Amazoniac
Member
The experiment below confirms what was suspected for a long time.
Skip to the link if you're not interested in poetry. It's nothing to do with clearing your throat or scraping your shoes on the floor as a substitute for 'excuse me' to the person blocking your way.
It was used 25 g of MgCl2, which is brutal, but it was also used 40 g of Na2SO4 and it didn't have such effect in spite of also inducing diarrhea (excluding the possibility that this was the cause). 25 g of hydrated MgCl2 should provide 3000 mg of magnesium. For perspective, people on Coimbra's protocol used to take 1200 mg of it; (if I'm not wrong) now they're using others forms of magnesium that are more humane.
It's common to take it multiple times a day through various routes. The effect might not be as evident as here, but doing it chronically can tax the body over time. It's quite unnecessary given that there are various other (better) forms available. The exception is if for some reason you're after the chloride excess.
- The production of acidosis by ingestion of magnesium chloride and stronium chloride
To recapitulate what has been discussed throughout the foro:
Skip to the link if you're not interested in poetry. It's nothing to do with clearing your throat or scraping your shoes on the floor as a substitute for 'excuse me' to the person blocking your way.
It was used 25 g of MgCl2, which is brutal, but it was also used 40 g of Na2SO4 and it didn't have such effect in spite of also inducing diarrhea (excluding the possibility that this was the cause). 25 g of hydrated MgCl2 should provide 3000 mg of magnesium. For perspective, people on Coimbra's protocol used to take 1200 mg of it; (if I'm not wrong) now they're using others forms of magnesium that are more humane.
It's common to take it multiple times a day through various routes. The effect might not be as evident as here, but doing it chronically can tax the body over time. It's quite unnecessary given that there are various other (better) forms available. The exception is if for some reason you're after the chloride excess.
- The production of acidosis by ingestion of magnesium chloride and stronium chloride
"On two occasions J. B. S. H. [the author gave himself diarrhea to prove this to you] drank a litre of water in which 25 g. MgCl2 were dissolved. The alveolar C02 pressure, estimated by the method of Haldane and Priestley [1905], fell from 39-3 to 32-8 mm. and from 37-2 to 31-9 mm. This fall was completed within 5 hours of taking the salt, but the pressure had not returned to normal on the subsequent mornings. The increased breathing might conceivably have been due to a stimulation of the respiratory centre by Mg; however, an analysis of the urine secreted during the 24 hours after taking the salt left no doubt of the presence of a true acidosis. While on four normal days the acid titrated to phenolphthalein varied between 57 and 61 millimols, 76 were excreted after taking MgCl2. The ammonia, estimated by Malfatti's [1908] method, which had varied between 69 and 75 millimols, rose to 107."
"There was a possibility that any violent diarrhoea might cause an acidosis through loss of bicarbonate. So, as a control, 40 g. Na2SO4. 1OH20 were drunk in 800 cc. water. This produced copious diarrhoea of a pH about 7 5, but no change in the alveolar C02 pressure."
"Summary:
Ingestion of MgCl2 or SrCl2 causes acidosis in man."
"There was a possibility that any violent diarrhoea might cause an acidosis through loss of bicarbonate. So, as a control, 40 g. Na2SO4. 1OH20 were drunk in 800 cc. water. This produced copious diarrhoea of a pH about 7 5, but no change in the alveolar C02 pressure."
"Summary:
Ingestion of MgCl2 or SrCl2 causes acidosis in man."
