Complicated, Please Help Me Sleep Better

[CaliforniaKat]

I take Mirtazapine 7.5 mg, and have since June. I put the sequence of events in my journal, but a lot has happened.

I tried to wean off Mirt over about 2 months, and had some pretty ugly withdrawal. I had to reinstate. I've been back on that dose for a little over a week. Sleep is interrupted, and I wake early in the a.m. to panic-like symptoms. Sugar and salt don't put me back to sleep.

I'm also having anxiety and panic attacks during the day, which wasn't happening before I tried to or during my wean. I know, it is complicated.

What is going on? How do I restore my sleep pattern? I eat or drink something before bed. I've tried higher fat and lower fat with sugar, like ice cream or salted and sugared milk. Salty OJ, potato chips fried in coconut oil. Etc.

I really would rather not take the Mirt at all. Sleep sucks either way. And I really just want to sleep.

I currently don't take anything else but thyroid. I know my liver is not storing glycogen well, and I have several symptoms of high estrogen. Have no idea whether cortisol is high or low, and tests are expensive.

Diet is still being tweaked but I do track with cronometer. Get enough cals, nutrition is pretty good. Calcium is always at least 1:1 with phosphorus. I take Epsom salt baths pretty regularly. I use mushrooms or carrot salad daily.

**I have posted some similar threads, so yes this likely overlaps some of those. Sorry for the overlap but I am really getting frustrated**

 

[Stilgar]

I find Benadryl the most helpful for sleep. Have you tried it? Also, how’s your magnesium intake?

 

[CaliforniaKat]

I find Benadryl the most helpful for sleep. Have you tried it? Also, how’s your magnesium intake?

I don't take oral magnesium, but I do take Epsom salt baths regularly and use magnesium spray. Mirtazipine at low doses works like an antihistamine.

 

[Runenight201]

Bacon/eggs/fruit/beans/rice/potatoes/veggies

Try a big ole proper meal. My sleep sucked when I tried to do the whole sugared milk/ice cream crap before bed.

Big wholesome meals like that keep my belly happy and my sleep sound.

 

[Cirion]

same problem. I have not fully resolved it. Some things that have helped to some degree or another though. Some of these will be overlaps of what you've tried.

- magnesium
- thyroid
- tape mouth shut or use chin strap while sleeping
- salt or baking soda
- fat, sugar, & quality protein before bed (dairy or gelatin protein)
- keep bedroom sufficiently warm, and some light (not pitch dark) but make sure light doesn't shine right in your eyes (as that signals your body to stay awake) have the light more in the corner of the room or something, out of sight I find best.
- eating enough calories / regulating blood sugar in the day. this is one of the most important, you can do everything else right and still suffer bad sleep if this is not done right.

Without seeing your diet I'm gonna venture a guess that it's probably insufficient calories during the day, and/or mineral problems / CO2 retention problems. We often think we are eating enough, but I have found I actually have to really be careful not to under-eat. Super easy to do if I don't track.

 

[CaliforniaKat]

same problem. I have not fully resolved it. Some things that have helped to some degree or another though. Some of these will be overlaps of what you've tried.

- magnesium
- thyroid
- tape mouth shut or use chin strap while sleeping
- salt or baking soda
- fat, sugar, & quality protein before bed (dairy or gelatin protein)
- keep bedroom sufficiently warm, and some light (not pitch dark) but make sure light doesn't shine right in your eyes (as that signals your body to stay awake) have the light more in the corner of the room or something, out of sight I find best.
- eating enough calories / regulating blood sugar in the day. this is one of the most important, you can do everything else right and still suffer bad sleep if this is not done right.

Without seeing your diet I'm gonna venture a guess that it's probably insufficient calories during the day, and/or mineral problems / CO2 retention problems. We often think we are eating enough, but I have found I actually have to really be careful not to under-eat. Super easy to do if I don't track.

