Conjecture: Vitamin B6 And Zinc Reduce 5ar And DHT. This Treats Hair Loss, But May Not Be Safe

[ravster02]

I may consider doing this. The caffeine spray is easy to make since it's soluble in water.

 

[Strongbad]

I may consider doing this. The caffeine spray is easy to make since it's soluble in water.

Hey, ravster02. I finally took my bloodwork on this thread: http://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=6486&start=45#p78494, can you please take a look at it and let me know what you think? Haidut gave me some great pointers already, so I thought maybe you can chip in some 2 cents, too.

Thanks!

 

[sladerunner69]

I've made two posts on Peatarian.com about this topic, and it'd be easier to just read my original posts there.

http://peatarian.com/52211/hypothesis-b ... e-hormones

http://peatarian.com/52219/how-do-b6-zi ... -synthesis

Basically, zinc and B6 in combination should inhibit 5ar (and thus DHT). This treats hair loss.

However, 5ar also synthesizes neuroprotective hormones. A common symptom of finasteride (which reduces 5ar) is brain fog.

If zinc and B6 inhibit 5ar in a similar fashion, using these as a natural hair loss therapy may also be undesirable.

Dear OP: The "DHT causes male pattern baldness" storyline was a false hypothesis fabricated by pharmexutical companies to sell easy to produce feminizing medications to men, such as propecia and spirolactone. I was on these briefly when I was 18, to disastrous, life destroying results. 5 years and many shedded tears later I am still trying to get my life together. Don't believe that quakery, hair is intricately tied into metabolism. The reason women don't bald as much is because they have higher progesterone levels. Balding men have lower testosterone and lower metabolisms.

Following Ray Peat's guidelines and using laser therapy (I built my own laser helmet-you can find instructions at overmachogrande.com) has done WAYYY more for me than any mainstream treatment I tried when I was younger.

 

[TheArtofHealth]

So is Solban basically the topical talked about in that interview? Caffeine, niacine, and zinc? And has anyone had success with it thickening hair and stopping shedding?

 

[TubZy]

In high doses zinc acts as a 5ARI, stay under 45-50mg to avoid that effect otherwise it acts an aromatase inhibitor, which is good.

 

[TheArtofHealth]

Oof, so what does that mean for oysters? I'm doin a dozen raw a week right now.

 

[TubZy]

Oof, so what does that mean for oysters? I'm doin a dozen raw a week right now.

Oysters I think your fine especially if only a dozen a week. If you sweat you lose zinc to an extent and of course ejaculation. I only use 15 mg zinc picolinate a day, but after reading on here it seems a lot of ppl prefer the sulfate or gluconate version, not sure why as it seems picolinate has superior absorption.

 

[Bluestreek]

I've made two posts on Peatarian.com about this topic, and it'd be easier to just read my original posts there.

http://peatarian.com/52211/hypothesis-b ... e-hormones

http://peatarian.com/52219/how-do-b6-zi ... -synthesis

Basically, zinc and B6 in combination should inhibit 5ar (and thus DHT). This treats hair loss.

However, 5ar also synthesizes neuroprotective hormones. A common symptom of finasteride (which reduces 5ar) is brain fog.

If zinc and B6 inhibit 5ar in a similar fashion, using these as a natural hair loss therapy may also be undesirable.

Yes, you are absolutely right. I used multivitamins with 25 mg of Zinc/day and 100% NRV of B6 for 2 weeks and am suffering from PFS for the last siz months. Libido down to zero and erectyle dysfunction along with depression

 

[johnwester130]

It's no comparison to finasteride.

Even though they both do the same thing

 

[Ella]

In high doses zinc acts as a 5ARI, stay under 45-50mg to avoid that effect otherwise it acts an aromatase inhibitor, which is good.

@TubZy you say > 45 -50mg zinc acts as AI. Is this not we want. When I see high DHT which all the males here say is a good thing I also high estrogens. Would high DHT be just as bad as low. The guys that I see with high DHT are definately not in a good state. But it may be for many other reeasons and elevated DHT is a protective mechanism.

Well aware of deleterious effects of high zinc and B6 supplementation as I have dealt with it in many of my clients. Have you experience in normalising high levels of DHT with zinc supplementation or ar you using zinc to raise DHT.

