Depression

[jyb]

I have used the serotonin blocking drugs (ondansetron) and within a week I was my former self with all the cockiness and self confidence and love for life.

Was one week enough enough to experience long lasting (or permanent) healing?

I didn't take it more than a few days, because it constipates (maybe because the bowels need some serotonin to move) and bowels don't feel good, also felt nauseous at the end (but maybe the nausea stops if keep taking the drug, since that's what its intended for). Some other forum members also reported these side effects.

 

[Rayser]

Beebop, I can't really say that for every person who ever used SSRI. The effect of these drugs is different and linked to the hormonal and neurological situation at the time.
I would recommend having prolactin measured because that's a good way to conclude how serotonin levels look. If prolactin is high, serotonin is most probably high, too.
I have tried cyproheptadine, too and haven't noticed any effects apart from hardening stool. (Which is usually a sign of dropping serotonin levels so you should have some cascara.) But I never used them when I had psychological problems. I used ondansetron and found it to be highly effective.

One thing I can say is that over the last four and a half years I have observed dozens of people (including me) asking Ray Peat for advise. Whenever we did as he suggested - it worked and we healed.
If he recommends cyproheptadine my advice would be to try cyproheptadine.
It doesn't have any side effects I know of. (Apart from being hard to get.) Use them with sugar to avoid low blood sugar and relieve the liver and avoid hypoglycemic effects like headaches and nausea.
Watch for changes. If it helps, it helps within a few days or a week. (If you use the right dosage.) If it doesn't it will at least do no harm.

 

[Rayser]

I have used the serotonin blocking drugs (ondansetron) and within a week I was my former self with all the cockiness and self confidence and love for life.

Was one week enough enough to experience long lasting (or permanent) healing?

I didn't take it more than a few days, because it constipates (maybe because the bowels need some serotonin to move) and bowels don't feel good, also felt nauseous at the end (but maybe the nausea stops if keep taking the drug, since that's what its intended for). Some other forum members also reported these side effects.

No, one week was of course not enough for permanent changes. I used it for some months.
Ray Peat once mentioned that a person who was born (or even before that exposed to) with high levels of serotonin might suffer from the consequences for a lifetime. Unless they do something to disrupt this cycle. (For instance using serotonin blockers for a while, changing once diet a.s.o.)

The constipation can be relieved by using cascara. (See Ray Peat's article and the section on supplement on the forum.)
Feeling nauseous after using ondansetron (or other drugs) is often due to low levels of glucose. The drugs have to be processed by your liver. The liver needs certain blood sugar levels to work. If you use drugs without the necessary sugar levels, you will get a headache or feel nauseated.

 

[Beebop]

Wise words about taking his advice. How does one get prolactin measured - what would you need to say to a doctor to make them think it is a good idea?

 

[Rayser]

It depends ... I would say: I want my prolactin measured.

But I know there are people (and doctors) who don't want any confrontation.
So if you are a woman pre-menopause you could say you are trying to get pregnant and know that high levels of prolactin can be a reason it doesn't happen.

You could claim your muscles always hurt a lot, even when you do only very light exercise. A friend told you that for him the problem was high prolactin. (In which case bromocriptin would be prescribed.)

You could ask for an entire hormonal check.

You could say you wanted to start exercising for a marathon and your personal trainer wants to see your prolactin level first to know how far he can go with you. (Exercise will raise the prolactin level.)

Or (if you're older) say that your son/daughter was diagnosed with prolactinoma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prolactinoma) and his/her doctor recommends his/her family to get checked. Careful: If they want to do an X-ray on you, run!

Or you just say: Do it, I pay for it myself.

 

[jyb]

No, one week was of course not enough for permanent changes. I used it for some months.
Ray Peat once mentioned that a person who was born (or even before that exposed to) with high levels of serotonin might suffer from the consequences for a lifetime. Unless they do something to disrupt this cycle. (For instance using serotonin blockers for a while, changing once diet a.s.o.)

The constipation can be relieved by using cascara. (See Ray Peat's article and the section on supplement on the forum.)
Feeling nauseous after using ondansetron (or other drugs) is often due to low levels of glucose. The drugs have to be processed by your liver. The liver needs certain blood sugar levels to work. If you use drugs without the necessary sugar levels, you will get a headache or feel nauseated.

Thanks, that is useful information.

Re cascara to mitigate ondansetron's side effects: what was your dosage? Are there no risk of the bowels getting addicted to it like commercial laxatives?

What brand of ondansetron did you use? I ask because if I'm going to test it for more than a few days, I'd like to take the one with the least bad added ingredients.

 

[Beebop]

Nice ideas - super! I think they are all good ideas for different people. Will let you know how we get on :)

 

[jyb]

@Rayer: I remember the nausea arising long after taking the pill, towards the end of its effects (which then encouraged me to take a pill for another day, to kill the nausea). So I'm not sure if it can be attributed to liver being low on glucose.

 

[Rayser]

jyb -- I don't know about the right dosage for cascara.
I use Farmalabors, powdered. I don't need more than a pinch.
No, there is no addiction.
But some people report they need more after using it regularly for a while. Since it has many effects similarly beneficial as vitamin K2 I don't think that's bad. It's not expensive either.
But you will not use anti-serotonine drugs forever so you will not need cascara forever and your bowel movement will adjust without it.
I have used it every day for a year and had no problems when I stopped using it.
My only advise would be to use the powdered cascara with lots of sugar or in a gelatine capsule. It tastes awful.
As for the brands of ondansetron - I used the ones I could get. Zofran, ondanson (or something like that) and lots of generics. I never noticed any difference.

