CARNIVORES vs VEGETARIANS

[Rinse & rePeat]

I agree.

A vegetarian can be just as healthy as a carnivore. Just because vegetables, legumes, grains, nuts and seeds are vegetarian doesn’t mean all vegetarians consume them, and just because someone is vegetarian doesn’t mean they consume less animal protein than those who consume meat. I consume a vegetarian diet, but also far more animal protein than those around me who eat meat, and as much animal protein as many men more than twice my size. My muscle definition and body composition are far greater with dairy than with meat/seafood, likely because it’s less catabolic to my body. Unlike dairy, meat crashes my blood sugar and triggers stress hormones so it seems to me that whether meat is beneficial or not is highly individual. I will say, however, that I don’t believe vegan and vegetarian diets are automatically more ethical than diets that include meat, but that’s a whole other discussion.

To your point I do think muscle meat is aging. It is the bone broth and liver that would keep me from being vegetarian. Those two things have made such a noticeable difference in my skin, muscle tone and overall health. I can live with without the muscle meats.

"50% of the animal is glycine and collagen. ancient cultures ate the whole animal and prized the organs and skin, and gave most of the muscle meat to the dogs." -Ray Peat

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

I think when vegetarians and carnivores are compared the comparison is made at the extreme end of each diet. It seems that the organs and gelatin are where the value is, and the carnivores we see that zwez mentioned, eating out of balance with lots of muscle meat and no gelatin or liver looks just as bad as unhealthy vegetarians eating out of balance.


"In the traditional diet, rather than just eating muscle meats, all the animal parts were used. Since collagen makes up about 50% of the protein in an animal, and is free of tryptophan, this means that people were getting about half as much tryptophan in proportion to other amino acids when they used foods such as “head cheese,” ox-tails, and chicken feet." -Ray Pea

 

[Jennifer]

It is the bone broth and liver that would keep me from being vegetarian. Those two things have made such a noticeable difference in my skin, muscle tone and overall health. I can live with without the muscle meats.

I believe that. I don’t have much experience with liver since I never cared for it but when I still consumed meat, I found gelatin to be as hydrating for my skin as fruit. Once I started getting most of my calories from raw goat’s milk, my previous SIBO induced redness vanished and my skin became incredibly soft—the softest I recall it ever being—so for whatever reason, my skin loves dairy.

 

[zwez]

Carnivores as in big meat eaters? Because I eat meat and I don't look anything like you descibe. When I went on the Blood Type Diet 10 years ago I had to eat more meat and it got rid of my long face.

You started a thread on carnivores and you don’t know what a carnivore is?

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

You started a thread on carnivores and you don’t know what a carnivore is?

You must not have understood my question. As I said I eat meat and don't have tge appearance you spoke of, so I asked if you meant a meat eater in general, like myself and the man I posted in the picture or the extreme version as in the Carnivore Diet, Keto and Atkins. Here is me yesterday without make up, at 58 years old, and I don't eat ANY vegetables or starches and live on proteins primarily from dairy, beef, lamb and shellfish.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

View: https://youtu.be/Ni0_iTowDoE

 

[zwez]

You must not have understood my question. As I said I eat meat and don't have tge appearance you spoke of, so I asked if you meant a meat eater in general, like myself and the man I posted in the picture or the extreme version as in the Carnivore Diet, Keto and Atkins. Here is me yesterday without make up, at 58 years old, and I don't eat ANY vegetables or starches and live on proteins primarily from dairy, beef, lamb and shellfish.

I was referring to carnivores as exclusively meat/organ eaters. There is some redness around your nose and cheeks area and some puffiness. Otherwise your eyes don't seem stressed like most carnivores do.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

I was referring to carnivores as exclusively meat/organ eaters. There is some redness around your nose and cheeks area and some puffiness. Otherwise your eyes don't seem stressed like most carnivores do.

I had "glow" from my manuka honey mask two hours earlier. Otherwise I eat beef or lamb maybe twice a week and corn and soy free wings once every week or two, otherwise I eat mostly shellfish, homemade gelatinous beef bone broth, raw milk, cheese and lots of raw honey, sugar & homemade fruit juices. My face use to be red and oily, my whole life, being heavy on grains and conventional meat, chicken and dairy. I got off of grains and started buyin grass fed meats and dairy about 7 to years ago and what a difference!

