Buteyko Breathing - Bud Weiss, 2008-09-15

[Blossom]

post 117540 Both these devices don't contain big enough reservoirs for CO2. So what I do is beyond a certain CP, recommend students put the device into a big jug or jar, cover the top with a towel, and use the device mouthpiece that way. The device in the big jar or jug concentrates the CO2 and makes the exercise much more effective.

Thanks for the explanation and helpful tip!

 

[Ahanu]

post 117534

now I'm focusing a lot on thyroid, temps and HRs. And working very hard to figure out how to fix diabetes type 2 without the breathing. Because most people won't do the breathing enough to fix diabetes type 2.

Any ideas?

No sorry, far beyond my knowledge

 

[Blossom]

post 117542

post 117534

now I'm focusing a lot on thyroid, temps and HRs. And working very hard to figure out how to fix diabetes type 2 without the breathing. Because most people won't do the breathing enough to fix diabetes type 2.

Any ideas?

No sorry, far beyond my knowledge

Biotin has been mentioned as a useful tool here on the forum. Bromocriptine has been approved as a drug treatment option. I believe haidut has posts on both.

 

[brandonk]

post 117483 Giraffe, the site Bud Weiss mentions is Buteyko Breath Reconditioning by Peter Kolb. It was the first place i came across a Ray Peat essay.

Thanks. I have changed it above.

Here's a link to the site by Peter Kolb:
http://www.members.westnet.com.au/pkolb/buteyko.htm

I wonder how the ideas of Buteyko and Broda Barnes might be reconciled. Butekyo advocated very slow pulse rates as a corollary of slow breathing rates, and a sign of good health, as shown by his charts:

Barnes regarded very slow pulse rates as a corollary of hypothyroidism. I also infer from putative email that Ray Peat would agree with Barnes that very slow pulse rates are typically an indicator of hypothyroidism.

 

[Ahanu]

A puls of 70 corresponds in the table with 40 CP which today is defenitly above average. Not to mention 60 CP( with 68 puls ) this is very hard to achieve and definitly a different kind of functioning. What i mean is its easy to get the puls to ,for example 60, but not with the correspodenting CP as in the table. So with this high CP the lower puls may be normal ?!

 

[brandonk]

A puls of 70 corresponds in the table with 40 CP which today is defenitly above average. Not to mention 60 CP( with 68 puls ) this is very hard to achieve and definitly a different kind of functioning. What i mean is its easy to get the puls to ,for example 60, but not with the correspodenting CP as in the table. So with this high CP the lower puls may be normal ?!

Yes, I see what you mean. I seem to have a control pause of about 60 and a pulse of 80-90 so I'm not sure what that means?

But the results at the far ends of the spectrum are the ones I wondered about as they are seemingly remarkably divergent!!

For example, in the image of his chart displayed above, Buteyko noted (in his own handwriting purportedly) that a pulse of 48 correlates with easily holding one's breath for three minutes, and being extremely "healthy"! (as further evidenced by a very high alveolar CO2 of 7.5%!!)


But in the thousands of patients that Barnes saw, a pulse of 48 correlated with being very hypothyroid, and being extremely "unhealthy"! (which might mean a very low alveolar CO2 of 4% or less!)

 

[Ahanu]

post 117550

A puls of 70 corresponds in the table with 40 CP which today is defenitly above average. Not to mention 60 CP( with 68 puls ) this is very hard to achieve and definitly a different kind of functioning. What i mean is its easy to get the puls to ,for example 60, but not with the correspodenting CP as in the table. So with this high CP the lower puls may be normal ?!

Yes, I see what you mean. I seem to have a control pause of about 60 and a pulse of 80-90 so I'm not sure what that means?

But the results at the far ends of the spectrum are the ones I wondered about as they are seemingly remarkably divergent!!

For example, in the image of his chart displayed above, Buteyko noted (in his own handwriting purportedly) that a pulse of 48 correlates with easily holding one's breath for three minutes, and being extremely "healthy"!

But in the thousands of patients that Barnes saw, a pulse of 48 correlated with being very hypothyroid, and being extremely "unhealthy"!