 

[Rayser]

@Rayer: I remember the nausea arising long after taking the pill, towards the end of its effects (which then encouraged me to take a pill for another day, to kill the nausea). So I'm not sure if it can be attributed to liver being low on glucose.

I have head that, too. It means the dosage stopped working at that time and you notice the raising of serotonin. That's why it would be a good idea to use it at least twice a day. You don't have to double the dosage. But I used the feeling of nausea to determine how much and when I needed ondansetron.

 

[Rayser]

Nice ideas - super! I think they are all good ideas for different people. Will let you know how we get on :)

Please do.

 

[jyb]

jyb -- I don't know about the right dosage for cascara.
I use Farmalabors, powdered. I don't need more than a pinch.
No, there is no addiction.
But some people report they need more after using it regularly for a while. Since it has many effects similarly beneficial as vitamin K2 I don't think that's bad. It's not expensive either.
But you will not use anti-serotonine drugs forever so you will not need cascara forever and your bowel movement will adjust without it.
I have used it every day for a year and had no problems when I stopped using it.
My only advise would be to use the powdered cascara with lots of sugar or in a gelatine capsule. It tastes awful.
As for the brands of ondansetron - I used the ones I could get. Zofran, ondanson (or something like that) and lots of generics. I never noticed any difference.

Do you remember your ondansetron dosage? I think 2mg (typically half a pill) already yields an effect, so that's 1mg morning and 1mg afternoon.

 

[Rayser]

I used 2mg twice a day. Doubled it after a week. When I wanted to stop I slowly decreased the dosage. When I felt nauseated I used a little more. You'll feel your way toward the right dosage.

 

[chris]

Ray Peat once mentioned that a person who was born (or even before that exposed to) with high levels of serotonin might suffer from the consequences for a lifetime. Unless they do something to disrupt this cycle. (For instance using serotonin blockers for a while, changing once diet a.s.o.)

Wow. Thanks for this Rayser, something may have just dropped into place. Experimenting with Ondansetron has just become a higher priority.

Quick question, what does "a.s.o." stand for?

 

[Rayser]

Ray Peat once mentioned that a person who was born (or even before that exposed to) with high levels of serotonin might suffer from the consequences for a lifetime. Unless they do something to disrupt this cycle. (For instance using serotonin blockers for a while, changing once diet a.s.o.)

Wow. Thanks for this Rayser, something may have just dropped into place. Experimenting with Ondansetron has just become a higher priority.

Quick question, what does "a.s.o." stand for?

It stands for: My f***ing I-Pad changes everything I write into words or things it knows. It doesn't know much and it's so annoying to go back and delete something on the touchscreen.

It means (and I wrote that): and so on.

I meant CO2, red light, high altitude (less radioactive radiation), intellectual stimulation, positive attitude, interaction with friends, light concentric exercise and so on.

 

[Swandattur]

Amen on the IPad annoyance! Mine really has mind of it's own today, and it is intent on driving me nuts! I wonder if someone is putting viruses on IPads now.

 

[Rayser]

I don't want to sound ungrateful but there are days when I think the iPad is the virus.
Don't get me started on the iphone.
Well, so much for my mental problems at the moments.
Yours, Raster (that's my i-name obviously)

 

[Rolan]

Oh, and sunshine. And if you cannot get enough sunshine then copious amounts of red light.

Charlie, from what I've been reading when lurking this forum, I thought you lived in England? Or am I way off there?

Sunlight is a major problem here in Blighty. I'm frankly a little anxious about the woeful lack of it that I've been exposed to in the last 15 years(I'm 27). I believe it to be a core issue in regards to mental health. As someone who has been 'depressed' and suicidal for much of his life, I understand this debilitating experience. My suicidal tendencies seemed to disperse when I started taking VitD3 all those years ago, and I rarely have those tendencies now - though If I do I would say it's an encultured reflex in my mind when things aren't going well or I fall to negative self-image BS, rather than any dietary/hormonal aspect. And that is the point really, in that you have to look at the whole picture and not base everything on what you're eating/consuming. Look at what you're mentally consuming too. I always believed that diet will not eradicate stress, but rather help us cope better with the junk we are bombarded with on a daily basis.

All I can say is that my depression has alleviated, and I honestly think it's more down to the way I think about myself and the world now as opposed to anything I'm putting into my body. I'm not so beholden to my past, relationships and emotions anymore. Obviously people can help themselves by what they consume physically, but it's not the complete picture.

As an aside, I'm way more 'happier', for want of a better word, when I'm in a creative phase.


EDIT: Re the sunlight thing. My Mum grew up in Africa and therefore spent her whole youth in the blazing African sun - perhaps this may have been beneficial to me in some way with the whole VitD3 thing. Just a thought.

 

[charlie]

No, I am in the US.

Since you have problem getting sufficient sunlight you might look into supplemental lighting.

 

[Rolan]

Ah ok, must be confusing you for someone else. I'm going to probably look at tanning booth's or whatever they're called 3 times a weeks at 10 minutes a pop. Not sure If that's overdoing it, but could be an acceptable mediator for now. The sun in England, as you can probably guess, is pretty dire. There's less than 10 days a year where the sun is actually blazing and not covered by clouds

Otherwise I'll get a heat lamp from Amazon or something - is there anything I need to look out for with these?