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

"A new study based on data from almost 55,000 people – which included 2,000 vegans – has found that those who say no to meat are 43% more likely break a bone.

Published in BMC Medicine, the study, which followed participants for 18 years on average, showed 3,941 fractures occurred in total with the majority of bones breaking in the hip. But perhaps the most startling find was that the risk of fracturing boneswas 2.3 times higher for vegans against people who ate meat." -Men'sHealth.com

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

"Since bacteria in the rumens of cows destroy unsaturated fatty acids, but don't harm vitamin E, it seems reasonable to suppose that beef and milk would have a better ratio of vitamin E to unsaturated fats than do the plants eaten by the cows." -Ray Peat

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

"Toxic pesticides are found in higher concentrations in the urine and fat of slaughtered animals than in their livers, since the livers are detoxifying the chemicals and causing them to be excreted. Presumably, the animals' livers will perform the same detoxification reactions with the phytotoxicants that occur naturally in their diet." -Ray Peat

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

"The younger versions of below-ground vegetables (i.e. new potatoes or baby beets for example) contain less starch and more sugar compared to the mature plants. White potatoes are a good source of protein especially for vegetarians." -Ray Peat

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

"Leafy vegetables are a very rich source of magnesium, but they are also a potential source of large amounts of lead and other toxins. In 1960, many people, including the U.S.government, were advocating the use of a largely vegetarian diet for children, because of the amount of radioactive strontium in milk. I compared the amount of strontium in a diet of vegetables that would provide the necessary quantity of calcium and protein, and it was clear that vegetables were the worst source of radioactive strontium, because their ratio of strontium to calcium was much higher than the ratio in milk. The cows were concentrating calcium and protein from the contaminated plant foods, eliminating much of the strontium. This principle still applies to the toxins that are currently found in the U.S. food supply." -Ray Peat

 

[aliml]

WHY SWITCHING TO A VEGAN DIET MAKES YOU FEEL BETTER​

By Momagnon

We’ve all heard the following story before: someone was overweight, sick, and generally frustrated with life. But then they switched to a vegan diet and suddenly they felt like a completely new person.
The vegan diet helped them lose weight, increase their energy to almost forgotten kindergarten levels, reawakened their sex drive, and gave them amazing glowing skin, just to name a few benefits.
There are even people who report having healed some serious diseases. And with “serious” I mean true heavyweights such as diabetes, heart disease, and even cancer!
And not only that. The lab tests at the doctor’s office show the same results:

• improved insulin sensitivity
• lower inflammation levels
• lower blood pressure
• lower triglycerides

So even the doctors nod in agreement and approve of their patient’s new way of eating, even though they have just lost a paying customer.
And if you’re still not convinced, the new vegans will smash your objections with their brand new Instagram accounts showcasing their amazing transformation with before and after pictures.
So even I, who is currently following a carnivore diet, have to admit that a lot of those new vegans look pretty damn healthy.
So why don’t I just ditch The Dark Side of eating meat and instead embrace the vegan diet for my own health, for the animals, and for the planet?
Oh, if it only were that easy.

My initial experiences with veganism were great!​

Ten years ago I did exactly that. In 2010, I started eating a vegan diet, raw vegan to be more precise. (Yes, type it in the comments: “Mo, YouWereDoingItWrong™. Raw vegan doesn’t work.”)

I was really excited about the positive health changes that I got. My energy levels improved significantly, my acne that I had been battling for years cleared up entirely, and I was finally not getting sick all the time like all those years before.
So believe me: I was just as excited about veganism as some of you are. I thought the raw vegan diet was THE solution to everything, though I never adopted a nickname like “Rawritz” as so many others did with their names. Yes, this was really a thing.

However, over the years I’ve seen and felt the downsides of both the raw vegan and the cooked vegan diet.
While some people I’ve met have successfully cured themselves of cancer with a raw vegan diet, I’ve also personally known two people who were following this diet for a decade but still developed cancer and died at the end.
Today’s post is not about all the negative long-term effects of the vegan diet (I will cover that in the future). Instead, I’m going to explain to you the underlying mechanism of the vegan honeymoon period.