Hard to tell, buteyko had also thousands of patients and seems to think diffrent as long as the Cp is high. So barnes peolpe with 48 puls seemingly unhealthy may not have a 3 minutes control pause i guess.

And that are just standartisations.

60 cp and 80 puls is not realy fitting in this table though
Whats your max Pause?

 

[Ahanu]

At second thought i think 60 Cp and 80 puls still is not to much outside this box. Take a +|- 5 from both and u r near

 

[Ahanu]

Or better +|-10

 

[barefooter]

post 117532 So raising the CP should go hand in hand with raising the metabolism. This will take longer of course but raising either the CP or the metabolism is just a dead end.

This thought about raising CP and metabolism at the same time is vey relevant to some realizations I've been having lately. The more I experiment and especially with working on my breathing lately, I think the problems I've had when trying to raise metabolism have been with hyperventilation. For example, I have trouble with having caffeine, even if I have have it with a large meal or tons of milk and sugar. I feel amazing at first, and then I crash into this weird anxious uncomfortable feeling that seems to take hours to recover from. I always blamed the issues on poor liver function and glycogen depletion, but I can't reverse the issue by just eating a lot after a caffeine crash, which was always puzzling to me.

Now, as I'm becoming aware of just how easily I can slip into hyperventilation without even noticing, I think that may actually be my issue. I've also noticed lately that the uncomfortable caffeine crashes I get feel very similar to anxiety states I sometimes get into from mild hyperventilation, where it feels hard to breath and I just feel a strange sense of discomfort in my body. I'm wondering if when I ingest a metabolism boosting substance like caffeine, my body senses the increased need for oxygen, and I over compensate with mild hyperventilation, which after an hour or two causes me to crash into a state where I feel uncomfortable and breathing feels somewhat difficult. This would also explain why I would get the same crashes from coffee even when I was in my late teens and probably had very good liver function and glycogen storage.

I think I'll do an experiment with having coffee and paying very close attention to my breathing, and if I do get into a caffeine crash, to try and get out of it by reduced breathing, rather than eating.

 

[Ahanu]

@ barefooter

Interesting.. Share your outcomes of these experiment please

 

[brandonk]

post 117551

post 117550

A puls of 70 corresponds in the table with 40 CP which today is defenitly above average. Not to mention 60 CP( with 68 puls ) this is very hard to achieve and definitly a different kind of functioning. What i mean is its easy to get the puls to ,for example 60, but not with the correspodenting CP as in the table. So with this high CP the lower puls may be normal ?!

Yes, I see what you mean. I seem to have a control pause of about 60 and a pulse of 80-90 so I'm not sure what that means?

But the results at the far ends of the spectrum are the ones I wondered about as they are seemingly remarkably divergent!!

For example, in the image of his chart displayed above, Buteyko noted (in his own handwriting purportedly) that a pulse of 48 correlates with easily holding one's breath for three minutes, and being extremely "healthy"!

But in the thousands of patients that Barnes saw, a pulse of 48 correlated with being very hypothyroid, and being extremely "unhealthy"!

Hard to tell, buteyko had also thousands of patients and seems to think diffrent as long as the Cp is high. So barnes peolpe with 48 puls seemingly unhealthy may not have a 3 minutes control pause i guess.

And that are just standartisations.

60 cp and 80 puls is not realy fitting in this table though
Whats your max Pause?

I don't do max pause because I think it's stressful. But a two minute breath hold is not terribly uncomfortable for me.

Buteyko believed that the super healthy could withstand extreme cold. This would also not be consistent with Barnes' idea of hypothyroid people having low body temperature and being very sensitive to cold.

On the other hand, Buteyko did seem to advocate eating very little, or even fasting, and for Barnes (and for Ray Peat) eating and metabolizing very few calories in a day is a primary indicator of hypothyroidism. In my experience, eating frequently keeps my heart rate high, and fasting for any length of time makes my heart rate go down.

One way to reconcile the two is to consider brown fat tissue, which generate a lot of CO2 through uncoupled respiration and protect against a drop in body temperature during cold exposure. It's possible that Buteyko's techniques create extra brown fat, which compensates for the hypothyroidism brought about by eating and metabolizing very little, and the associated low heart rate.

