Buteyko Breathing - Bud Weiss, 2008-09-15

[Ahanu]

post 117545 Barnes regarded very slow pulse rates as a corollary of hypothyroidism. I also infer from putative email that Ray Peat would agree with Barnes that very slow pulse rates are typically an indicator of hypothyroidism

What do you think about this:

"The maximum heart rate oscillations at respiratory frequency occurred at approximately 0.1 Hz (six breaths per minute), the one frequency at which heart rate oscillates with breathing at a 0° phase relationship, i.e., exactly in phase. Thus breathing at this frequency produces both the highest amplitude of RSA and the most efficient gas exchange."

Average people are far away from this breathing pattern!
What if breathing in that way all day long, as buteyko or experienced meditators tend to do, will naturaly slow the heart beat cause of their much effizient gas exchange?

Would that explain the lower heartbeat while still having a healthy metabolism?

 

[Ahanu]

post 117631 With this approach to eating, I eat a lot more than I used to, and my CP is lower as a result I think.

Yes of course. I made the same observation. I think that less CP is the real CP. Giving the body all he needs and let him function at highest level is prior. To me at least

 

[brandonk]

post 117597 I think Buteyko method's use of cold showers might be a contributor to increasing brown adipose tissue. It's not recommended unless/until people get their CP up a bit by other means first if it has been low. I imagine the practice of sleeping cooler, which ecstatic referred to upthread, may contribute to BAT too?

Yes I agree, I've come across quite a bit of evidence that exposure to cold does stimulate the activity of previously invisible brown adipose tissue, and it seems suddenly to appear out of nowhere on imaging scans, and this seems to result from taking cold showers, sleeping in cooler temperatures or even just being in a cooler room for an extended time.

But this is another Buteyko idea (along with fasting and achieving a slow heart beat) that seems "Non Peat" since Ray Peat has described cold as a "stress", and upon exposure to cold, brown fat tissue does respond by making the "stress" hormone norepinephrine.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Everything about Buteyko is designed to promote some measure of stress, it seems.

Long pauses, air hunger help me the most and they are stressful. Sitting in a hard chair is better for my breathing than sinking into a soft chair. Sitting up while sleeping is better than lying down. Everything that is ascetic and austere seems to be Buteyko and helps breathing.

One thing that can be agreed on is sauna. Both Peat and Buteyko find it valuable.

 

[Ahanu]

I find the buteyko standard exercise very relaxing. I think there is no need for stressful buteyko exercise as we are mostly overstressed. But that differs from teacher to teacher. And the desire to make fast improvements as i am guilty to.

 

[brandonk]

Perhaps it would be appropriate to add here that one easy way to get the benefit of carbon dioxide, which Ray Peat discusses in the interview, is very simply to slow your breathing. In fact, you can see this at work if you put a pulse oximeter on your fingertip while you do your slow breathing. As you slow your breathing, the pulse oximter will show a "saturation" number that decreases. This fall in saturation typically means that your carbon dioxide level has gone up (unless you have emphysema or other serious respiratory problems).

http://erj.ersjournals.com/content/32/4 ... f_ipsecsha

Going much below 89% saturation might start to feel uncomfortable, and it's probably not needed. A very easy way to slow your breathing is just to breath through your nose while you pinch your nose a little with your fingers.

There is some evidence that slowing your breathing in this way does increase carbon dioxide in your body even after you go back to normal breathing, and that doing slow breathing for 3 hours a day for two weeks may be needed to achieve the desired effect.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15733779

You can do slow breathing any time, if you want to calm your nerves or just take a moment. This sort of slow breathing is now used by many athletes during training to achieve better performances, and though it's typically called hypercapnic or hypoxic training (and often uses extremely expensive equipment), it's essentially the same simple principle at work.

 

[Ahanu]

post 117545 Barnes regarded very slow pulse rates as a corollary of hypothyroidism. I also infer from putative email that Ray Peat would agree with Barnes that very slow pulse rates are typically an indicator of hypothyroidism.