This post will be one of the most important pieces of diet information you will ever read.
​

I know this is a pretty bold statement for a brand new blogger in his very first blog post.
Read the full article and judge me after you have read it. Okay?
The following concept will give you the ability to categorize all of those conflicting diet concepts out there and integrate them into the bigger picture.
So many people I talk to these days have entered a stage of “dietary nihilism” where they throw their hands in the air and say: “Every day you hear something different. One day it’s low-carb. The next day it’s high-carb veganism. And every week there is a new scapegoat food that’s vilified. You know what? I’m just gonna eat whatever the hell I want!”
In other words: They are completely confused about eating the right diet and have, therefore, just given up.

So let’s put the High-Carb vs. Low-Carb Paradox into perspective.
​

So far we know that on both ends of the spectrum many people experience amazing transformations in their health and their body composition.
For some weird reason, both of those opposing approaches do work. And this weird reason does have a name. It’s called the Randle Cycle, named after its discoverer Philip Randle. [1]
The Randle Cycle describes the phenomenon that carbohydrates and fatty acids compete for absorption. If both are present in the bloodstream at the same time, they can cancel each other out and cause metabolic problems.

Randle Cycle: Fatty acids block the metabolization of glucose and vice versa.

When fatty acids enter the muscle they block the influx of glucose. As a result, glucose gets converted into fat and enters the fat tissue. The glucose influx into the fat tissue, in turn, blocks the release of fatty acids into the bloodstream.
When you go on a low-carb high-fat diet, your blood glucose levels will be so low that there is no excess glucose that needs to be converted into fat. Your muscles can comfortably burn fatty acids and your fat tissue can easily release fatty acids which makes your fat depots shrink over time.

As a result, people on a low-carb high-fat diet lose weight and improve their metabolic health markers.
Conversely, when you go on a high-carb low-fat diet, you won’t have that many fatty acids in your bloodstream. Now all the glucose can easily enter the muscle without being blocked by fatty acids. When your muscles can burn all of the glucose, there won’t be any leftover glucose that your body would have to convert into fat.

This means that your fat tissue can release fatty acids without them being blocked by glucose anymore.
As a result, people on a high-carb low-fat diet also lose weight and improve their metabolic health markers.
You could think of your body as a car with a special engine that can run on both diesel and gas. The only thing you have to take care of is to never mix diesel and gas together.

So if you mix sugar and fat, this is when problems start to occur. If you cut out either carbs or fat, then you deactivate the Randle Cycle, which will improve your health and lower your weight.

Now we can understand why so many new vegans feel so amazing when they start the vegan diet. The vegan diet is generally on the higher-carb lower-fat side of the spectrum.

This deactivation of the Randle Cycle will always help with weight loss and lead to metabolic improvements.
And yes, you will become more insulin sensitive on a high-carb low-fat diet. Read that last sentence again.
When your cells don’t have to deal with sugar and fat at the same time they will become very insulin sensitive.
In fact, a high-carb low-fat diet can make you even more insulin sensitive than a low-carb high-fat diet. The latter will also make you more insulin sensitive, but your cells will go into a so-called state of physiological insulin resistance (not to be confused with pathological insulin resistance). Your cells do this to preserve the little blood glucose that’s left for the brain.

Your body can easily switch off this physiological insulin resistance once you re-introduce carbs into your diet.
On a high-carb low-fat diet, you will become extremely insulin sensitive because your cells are only dealing with sugar but not fat. And since your insulin receptors are like muscles – the more you use them the more effective they become – you will become more insulin sensitive on a high-carb low-fat diet.

And more insulin sensitivity not only correlates with weight loss. The less weight you carry around, the less inflammation you have to deal with. This is because fat tissue produces pro-inflammatory adipokines such as leptin. [2, 3]

When your skin cells become more insulin sensitive and less inflamed you will notice this in overall better-looking skin.
So there you have it. The reason why new vegans temporarily feel better and lose weight and improve all their metabolic markers is that they are finally deactivating the Randle Cycle which had constantly been activated during all those years on the Standard American Diet.

So let’s recap:
Carbs alone don’t lead to insulin resistance.
Fat alone doesn’t lead to insulin resistance.
It’s the sugar-fat combo (aka Standard American Diet) that leads to insulin resistance.

But why is nobody talking about this? Because everyone has their own agenda and doesn’t want to admit that the opposition might also be right in some cases. Not only the vegans but also the low-carbers and some carnivores create their own echo chambers where they ban opposing viewpoints.