I only use 15 mg zinc picolinate a day

Less zinc in the picolinate form, though I would also monitor other minerals to be sure zinc is not antatonising magnesium, copper and Vitamin A. Many are low in these to begin with.

Yes, you are absolutely right. I used multivitamins with 25 mg of Zinc/day and 100% NRV of B6 for 2 weeks and am suffering from PFS for the last siz months. Libido down to zero and erectyle dysfunction along with depression

@Bluestreek, my experience is, those individuals that have been placed on such protocols are always one step away from the emergency room. Once I take them off zinc + B6, we are able to achieve stability by addressing minerals deficiencies such as copper, vitamin A and removal of heavy metals. I don't use chelation therapy as these individuals are low in all minerals.

Have you explored further as to your mineral status. Zinc is considered benign but this has not been my experience. I have started to collect case studies. It may well be individual specific dependant on their overall mineral and heavy metal status. Peat is right that people improve once you take them off all the supplements which points to toxicity or imbalance of overall mineral/vitamin status.

Re. dht. Like any hormone too little or too much is going to cause problems. I think it is best to remove the stressor and then look at how best to optimise nutritional status. The problem is that many people are dealing with malabsorption problems so it is best to fix this first. For the rest of us that have no problem eating, we should be cautious in supplementing and if you do, make sure you know your status from the start, then monitor. My own work shows in healthy people; zinc is easily absorb from meals and the levels are noticeable from one meal to the next. As for B6; B-vitamins are designed to work together along with other nutrient cofactors and taking isolated vitamins (even when water soluble) and minerals is going to upset the natural order and balance.

 

[Bluestreek]

@TubZy you say > 45 -50mg zinc acts as AI. Is this not we want. When I see high DHT which all the males here say is a good thing I also high estrogens. Would high DHT be just as bad as low. The guys that I see with high DHT are definately not in a good state. But it may be for many other reeasons and elevated DHT is a protective mechanism.

Well aware of deleterious effects of high zinc and B6 supplementation as I have dealt with it in many of my clients. Have you experience in normalising high levels of DHT with zinc supplementation or ar you using zinc to raise DHT.



Less zinc in the picolinate form, though I would also monitor other minerals to be sure zinc is not antatonising magnesium, copper and Vitamin A. Many are low in these to begin with.



@Bluestreek, my experience is, those individuals thaNt have been placed on such protocols are always one step away from the emergency room. Once I take them off zinc + B6, we are able to achieve stability by addressing minerals deficiencies such as copper, vitamin A and removal of heavy metals. I don't use chelation therapy as these individuals are low in all minerals.

Have you explored further as to your mineral status. Zinc is considered benign but this has not been my experience. I have started to collect case studies. It may well be individual specific dependant on their overall mineral and heavy metal status. Peat is right that people improve once you take them off all the supplements which points to toxicity or imbalance of overall mineral/vitamin status.

Re. dht. Like any hormone too little or too much is going to cause problems. I think it is best to remove the stressor and then look at how best to optimise nutritional status. The problem is that many people are dealing with malabsorption problems so it is best to fix this first. For the rest of us that have no problem eating, we should be cautious in supplementing and if you do, make sure you know your status from the start, then monitor. My own work shows in healthy people; zinc is easily absorb from meals and the levels are noticeable from one meal to the next. As for B6; B-vitamins are designed to work together along with other nutrient cofactors and taking isolated vitamins (even when water soluble) and minerals is going to upset the natural order and balance.

@Ella: Thanks for your quick response.

I have seen my GP who thinks that this is all phsycological. I know it is not. I just took multivitamins tablets, twice daily (instead on once), 12 hours apart, after meals. and in 15 days, I completely crashed. I had a persistent hairfall since my teens (I am 38 yrs now), and for the first time in life, the hair fall stopped but along with it came depression and ED/loss of libido/penile shrinkage. The symptoms are similar to PFS (post finasteride syndrome).
I had stopped the supplements (those multivitmains) right after the 15 days of use.
Now after 6 months, I have developed low Ferritin (15 on a range of 20-150) and Iron (11 on a range of 14--34) along with low Neutrophil (1.75 on a range of 2.0--7.0). Lemocyte and Hemoglobin so far are OK. Serum Copper and ceruplasmin or also OK but near the bottom of the normal range (12.18 [11---18] and 0.24[0.20---6.0] respectively). The Ferritin was above 70 before I used these multivitamins. And I never had low Iron through out my life.
My GP has referred me to a Gastroenterologist (but the appointment is in 3 months) and for now he has proposed to use 210mg x 2 of Ferrous Fumerate tablets/day.
I have read some research papers, and this appears to be high Zinc induced copper deficiency which leads to low iron and eventually anemia ( I am not anemic yet). My Zinc status was 140 on a range of (50-150) after using these supplements which was pretty high but not beyond the maximum range.
I have also read that oral copper does not help in such cases and Zinc inhibits copper absorption from intestines. Therefore, copper is injected to resolve this. But this is my understanding, what is your take on this?
I would appreciate any feedback.

