CCK Antagonist?

[SarahBeara]

I have been suffering stomach problems now for over a year with concurrent anxiety.

From my research on my symptoms the likely cause of both issues is bile reflux into the stomach (am soon to have a 24hr PH study to confirm this.)

One way of combatting the issue is to take a CCK antagonist, one example of this would be xanax, and even tiny doses (0.25mg) of this bring me great relief the following day. However I'm acutely aware of the long term addictive properties of xanax as well as the long term affects of benzos in memory issues, so if possible I'd like to find an alternative.

Googling this only leads to research chemicals, nothing on the market.

Does any pharmacy types know of a CCK antagonist that preferably doesn't have effects on the GABA receptors?

 

[Pointless]

blocking CCK would prevent excretion of many toxins including excess copper and estrogen. Have you tried eating more fiber to absorb the bile acids? Are you taking anything that can increase bile excretion like taurine or estrogen blockers?

 

[SarahBeara]

Thanks for your answer, I didn't know that about CCK!

Fiber (insoluble or soluble) seems to make things worse. Have tried taurine but it didn't make any noticeable difference.

What estrogen blocker would you suggest?

 

[Pointless]

I think you misunderstood. CCK is responsible for stimulating the gallbladder to secrete bile and the pancrease to secrete enzymes.

From Wikipedia:

"Cholecystokinin (CCK or CCK-PZ; from Greek chole, "bile"; cysto, "sac"; kinin, "move"; hence, move the bile-sac (gallbladder)) is a peptide hormone of the gastrointestinal system responsible for stimulating the digestion of fat andprotein. Cholecystokinin, previously called pancreozymin, is synthesized and secreted by enteroendocrine cells in the duodenum,[3] the first segment of the small intestine, and causes the release of digestive enzymes and bile from thepancreas and gallbladder, respectively."

That's why I was worried about blocking CCK. If you were to stop your gallbladder from secreting bile, or even reduce its function, it could potentially harm a few things:

digestive transit time (bile helps move things along)
elimination of toxins including estrogen (many toxins are excreted from the liver through bile where they exit with feces)
absorption of fats, especially fat soluble vitamins (A, D, K2, E)
bile stasis can lead to gallstones which can be painful

Now maybe you just need the right dose of a CCK-blocker, to make things normal. That could be worth an experiment, but it would be difficult to tell whether your gallbladder simply isn't functioning until symptoms start to appear. Maybe it's a mechanical issue, like the sphincter between your stomach and duodenum is not strong enough? Salt and potassium might improve smooth muscle tone, but I'm grasping at straws.

The reason I asked about taurine and estrogen blockers is because taurine can increase bile production and estrogen blockers can increase the strength of gallbladder contraction. Those things could make your situation worse, which is why I wondered if you were taking them.

Sorry I'm not able to help you any more, but I just wanted to make sure you understood the risks with blocking bile secretion.

 

[SarahBeara]

I appreciate your info all the same. It does indeed seem that the problem is further downstream to CCK, as in a reason why my body is overproducing it. I'll continue my investigations and update the thread if I get anywhere.

 

[BigYellowLemon]

I have been suffering stomach problems now for over a year with concurrent anxiety.

From my research on my symptoms the likely cause of both issues is bile reflux into the stomach (am soon to have a 24hr PH study to confirm this.)

One way of combatting the issue is to take a CCK antagonist, one example of this would be xanax, and even tiny doses (0.25mg) of this bring me great relief the following day. However I'm acutely aware of the long term addictive properties of xanax as well as the long term affects of benzos in memory issues, so if possible I'd like to find an alternative.

Googling this only leads to research chemicals, nothing on the market.

Does any pharmacy types know of a CCK antagonist that preferably doesn't have effects on the GABA receptors?

The Positives and Negatives of CCK and Its Role In Lectin Sensitivity - Selfhacked

If you want to keep CCK down, minimize your consumption of fat, starches, and protein. Of course, eat these things, but keep them in moderation.

Capsaicin (chili pepper) also helps dull the symptoms of excess CCK.

A CCK antagonist will probably not work in the long-run, and will be more trouble than it's worth.

Best wishes.

 

[SarahBeara]

Thanks! It's funny spicy foods always do digest pretty well for me so that's a great tip!

 

[BigYellowLemon]

Thanks! It's funny spicy foods always do digest pretty well for me so that's a great tip!

Yeah, I suspect I have high CCK, and I've always loved spicy food, rarely do I get indigestion from spicy foods.

 

[SarahBeara]

Yeah, I suspect I have high CCK, and I've always loved spicy food rarely do I get indigestion from spicy foods.

It's so weird isn't it? Because almost every digestive disorder seems to be made worse by spicy food.