I actually read your posts a lot. I do eat 2500 cals a day, sometimes more, and I do track. I'm still working on the food part, sometimes meals make me cold still. Sometimes thyroid meds make me cold even when broken into several pieces.

I tried higher sugar and lower fat recently and dont think I can do that yet. Sleep still sucks even after adding fat back in. Constipation is often a problem too. Still wondering starch or no starch too.

Right now a typical day looks like this:
1 cup milk, 1/2 cup coconut water, salt, gelatin, tsp instant coffee, tbsp hot cocoa mix AMD 1-2 tsp coconut oil shortly after I get up.

4-5 oz cottage cheese or 1-2 ounces of cheese with cherries and homemade applesauce

Leftover from dinner the night before, or cooked shrimp with rice

Coffee with maple syrup and milk, coconut oil and salt

Dinner is often meat with gelatin and potatoes or sweet potatoes. Sometimes liver 1x per week), tacos with homemade corn tortillas, seafood chowder, sometimes spaghetti with meatballs. Always add gelatin to meat meals.

I sip salted OJ through the day. I aim for 3 cups total across the day. Same with milk, at times whole milk, at others 1%.
Carrot salad or bowl of cooked mushrooms every day.
I have a snack before bed, sometimes ice cream, sometimes hot milk with maple syrup, sometimes salted oj, sometimes potato chips cooked in coconut oil. Sometimes dark chocolate.
Salt is total 2-3 tsp a day. I measure it out in the morning and keep it in a separate bowl to use across the day.

I'm gaining weight, so maybe 2500 cals is too much. I'm not working out because sleep is so poor.

 

[CaliforniaKat]

And yes, need to work on blood sugar too most likely.

 

[Cirion]

I'm gaining weight, so maybe 2500 cals is too much. I'm not working out because sleep is so poor.

I know your pain. I gained a lot of weight too. But decreasing calories when sleep is already poor is not wise, and will only make it worse. I wouldn't think about trying to cut weight purposefully until sleep is perfect. Remember that body weight is not a direct correlation to health. The goal will be to eventually lose weight, but not forcefully by restricting much needed calories. I'm also overweight but every time I cut calories it just gets worse. Running out of food spikes adrenaline, which makes good sleep impossible. That said I am attempting now to try to normalize weight while also healing, but it doesn't involve cutting calories, it involves cutting out PUFA's to almost zero (I had 1.3 gram of PUFA yesterday) while replacing those cals with carb calories, primarily. We shall see if it works.

Yeah focus on foods that make you warm for sure. I find it is most beneficial to have warmer foods and liquids in the morning (with caffeine and salt etc), and I can get away with colder stuff later in the day once my metabolism is turned on. Too much fat can be bad also, randle cycle all that fun stuff. But definitely, coconut oil for sure. CO is about the only fat I now consume, in fact now I consume hydrogenated (zero PUFA CO). I'm now doing something like 70% carb 15% protein 15% fat every day now. I currently can't go lower than 15% fat or I start to feel bad. So don't go super low fat, but definitely cut out PUFA where you can. @Waremu I believe said he does best limiting proteins near bedtime, especially the antimetabolic proteins from anything other than milk or gelatin.

At first glance doesn't seem like you eat that much fruit? That's going to be very helpful. I also recommend salting fruit. I am a big fan of grapes, also oranges. I don't personally like dried fruit, too dehydrating, and actually dried fruits tends to make me cold. Fruit also will get you the natural fibers you need to have regular bowel movements.

Also I find keeping the house warm is helpful. I used to sleep in 60's degree house until a user here told me that was dumb, now I sleep upwards of 75F. The warmer the environment the easier it is for body to maintain body temp, which means less energy expenditure / less likely to run out of glucose / better sleep.