To recapitulate what has been discussed throughout the foro:
- Magnesium chloride is about 25% of magnesium and 75% of chloride when you ignore hydration: to get enough magnesium, you'll have to get an unusual amount of chloride
- Absorption of chloride in nearly complete, magnesium is 35% on average
- It has two chlorine atoms for each magnesium instead of one as in sodium chloride
- Chloride (along with sodium) is found in abundance outside the cell, magnesium inside: this tends to upset electrolyte balance in the body
- We are not used to get massive amounts of chloride without sodium, one balances the other outside the cell
- Sodium loss is common when weak (as mentioned by Raj many times), shoving down chloride can complicate this aspect
- Most people's diet are acidic (consider regular use of supplements such as ascorbic and salicylic acid, etc) and many of us are in the latency of acidosis (hence this)
- Degeneration tends towards acidosis (lactic acid, ketones, etc)
- Inhalation of chlorine gases in shower or pools is common
- Excess sodium bicarbonate causes alkalosis, sodium chloride acidosis; sodium is common to both so it can only be chloride
- Kidneys are already overburdened, no need for more burden when there are better alternatives
- You can't breathe out chloride like you can carbon dioxide, it's more taxing to regulate imbalances
- Its taste isn't deceiving; topical application bypasses this making you less aware of how much won't be disturbing
- Absorption of chloride in nearly complete, magnesium is 35% on average
- It has two chlorine atoms for each magnesium instead of one as in sodium chloride
- Chloride (along with sodium) is found in abundance outside the cell, magnesium inside: this tends to upset electrolyte balance in the body
- We are not used to get massive amounts of chloride without sodium, one balances the other outside the cell
- Sodium loss is common when weak (as mentioned by Raj many times), shoving down chloride can complicate this aspect
- Most people's diet are acidic (consider regular use of supplements such as ascorbic and salicylic acid, etc) and many of us are in the latency of acidosis (hence this)
- Degeneration tends towards acidosis (lactic acid, ketones, etc)
- Inhalation of chlorine gases in shower or pools is common
- Excess sodium bicarbonate causes alkalosis, sodium chloride acidosis; sodium is common to both so it can only be chloride
- Kidneys are already overburdened, no need for more burden when there are better alternatives
- You can't breathe out chloride like you can carbon dioxide, it's more taxing to regulate imbalances
- Its taste isn't deceiving; topical application bypasses this making you less aware of how much won't be disturbing
- Acidosis and Alkalosis (Donald D. Van Slyke)
- Bench-to-bedside review: Chloride in critical illness
- Magnesium Chloride And Magnesium Sulfate: A Comparison
- "The Primary Sources Of Acidity In The Diet Are Sulfur-containing AAs, Salt, And Phosphoric Acid"
"Experimentally, alkali deficit from acid retention can be produced by severe exercise or anoxia (lactic acid retention), by administration of mineral acids, as in Walter's experiments, or by oral administration of ammonium, calcium, magnesium, or strontium chloride. The ability of these "acidifying salts" to lower the alkali reserve was discovered by J. B. S. Haldane (12 [], 13). The ammonia salts are absorbed, and the ammonia is changed to urea, setting free the HCl of the NH4Cl. Ammonium sulfate and nitrate act similarly. When the Ca, Mg, or Sr chloride is given, the cation is excreted from the intestine and the HCl retained. Because of the diuretic effect of acid retention, these salts may be used as diuretics in conditions where some loss of alkali reserve can be tolerated."
- Bench-to-bedside review: Chloride in critical illness
"Intravenous administration of chloride-rich fluids is probably the most common and modifiable cause of hyperchloraemia in the ICU. The chloride content of these fluids, from 0.9% NaCl (saline) to the various colloids suspended in saline (Tables 1 and 2), is supra-physiologic [51], with significant hyperchloraemia following the administration of such fluids in volunteers [13,52], intraoperatively [9,10,12,14,15,30] or as cardiopulmonary bypass prime fluid [11].
While saline was a life-saving measure when first introduced during the cholera pandemic of Europe in the 1830s [53], it is to be noted that the saline used then was of a different composition. A reconstitution of the Thomas Latta solution revealed a sodium concentration of 134 mmol/l, chloride 118 mmol/l and bicarbonate 16 mmol/l. The historical or scientific basis of the present-day 0.9% composition of saline remains a mystery, even when traced to those cholera pandemic days that marked the beginning of the intravenous fluid technique and its various solutions [54]. On the other hand, there appears to be common lack of basic knowledge for optimal fluid and electrolyte prescription. Intravenous fluid and electrolyte prescriptions in postoperative surgical patients vary widely, with 0.9% saline being most common, and show poor correlation between serum electrolyte values and the amounts of electrolytes prescribed [55]. Moreover, less than one-half of prescribers in 25 different surgical units were aware of the sodium content of 0.9% saline [56]. Chloride-rich fluids result in acidosis and evidence from animal studies, particularly in sepsis, point to a possible association with negative outcomes."