I just read AT wikipedia that "With four to six weeks of targeted training the body systems can adapt to a higher perfusion of mitochondrial density for increased oxygen availability for the Krebs cycle, or tricarboxylic cycle, or the glycolitic cycle. [highlight=yellow][citation needed] This in turn leads to a lower resting heart rate, lower blood pressure, and increased resting or basal metabolic rate.[citationneeded]"[/highlight]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basal_metabolic_rate

So maybe Buteyko found a way to increase basal metabolic rate with at the same time lowering heart rate. This would explain the chart. Just imagine what years of that kind oft trainig processes would do.

 

[brandonk]

It wouldn't be possible to explain away low resting heart rate as a good thing, in Ray Peat's view of biology, no matter what wiki trolls say.

But as I tried to mention in an earlier post, the brown and "beige" adipose tissue, when activated by sufficient hypercapnia/hypoxia, ketones or cold, do generate large amounts of energy through uncoupled respiration. The adiopose tissue seem to take on its brown or beige color when the mitochondria become active.

It doesn't seem to take much to make the mitochondria active, according to the studies I've seen, perhaps two weeks of slow breathing for 3 hours a day. Probably about 80 to 120 grams of ketones in coconut oil might do the same thing:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23909803

 

[Ahanu]

post 118169 It wouldn't be possible to explain away low resting heart rate as a good thing, in Ray Peat's view of biology, no matter what wiki trolls say.

wikipedia and their moderators respond very well to reason and scientific research. you can can change any article anytime if science knowlegde supports your arguments.

post 118169 But as I tried to mention in an earlier post, the brown and "beige" adipose tissue, when activated by sufficient hypercapnia/hypoxia, ketones or cold, do generate large amounts of energy through uncoupled respiration.

this does not exclude the possibility i suggested and maybe there are even more mechanism that come in to play.

As i am interestet in both, ray peats and buteykos, ideas i am naturally looking for a common ground.

the unspoken law: " low puls = low metabolism" in any case, without exeption should be supported either by scientific studys or a reasenable biological or chemical explanation that shows that there can not be another case. Please share if you have this kind of information.

till now i could not find such a strong and simplistic proposition even in ray peats writings.

Please note that I do not suggest that it is generaly good to have a low puls. It has to be seen in context.

 

[ecstatichamster]

it is almost universally acknowledged with Buteyko exercises that after increasing CO2, your heart rate falls. It is in fact a hallmark of "formal" exercises that students record HR and control pause before and after. CP rises, and HR falls. QED.

I guess this is the Buteyko Peat Heart Rate Paradox :)

 

[Ahanu]

post 118250 I guess this is the Buteyko Peat Heart Rate Paradox

Haha. Love it

 

[brandonk]

post 118245

post 118169 It wouldn't be possible to explain away low resting heart rate as a good thing, in Ray Peat's view of biology, no matter what wiki trolls say.

wikipedia and their moderators respond very well to reason and scientific research. you can can change any article anytime if science knowlegde supports your arguments.

The content there overwhelmingly represents the views of corporations and governments who are well-known to pay "trolls" to spread disinformation.

In one glaring example, there is no Ray Peat article on wikipedia and those who have tried to create one have so far been blocked.

 

[Ahanu]

post 118280 The content there overwhelmingly represents the views of corporations and governments who are well-known to pay "trolls" to spread disinformation.

That is an interesting view regarding that wikipedia is a frequently used source in this forum. Even by the moderators.

 

[Ahanu]

post 118280 The content there overwhelmingly represents the views of corporations and governments who are well-known to pay "trolls" to spread disinformation.

That is an interesting view regarding that wikipedia is a frequently used source in this forum. Even by the moderators.

 

[Ahanu]

post 118280 The content there overwhelmingly represents the views of corporations and governments who are well-known to pay "trolls" to spread disinformation.

That is an interesting view regarding that wikipedia is a frequently used source in this forum. Even by the moderators.

 

[tara]

post 118339

post 118280 The content there overwhelmingly represents the views of corporations and governments who are well-known to pay "trolls" to spread disinformation.