Any suggestions, how to remove excess Zinc?

By the way Ella, are you a doctor by profession?

Many thanks
Best Regards

 

[Jsaute21]

Ever seen Jason Statham, Bruce Willis, Michael Jordan, etc? Plenty of dominant and handsome men who are completely bald.

I have a thick head of hair that has been that way even when I was in shitty metabolic health. Due to hair loss being a non factor for me, I haven't really researched the data on it but I know many bald guys (young and old) that lead great lives filled with healthy pay checks, beautiful wives/girlfriends etc. I am a little too obsessed with my appearance and health so I am not throwing stones from a glass house but it's important to realize that flaws are only unattractive when you are overly aware of them.

Keep improving metabolism, DHT, health etc and hopefully self worth will somewhat rise with it.

 

[Deleted member 5487]

Ever seen Jason Statham, Bruce Willis, Michael Jordan, etc? Plenty of dominant and handsome men who are completely bald.

I have a thick head of hair that has been that way even when I was in shitty metabolic health. Due to hair loss being a non factor for me, I haven't really researched the data on it but I know many bald guys (young and old) that lead great lives filled with healthy pay checks, beautiful wives/girlfriends etc. I am a little too obsessed with my appearance and health so I am not throwing stones from a glass house but it's important to realize that flaws are only unattractive when you are overly aware of them.

Keep improving metabolism, DHT, health etc and hopefully self worth will somewhat rise with it.

Those individuals are not only "haloed" by insane status. But also Have Massive masculine skulls and above average faces, Jason Jaw is ridiculousness.

The average balding guy has Low T, High Estrogen, Cortisol anxiety...etc. Which is where women get the "consenses" that they hate balding/receding men and hate their genetics.

.

just lol

 

[2thecloudsabove]

DHT is a doble edge sword. It supercharges you with strenght, confidence, libido... but in return ages you the most. You take the choice.

 

[MyUsernameHere]

I have a thick head of hair

>>Proceeds to give acceptance advice to people who are balding...

If you don't have a condition, you can't possibly begin to understand the impact it has on someone else's life. You weighing your opinion on that is essentially meaningless to us. No offense meant. It's just the way it is. Just like other people's health issues don't affect me and I could surely find a way to rationalize them away into obscurity, since I'm not affected.

The Jason Statham and Vin Diesel are also some of my favorite copes. The average person is not one of them, and loses points off of his appearance due to hair loss regardless of what he thinks about it himself.

 

[Astral kid]

What's the dosage of b6 in mg's?

 

[bboone]

I've made two posts on Peatarian.com about this topic, and it'd be easier to just read my original posts there.

http://peatarian.com/52211/hypothesis-b ... e-hormones

http://peatarian.com/52219/how-do-b6-zi ... -synthesis

Basically, zinc and B6 in combination should inhibit 5ar (and thus DHT). This treats hair loss.

However, 5ar also synthesizes neuroprotective hormones. A common symptom of finasteride (which reduces 5ar) is brain fog.

If zinc and B6 inhibit 5ar in a similar fashion, using these as a natural hair loss therapy may also be undesirable.

wow, the only time in my life i have had "brain fog" was after a while of taking this multivitamin that contained both zinc and B6, and it dissipated after i stopped taking it. i thought it had something to do with my large whole milk consumption, which i ceased at around the same time i stopped taking the multi. any chance about a year of taking this multi every day could have done permanent dmg? 1.4 mg B6 and 10 mg zinc.

 

[Whichway?]

@TubZy you say > 45 -50mg zinc acts as AI. Is this not we want. When I see high DHT which all the males here say is a good thing I also high estrogens. Would high DHT be just as bad as low. The guys that I see with high DHT are definately not in a good state. But it may be for many other reeasons and elevated DHT is a protective mechanism.