This lack of interest in any dialogue and retreating to echo chambers instead isn’t just exclusive to the nutrition scene. You can see this everywhere on the internet, especially in politics. But I digress.
So does this mean that I recommend a vegan diet?
Hell no!

This vegan honeymoon period doesn’t last forever. Sure, your metabolic health improves but as soon as you’ve depleted your nutrient reservoirs it will only be downhill from there.
So I do acknowledge that a high-carb low-fat diet can work long term. But it must include animal products. And it must not be zero-fat. You absolutely need animal products and a certain baseline of fatty acids to make a high-carb low-fat diet work in the long run.

A good example of a sustainable high-carb low-fat diet which includes animal products is the Japanese diet. And unsurprisingly, Japan has one of the highest life expectancies in the world. [4]
So if you only do the one-month Veganuary challenge and return to eating animal products afterward you can indeed improve your metabolic health. (As long as you don’t eat vegan junk food.)
In the meantime, I’m doing the World Carnivore Month challenge.

So keep in mind. Never become dogmatic about your diet. Always stay open-minded so in case things don’t work out as expected you retain your ability to look at it objectively and adjust your diet as needed.
This applies not only to the vegan diet but also the carnivore diet and every other diet concept in between.

WHY SWITCHING TO A VEGAN DIET MAKES YOU FEEL BETTER – momagnon.com

momagnon.com

 

[Vanset]

protein is not that much of an issue on a vegan diet believe it or not, you can squeeze by, the real b**** to get is zinc. i think if someone has insulin sensitivity problems then a 99% plant based diet with 1-2 eggs and a daily oyster can be beneficial long term.

also you can eat a mixed diet and simply not excessively mix carbs with fat in the same meals. for example; most of your carbs during daylight hours and protein + fat + a tiny bit of carbs (to avoid glucogenesis) in the later hours of the day.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

I saved notes from a renown cancer specialist, doctor Nick Gonzales, said in an interview many years ago, that patients with immune cancers like leukemia, Lymphoma, myeloma and sarcoma cancers do better on a high fat high meat diet, while the typical solid tumor cancers like breast, lung, stomach, pancreas, uterus, colon, liver, ovaries and prostate cancers do better on a more vegetarian diet. That might very well may be a big reason some people die and some people don't of their cancers, they are paired with the right or the wrong diets.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

"While the negative effects of veganism and vegetarianism on bone health have been known for some time (mostly due to the state of protein deficiency they induce), the fact that pescatarians also had increased risk of bone fracture is somewhat surprising. That is, until one considers the fact that fish is full of PUFA that, while that PUFA is of the less-inflammatory omega-3 variety, has known detrimental effects on bone morphology and growth."

Compared to meat eaters, vegans / vegetarian / pescatarians have higher risk of fractures

The study just hit major news outlets and is generating a lot of "controversy". Why putting that word in quotes? Because, as I mentioned in several other posts, that word has become a euphemism for "embarrassing truth" that mainstream medicine (and often society at large) will do just about...

raypeatforum.com

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Growth, body composition, and cardiovascular and nutritional risk of 5 to 10 yr old children consuming vegetarian, vegan, or omnivore diets

ABSTRACT Background: Plant-based diets (PBDs) are increasingly recom- mended for human and planetary health. However, comprehensive evidence on the health effects of PBDs in children remains incomplete, particularly in vegans. Objectives: To quantify differences in body composition, cardio-...

raypeatforum.com

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

"Since bacteria in the rumens of cows destroy unsaturated fatty acids, but don't harm vitamin E, it seems reasonable to suppose that beef and milk would have a better ratio of vitamin E to unsaturated fats than do the plants eaten by the cows." -Ray Peat

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

"While nutritional reference tables often show fruits and potatoes as having about 2% protein content, while nuts, grains, and legumes are shown with a high protein content, often in the range of 15% to 40%, they neglect to point out that fruits and potatoes have a very high water content, while that of the seeds is extremely low. The protein content of milk is about 3%, which according to the charts would suggest that it is inferior to beans and grains. In fact, the protein value of grain is negligible, mainly because seeds contain their protein in a storage form, that is extremely rich in nitrogen, but poor in essential amino acids. Special preparation is needed to reduce the toxicity of seeds, and in the case of beans, these methods are never very satisfactory." -Ray Peat