 

[BigYellowLemon]

It's so weird isn't it? Because almost every digestive disorder seems to be made worse by spicy food.

Yeah I remember as a kid and early teen hearing about people getting heartburn or indigestion or whatnot from eating a lot of spicy food, I was always so confused. I think cayenne is great, not only from how it's been used in the past, but how it works.

Animals live longer and remain more youthful and have a stronger metabolism, if they are lacking the receptor that capsaicin binds to. Seeing that there's no easily available TRPV1 antagonist, I think it'd be wise that we keep consuming cayenne

Also, it's delicious.

 

[SarahBeara]

Yeah I remember as a kid and early teen hearing about people getting heartburn or indigestion or whatnot from eating a lot of spicy food, I was always so confused. I think cayenne is great, not only from how it's been used in the past, but how it works.

Animals live longer and remain more youthful and have a stronger metabolism, if they are lacking the receptor that capsaicin binds to. Seeing that there's no easily available TRPV1 antagonist, I think it'd be wise that we keep consuming cayenne

Also, it's delicious.

Yes when I went to the doctor I got a diet sheet with a recommendation to avoid spicy food which never made any sense to me!

So if those animals don't have the receptor that binds capsaicin that means it circulates for longer right?

Whatever justifies my continuing love of Franks hot sauce (the one made with only peppers, garlic and salt) then that's great!

That self-hacked article is super interesting. I'm considering buying the PEMF device. I've had moderate success (palliating rather than cure) with a small infrared torch, so seems like that device would help too.

You can place it on the neck to stimulate the thyroid so that might be cool to experiment with. I find anything that increases appetite generally positive for my metabolism.

 

[BigYellowLemon]

Yes when I went to the doctor I got a diet sheet with a recommendation to avoid spicy food which never made any sense to me!

So if those animals don't have the receptor that binds capsaicin that means it circulates for longer right?

Whatever justifies my continuing love of Franks hot sauce (the one made with only peppers, garlic and salt) then that's great!

That self-hacked article is super interesting. I'm considering buying the PEMF device. I've had moderate success (palliating rather than cure) with a small infrared torch, so seems like that device would help too.

You can place it on the neck to stimulate the thyroid so that might be cool to experiment with. I find anything that increases appetite generally positive for my metabolism.

From what I've read and heard about people's experience's with doctors, it seems to me that "doctors" generally have no clue what they're talking about. Recommending you don't eat cayenne reminds me of the "pseudo-science" that doctor's generally like to talk ***t about.

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I think animals with no TRPV1 having capsaicin in their system longer is besides the point.

It's more like this:

TRPV1 let's calcium (and sodium, maybe others too) into the cell. This can kill the cell, I think. Basically TRPV1 is stressful to cells, it can kill them or damage their metabolism, from my point of view.

Mice genetically engineered to have no TRPV1 live 10% and have more "youthful" metabolisms.

Here's a post by haidut about it: Why Ray Peat may be advising against (strong) spices

haidut recommends staying away from spices. I disagree with him on this. Considering so many cultures use cayenne, and other spices similar to it, I think it should be generally safe to use cayenne.

With long-term use of cayenne (capsaicin), we should be able to down-regulate TRPV1, which might be able to give us more "youthful" metabolisms.

However, some people seem to be sensitive to capsaicin. haidut mentioned that it messes with his gut. It's all down to how you personally feel on it. I, personally, feel pretty good when using cayenne. If you feel good, keep using it I say.

Capsaicin also has some other cool effects. It can apparently attenuate H. Pylori infection, and it might preferentially kill cancer cells. This makes sense. It probably slightly damages all cells, and cancer cells are already pretty weak, so it would kill them, while leaving normal cells alive, and the normal cells might be stronger than before the capsaicin exposure. It works kinda like caffeine in a way, via calcium influx.

Also, capsaicin upregulates UCP's, so ostensibly more uncoupling!

And I love Frank's red hot, ahaha it's awesome, my favorite hot sauce.

Also, I would not recommend buying a PEMF. I would buy more IR lights, try different frequencies. PEMF is pretty expensive, and it doesn't seem like it actually directly improves cell metabolism. It might improve your symptoms, but it seems like a band-aid fix, not a cure.

With the money for a PEMF, you could buy many other things that might be more effective. Research more about PEMF before buying. But if it seems like it's worth it, go ahead I guess. I wish you luck.

 

[SarahBeara]

Thanks so much for the really comprehensive reply!

 

[Andy316]

@BigYellowLemon Very interesting thread, I too seem to have issues with high CCK. Would some spicy pickle with starch (Boiled white rice) be effective in keeping CCK down? I seem to get high serotinin issues with resistant starches (latest offender being white rice) and hoping I can consume it again without issues.