Well aware of deleterious effects of high zinc and B6 supplementation as I have dealt with it in many of my clients. Have you experience in normalising high levels of DHT with zinc supplementation or ar you using zinc to raise DHT.



Less zinc in the picolinate form, though I would also monitor other minerals to be sure zinc is not antatonising magnesium, copper and Vitamin A. Many are low in these to begin with.



@Bluestreek, my experience is, those individuals that have been placed on such protocols are always one step away from the emergency room. Once I take them off zinc + B6, we are able to achieve stability by addressing minerals deficiencies such as copper, vitamin A and removal of heavy metals. I don't use chelation therapy as these individuals are low in all minerals.

Have you explored further as to your mineral status. Zinc is considered benign but this has not been my experience. I have started to collect case studies. It may well be individual specific dependant on their overall mineral and heavy metal status. Peat is right that people improve once you take them off all the supplements which points to toxicity or imbalance of overall mineral/vitamin status.

Re. dht. Like any hormone too little or too much is going to cause problems. I think it is best to remove the stressor and then look at how best to optimise nutritional status. The problem is that many people are dealing with malabsorption problems so it is best to fix this first. For the rest of us that have no problem eating, we should be cautious in supplementing and if you do, make sure you know your status from the start, then monitor. My own work shows in healthy people; zinc is easily absorb from meals and the levels are noticeable from one meal to the next. As for B6; B-vitamins are designed to work together along with other nutrient cofactors and taking isolated vitamins (even when water soluble) and minerals is going to upset the natural order and balance.

@Ella I would be interested to hear your approach to dealing with heavy metal toxicity. I am on the Andy Cutler frequent dose chelation protocol, and one of the four key nutritional supplements of that regime is zinc, as mercury binds to many of the same sites in enzymes as zinc does.

I’ve read all sorts of recommendations, from the William Walsh people who treat certain types of depression and pyroluria with large doses of zinc and B6, to autism forums, and others that stress the importance of zinc, with the mimimsing of copper. Hard to know who to believe anymore?

 

[dand]

DHT is a doble edge sword. It supercharges you with strenght, confidence, libido... but in return ages you the most. You take the choice.

Lol. No, it doesn't. I would love to see some evidence that it ages you other than your conjecture.

 

[AnonE]

Strongly disagree with the premise of the OP.

First of all, the full picture of DHT = hairloss is really much more complicated. DHT may be present in miniaturized hair follicles, but this is likely a correlation due to DHT accumulating to treat inflammation. It's some form(s) of inflammation leading to calcification, fibrosis causing loss of nutrients that is more likely to be miniaturizing the hair follicles. DHT is likely there as an after-effect, and remains in the scalp because the inflammation never clears (DHT likely anti-inflammatory: Rogaine, Propecia, and Avodart Will Never Reverse Hair Loss, Here's Why). Read more from this guy who summarizes the nuances in current theories nicely: The Leading Theories Of Pattern Hair Loss (And Where They Go Wrong)

Second of all, let me provide my own 'counter example' for whatever it's worth. As an amateur athlete and someone who has a busy and stressful work life, I started noticing higher estrogen/prolactin symptoms years ago. So researching over time led me to both Zinc and B6. I regularly take amounts that would probably make this forum wince - 100mg zinc on some days, and 250mg B6 (HCL form though). Lower doses on maybe half the days, but around that dose on high activity days, especially high sexual activity days. I also take other major minerals and vitamins regularly to balance these out.

If DHT has to do with energy, libido, masculinity, etc, I can assure you my dosages are not diminishing these in any such way. Quite the opposite

In this link @haidut quotes a study of the active form of B6 being an effective anti stress therapy: Vitamin B6 As Effective, General Anti-stress Therapy "vitamin B6 is anti-stress (both adrenalin and cortisol) and pro-GABA."

He mentions 25mg as a dose. I've also read him state that conversion for the HCL form of B6 might be only 1:10, so interestingly enough my 250mg B6 HCL dose matches up with this dosage, didn't even realize lol.

Now to be fair I think my personal needs of nutrients are very different from most people, I really do 'burn the candle at both ends'. But overall these two in particular I know have been a net positive, and I don't think people should be afraid of experimenting with them, especially if they believe they're higher in the stress hormone departments.