That is an interesting view regarding that wikipedia is a frequently used source in this forum. Even by the moderators.

I agree that wikipedia is likely unduly influenced by corporate interests in some areas. Also just by commonly held views that that aren't always well founded. I sometimes refer to it, but my intention is to only do so for uncontroversial information. If I get this wrong sometimes - eg if I post links to wikipedia articles that seem to be way off from reality - please let me know.

 

[tara]

post 118250 it is almost universally acknowledged with Buteyko exercises that after increasing CO2, your heart rate falls. It is in fact a hallmark of "formal" exercises that students record HR and control pause before and after. CP rises, and HR falls. QED.

I guess this is the Buteyko Peat Heart Rate Paradox :)

IIUC, the product of resting heartrate and pulse pressure is roughly (but not reliably) proportional to/predictive of BMR. Maybe the variable CO2 set point amongst subjects is part of what makes this not completely reliable?

The normal correlation between metabolic rate and heartrate arises because the body needs more oxygen to produce more energy from more fuel, right? I know the blood is supplying sugar and other nutrients, but isn't oxygen usually the main rate-affecting/critical requirement?

If higher CO2 level and higher CP makes for more efficient delivery of oxygen, as Buteyko and the Bohr Effect theory says, then why wouldn't it be possible to have greater oxygen delivery with higher CP and higher BMR and lower heart-rate?

 

[tara]

post 117593 But in 1968 it had already been learned that, at least in rats, hypercapnia and hypoxia (which are the Buteyko techniques) are very effective at stimulating brown adipose tissue:

IIUC, Buteyko considered hypocapnia to contribute to ill-health in a multitude of ways, including by reducing oxygen delivery to tissues - ie by causing tissue hypoxia. He aimed to get people to stop hyperventilating and resume more 'normal' breathing, thereby restoring oxygen delivery.
As I see it, Buteyko's aim, with his methods, was to restore optimal CO2 levels - eucapnia - and tissue oxygenation. Not hypercapnia or hypoxia.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I ran into a roadblock with Buteyko. The most common roadblocks are as follows.

Anything over around 25 CP is very difficult for people who are quite sick to begin with. But often this is enough to alleviate many or most of the symptoms.

The next roadblock is in the low 30s, around 33. In my experience very few people get over that. Maybe 35 or 36, but not much over that.

My CP now is in the 35 to 45 range, and this next roadblock is where I am now. We take all claims that a 100% healthy person has a CP of 60. But I do not think that is really true, because number one, it isn't normal to have such ICP in this world. And number two, people with a CP of 60 still have health issues.

I had really really bad health issues that were largely resolved with Buteyko. But I think that there are probably still some issues left, plus I am a bit older.

I've noticed my temperatures are quite low, and working on that and taking extra thyroid etc. The point being, there are limitations to what you can do with Buteyko. Sometimes, it is thought that the roadblocks are from the teeth, gums and similar focal infections. I do have one of those that I'm aware of right now. Perhaps that is a reason I cannot get my CP hire. Who knows.

 

[Ahanu]

post 119458 I agree that wikipedia is likely unduly influenced by corporate interests in some areas. Also just by commonly held views that that aren't always well founded. I sometimes refer to it, but my intention is to only do so for uncontroversial information.

Wikipedia has to deal with a lot oft pressure from different sides. Take the homepathy article for example. A billion Dollar industry with its followers still fails to corrupt the article.

Buteyko's article, as he offers a method that can reduce the use of pharmaceuticals, should with this thinking also be corrupted! But the article seems rather neutral.

A reason why there is still no Ray Peat article may be found here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability

Of course, any information should be taken with caution but just dismissing a source as corrupt in cases were it don't fits our personal view is too simple.

And who decides what is uncontroversial and what not? Our biased view?

Maybe we find a way to get Ray Peat to Wikipedia. That would be a hugh and desirable achievment. Maybe People who already tried it could open a new thread with the responses from the wikipedias autors and together with all the Peat enthusiasts we will find a way ?