 

[CaliforniaKat]

I know your pain. I gained a lot of weight too. But decreasing calories when sleep is already poor is not wise, and will only make it worse. I wouldn't think about trying to cut weight purposefully until sleep is perfect. Remember that body weight is not a direct correlation to health. The goal will be to eventually lose weight, but not forcefully by restricting much needed calories. I'm also overweight but every time I cut calories it just gets worse. Running out of food spikes adrenaline, which makes good sleep impossible. That said I am attempting now to try to normalize weight while also healing, but it doesn't involve cutting calories, it involves cutting out PUFA's to almost zero (I had 1.3 gram of PUFA yesterday) while replacing those cals with carb calories, primarily. We shall see if it works.

Yeah focus on foods that make you warm for sure. I find it is most beneficial to have warmer foods and liquids in the morning (with caffeine and salt etc), and I can get away with colder stuff later in the day once my metabolism is turned on. Too much fat can be bad also, randle cycle all that fun stuff. But definitely, coconut oil for sure. CO is about the only fat I now consume, in fact now I consume hydrogenated (zero PUFA CO). I'm now doing something like 70% carb 15% protein 15% fat every day now. I currently can't go lower than 15% fat or I start to feel bad. So don't go super low fat, but definitely cut out PUFA where you can. @Waremu I believe said he does best limiting proteins near bedtime, especially the antimetabolic proteins from anything other than milk or gelatin.

At first glance doesn't seem like you eat that much fruit? That's going to be very helpful. I also recommend salting fruit. I am a big fan of grapes, also oranges. I don't personally like dried fruit, too dehydrating, and actually dried fruits tends to make me cold. Fruit also will get you the natural fibers you need to have regular bowel movements.

Also I find keeping the house warm is helpful. I used to sleep in 60's degree house until a user here told me that was dumb, now I sleep upwards of 75F. The warmer the environment the easier it is for body to maintain body temp, which means less energy expenditure / less likely to run out of glucose / better sleep.

Yeah, my house is pretty cold. The thermostat is set for like 60 degrees at night. I sleep in a blanket burrito, lol. I don't know that I can do even 15% fat yet. Toying with 20-25% atm, seeing if higher fat and (not low carb by any means) lower sugar with the same amount of protein makes any difference. I don't want to restrict cals, just have no idea what cals would be appropriate. Coming from low carb it's hard to know what my body actually needs. I wasnt gaining in the fall, but fat was pretty high still, and just starting to incorporate fruits/milk/Peat principals. I also slept then, but was cold much of the day even on thyroid. So, it is a journey for sure. I'm already heavy so lots of the weight is just trying to to add even more that I eventually have to get off. 5 foot 8 and 215 isn't healthy, for sure. I was in the 190s over the summer.

Yeah, OJ is easy so that was the path I was taking with fruit. Hard to get potassium needs met. I may have to add in more fruits and not as much OJ. And then there is the whole starch vs. No starch argument. Feels like there are always too many moving parts to try to isolate and positively manipulate one.

 

[Cirion]

Yeah it was a struggle to get down to 15% fat. I was very high fat when I first started, probably like 40%. The problem is when the metabolism is broken and a "fat burner" and not a "carb burner". Now, the body is capable of "flexible metabolism" (fats and carbs) but usually someone who is hypo can not pull off flexibility correctly, and the randle cycle hurts more (In my own personal experience). It's a nasty catch 22 situation - need to lower fat to fix carb metabolism, but feel bad when lowering fats. So I basically gradually made the adjustment. I'm hardly cured, I have tons of problems still, but for the most part I can keep up my temps fine now with only 15% fats instead of 40% like I used to. Definitely keep fats up higher (as long as they're SFA's) if they get you the temps you need, as that's the desired state, with the eventual goal of bringing them down slowly as you can tolerate it (my opinion, though).

If it makes you feel better I am like 270+ lb now lol. (6 ft 0 inch tho). Thyroid is tricky. I honestly haven't seen much benefit from it. It's different for everyone. Some people swear by their thyroid.

 

[Re.Generate]

I realize this is an old thread - but did you ever try quitting coconut oil? - for many it can lead to nasty insomnia over time ?