 

[Ahanu]

Yes i think thats a the difference. Hypothyroid people are sensitive to cold where as people with high CP are not. Thats why i dont think people with high CP and so lower heart rate are like barnes hypothyroid people. Mind state also affects heart rate and other things so for the average people, barnes observation of a healthy heart rate may be correct but with increasing Co2 mental wellbeing etc there maybe be other factors come into play.
More brown fat...maybe..

So far i wouldnt nessesarily call people who have a high CP ( in my experience max CP after exhaling is mor than 3x higher than the Normal CP, but the is very subjective) hypothyroid if all the other factors of a healthy metabolism are present. Good sleep, energy, temperature,etc.

 

[Ahanu]

Maybe there are some hints from people who live at higher altidude and developed adaptions. Any one studied the effect on metabolism in high altidude apart from the Peat quote that they live longer?

 

[Ahanu]

Found this :The researchers speculated that mild hypoxia improves the way the heart functions and produces new blood vessels that increase blood flow for the heart. An alternative explanation presented by the authors is that increased exposure to ultraviolet radiation from the sun at higher altitudes increases the body's ability to produce vitamin D, which has beneficial effects on the heart.

 

[brandonk]

An enormous effort has gone into developing patentable drugs to stimulate brown adipose tissue as a treatment for diabetes and obesity, which has had little or no success to date.

But in 1968 it had already been learned that, at least in rats, hypercapnia and hypoxia (which are the Buteyko techniques) are very effective at stimulating brown adipose tissue:

Title The thermogenetic function of brown adipose tissue and the response of body temperature to hypoxia and hypercapnia in the cold and the warm-adapted rat.
Authors SZELENYI, Z.; DONHOFFER, S.
Journal Acta Physiologica Academiae Scientiarum Hungaricae 1968 Vol. 33 pp. 31-39
Record Number 19681407183
Abstract The effects of breathing 5 to 7% CO2 in air or 12% O2 in N2 on deep colonic temperature, temperature of the interscapular brown adipose tissue and that of the underlying longitudinal dorsal muscle were measured at ambient temperatures of 20° and 10°C in adult rats adapted to environmental temperatures of 5° and 30°C, respectively, oxygen consumption being recorded simultaneously. In response to exposure to hypercapnia or hypoxia the greatest and most rapid fall in temperature occurred in the brown adipose tissue in both the warm and the cold-adapted animals. Similarly, after reverting to air breathing, brown adipose tissue temperature rose more rapidly and to a higher level than either colonic or muscle temperature. Brown adipose tissue temperature exceeded colonic temperature to a greater extent in the warm-adapted group, before, during and after exposure to hypercapnia or hypoxia. The observations have revealed the almost immediate cessation or reduction of thermoregulatory heat production in brown adipose tissue in response to hypercapnia or hypoxia, and the immediate onset of increased heat production in that tissue after reverting to air breathing.

 

[tara]

I think Buteyko method's use of cold showers might be a contributor to increasing brown adipose tissue. It's not recommended unless/until people get their CP up a bit by other means first if it has been low. I imagine the practice of sleeping cooler, which ecstatic referred to upthread, may contribute to BAT too?

 

[Ahanu]

Yes, seems so :
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 091949.htm

 

[Ideonaut]

post 117341 The name of the person who advocated the use of 5% to 7% carbon dioxide in oxygen was Yandell Henderson."

Just wanted to mention it because the interviewer talked about 6 to 8 %.

My friend's mother is 96 and in a board and care, uses 100% oxygen at night, and is generally in very bad shape. I asked the nurse who runs the place if oxygen with 6-8% CO2 is available and she said no. Anyone out there know about such availability?

 

[ecstatichamster]

One thing Peat v. Buteyko is huge. Frequent eating is part of Peat's ideas, while it brings down your CP. It is probably the most antithetical thing about Peat v. Buteyko.

My CP is 28 now. It was about 35 or so when I awoke. But it fell after I ate. As usual. With this approach to eating, I eat a lot more than I used to, and my CP is lower as a result I think.