"In an animal study of the effects of hyperchloraemic acidosis from saline, the degree of systemic hypotension correlated significantly with the increase in plasma chloride levels [59], a stronger correlation than with pH. A significant increase was also seen in plasma nitrite levels in the saline group; in cell cultures, however, hyperchloraemic acidosis was found to be proinflammatory, inducing nitric oxide release, increased IL-6:IL-10 ratios and increased NF-κB DNA binding [60]. In a second animal study, after controlling for hypotension, there was a significant increase in cytokines with hyperchloraemic acidosis - greater increases were seen with more severe acidosis [61].
Therefore it would seem prudent to avoid chloride-rich fluids in sepsis despite controversy on whether acidosis results in physiological injury or is just a side effect of illness [62]. At present, the best evidence for acidosis-induced organ injury is mainly from animal studies [63,64] - thus making any specific recommendation difficult."
"In patients with renal dysfunction, many believe the risk of hyperkalaemia is greater with potassium-containing fluids like lactated solutions, thus leading to significantly higher use of 0.9% saline [72]. In contradiction to this paradigm, a randomized double-blind trial comparing lactated Ringer's solution and 0.9% saline during renal transplantation revealed a higher incidence of hyperkalaemia in the 0.9% saline group instead of in the lactated Ringer's solution group. The incidence of metabolic acidosis was also higher in the 0.9% saline group [73]. The authors suggested that hyperkalaemia was secondary to extracellular potassium shift due to hyperchloraemic (low-SID) acidosis."
While saline was a life-saving measure when first introduced during the cholera pandemic of Europe in the 1830s [53], it is to be noted that the saline used then was of a different composition. A reconstitution of the Thomas Latta solution revealed a sodium concentration of 134 mmol/l, chloride 118 mmol/l and bicarbonate 16 mmol/l. The historical or scientific basis of the present-day 0.9% composition of saline remains a mystery, even when traced to those cholera pandemic days that marked the beginning of the intravenous fluid technique and its various solutions [54]. On the other hand, there appears to be common lack of basic knowledge for optimal fluid and electrolyte prescription. Intravenous fluid and electrolyte prescriptions in postoperative surgical patients vary widely, with 0.9% saline being most common, and show poor correlation between serum electrolyte values and the amounts of electrolytes prescribed [55]. Moreover, less than one-half of prescribers in 25 different surgical units were aware of the sodium content of 0.9% saline [56]. Chloride-rich fluids result in acidosis and evidence from animal studies, particularly in sepsis, point to a possible association with negative outcomes."
"In an animal study of the effects of hyperchloraemic acidosis from saline, the degree of systemic hypotension correlated significantly with the increase in plasma chloride levels [59], a stronger correlation than with pH. A significant increase was also seen in plasma nitrite levels in the saline group; in cell cultures, however, hyperchloraemic acidosis was found to be proinflammatory, inducing nitric oxide release, increased IL-6:IL-10 ratios and increased NF-κB DNA binding [60]. In a second animal study, after controlling for hypotension, there was a significant increase in cytokines with hyperchloraemic acidosis - greater increases were seen with more severe acidosis [61].
Therefore it would seem prudent to avoid chloride-rich fluids in sepsis despite controversy on whether acidosis results in physiological injury or is just a side effect of illness [62]. At present, the best evidence for acidosis-induced organ injury is mainly from animal studies [63,64] - thus making any specific recommendation difficult."
"In patients with renal dysfunction, many believe the risk of hyperkalaemia is greater with potassium-containing fluids like lactated solutions, thus leading to significantly higher use of 0.9% saline [72]. In contradiction to this paradigm, a randomized double-blind trial comparing lactated Ringer's solution and 0.9% saline during renal transplantation revealed a higher incidence of hyperkalaemia in the 0.9% saline group instead of in the lactated Ringer's solution group. The incidence of metabolic acidosis was also higher in the 0.9% saline group [73]. The authors suggested that hyperkalaemia was secondary to extracellular potassium shift due to hyperchloraemic (low-SID) acidosis."
- Magnesium Chloride And Magnesium Sulfate: A Comparison
- "The Primary Sources Of Acidity In The Diet Are Sulfur-containing AAs, Salt, And Phosphoric Acid"
Last edited: