From Chris Masterjohn: Testing Nutritional Status - Vit A

[RealNeat]

Of course you can't isolate yourself from every poison! And no one is saying to do zero vitamin A. That's just not necessary. Oatmeal for instance has lutein. And that's eaten on the low vitamin A diet. Bananas have some too. Red meat has some depending on what the cow ate and was supplemented with. Veggies of course has some. And we don't know a lot about bean carotenoids, so far I found out kidney beans do in fact have them and so do lentils. Black beans must have a different pigment because they are lower. So no, it's impossible to do a zero vit A diet. I think the only time it's ever been pulled off is a boy who ate only chicken nuggets and white bread or something like that.

Yes fatty liver is a problem, and that's what we are warning people about! The Peat diet doesn't cure fatty liver! And Peat himself said in an article fatty liver may be protective!! WHAT! And I also found out recently he never did any blood tests!! He didn't even know if he had high liver enzymes or high cholesterol, he went by his temperature and pulse for all of his health needs.

So since I'm no expert I will use myself as an example. I did not restrict anything, I ate what I wanted to eat which was OJ or grape juice, bananas and other ripe fruit seasonally available, ham, cheese, chocolate, tacos, chicken fajitas, pizza at times and other meat and starch dishes, and then of course haagen dazs, my favorite dessert. That diet is pretty Peaty. And I wasn't very overweight about 122 lbs. So are you telling me I can stay on that diet because restriction is bad? And continue having worse blood labs? (temp and pulse was fine per Peat)

How does anyone change fatty liver other than restriction? Peat might say just use more thyroid and caffeine. Nope can't do it, temp and pulse was already up there. So how do you do it?

To the contrary, your diet seems like the perfect diet to get fatty liver.

Ray never encouraged high fat, which is the macro most responsibile for fatty liver, it also happens to be the macro that contains the most vA.

Ray said that a fatty liver from saturated fat does not lead to liver failure, which is accurate (but PUFA does), that still doesn't mean it's desirable. I think Ray was very in tune with his body, most people with liver or gallbladder issues can feel it's presence, no tests necessary, plus liver enzyme tests don't indicate fatty liver.

Ask Garrett how many of his clients, that were actually helped by the protocol, had fatty liver off the bat. I'm guessing almost 100%

I'm not necessarily advocating that you stay on a so called Peaty diet, rather I don't think restricting to the extent that avoiding sources of vA would require is necessary. Just as I don't advocate for people to stay away from every thing that naturally contains PUFA.

Also did you ever measure your visceral fat? One can most definitely have a fatty liver without being overweight just as they can have "diabetes."

 

[charlie]

Also what does what you responded have anything to do with what I said in that quoted line?

A quoting mishap. I meant to quote your entire post.

 

[charlie]

, I've done much more than the bare minimum, just because I'm not totally on board doesn't mean I'm misinformed, there is a lot of unknowns here Charlie.

Have you tried the diet and lifestyle yourself? Because if none of you have tried but only try to discredit via academic papers then that is not being very "Peaty" of you and shows a low level of knowledge from experience.

"As the true method of knowledge is experiment, the true faculty of knowing must be the faculty which experiences."

 

[Validus]

I think that as far as diet/nutrition goes, it's important to point out that it's highly probable that ANY diet, where you're in a consistent caloric surplus, where you're gaining body fat, even if slowly is going to also lead to an increase in fat in your liver.

 

[InChristAlone]

To the contrary, your diet seems like the perfect diet to get fatty liver.

Ray never encouraged high fat, which is the macro most responsibile for fatty liver, it also happens to be the macro that contains the most vA.

Ray said that a fatty liver from saturated fat does not lead to liver failure, which is accurate (but PUFA does), that still doesn't mean it's desirable. I think Ray was very in tune with his body, most people with liver or gallbladder issues can feel it's presence, no tests necessary, plus liver enzyme tests don't indicate fatty liver.

Ask Garrett how many of his clients, that were actually helped by the protocol, had fatty liver off the bat. I'm guessing almost 100%

I'm not necessarily advocating that you stay on a so called Peaty diet, rather I don't think restricting to the extent that avoiding sources of vA would require is necessary. Just as I don't advocate for people to stay away from every thing that naturally contains PUFA.

Also did you ever measure your visceral fat? One can most definitely have a fatty liver without being overweight just as they can have "diabetes."

I told him I was having trouble eating lower fat before he died and he told me that eating saturated fat is fine. But I was slowly unable to eat more and more things. I started using charcoal and I can now tolerate whole grains and beans. Toxic bile!!

If saturated fats are associated with fatty liver, does coconut oil overfeeding cause fatty liver?

 

[InChristAlone]

I think that as far as diet/nutrition goes, it's important to point out that it's highly probable that ANY diet, where you're in a consistent caloric surplus, where you're gaining body fat, even if slowly is going to also lead to an increase in fat in your liver.

Since I used myself as example, I was not in caloric excess. At the time I was only eating 1500-1700 calories. I undereat generally speaking. Because I ended up not being able to digest well. Acid reflux, IBS. Which let me tell you is going away pretty rapidly on the detox diet.

 

[Divingwater]

I can look at a person now and tell if they are "vitamin A" toxic, the signs are very clear. No doctor needed.

What are the most common symptoms?

 

[Divingwater]

to me it seems because
1. It is hard to diagnose without widely available good tests
2. In the absence of good test "subclinical toxicity" can be toxicity of many different sources.

Are you under the impression that doctors no longer use symptoms as indicators for diseases anymore?

 

[charlie]

What are the most common symptoms?

Skin quality, especially the face area. The amount of edema under and around the chin the chin area, the brightness and clarity of the eyes. Where the body fat is being carried for the over types. And the under types is a dead giveaway.

I had a family member come through about a month or so ago. The first moment I looked at her I thought to myself, oh man she is very toxic. I did not say anything to her. She went to the doctor for a well checkup and they have put the fear of God in her now. Her liver labs are very bad, and she is scared for her life now. I communicated through another family member, no worries, we can fix this no problem. Nothing to be scared of. She will be making a trip back to see me so she can start on her low toxin lifestyle journey and heal herself. No doctors needed.

 

[valzim]

It always blows my mind how Chris Masterjohn can get so much so wrong. He is not a good source of information. He does not even realize the basics of testing for vitamin A toxicity and that the blood tests are worthless when looking through the eye he is peering through. If you cannot even understand that basic premise then you are definitely not a person that should be trusted for a source on this subject.

The labs say Vitamin A deficiency is below .72 mmol/L. Grant is below .1.

This in itself blows up the entire Vitamin A deficiency idea. Dr. Smith is "deficient". Many people in both Grant's group and Dr. Smith's group are deficient. Not one person has added Vitamin A foods back in because they were seeing negative results. They ALL are seeing positive results. Case closed as far as I'm concerned.

My results are amazing. I've been on the avoid Vit A diet for about a year and a half. I think I went grey hair early because I was Vit toxic. I'm seeing some dark hairs come in. Hope it continues. I haven't had testosterone checked yet but I know it has exploded higher. My 1 patch of eczema is 95% clear. It takes a long time especially in places with very thin skin. The rest of my skin looks much healthier. I've put on about 5 pounds of muscle. I am not too much of an under type but in the somewhat under class. I'm getting stronger.

What Chris Masterjohn is saying is just regurgitating from the Big Medical textbooks. No original thought. Obviously he has not really looked at the studies, especially the Wolbach and Howe rat study that started this whole fiasco of Vit A being a vitamin. I will be low Vitamin A for the rest of my life.

 

[Validus]

Since I used myself as example, I was not in caloric excess. At the time I was only eating 1500-1700 calories. I undereat generally speaking. Because I ended up not being able to digest well. Acid reflux, IBS. Which let me tell you is going away pretty rapidly on the detox diet.

You're saying you were in a caloric deficit and had verified fatty liver?

Were you losing weight at that time?

I suppose there must be situations/circumstances where that can happen, in alcoholics as one example that comes to mind.

 

[Nimo]

You're saying you were in a caloric deficit and had verified fatty liver?

Were you losing weight at that time?

I suppose there must be situations/circumstances where that can happen, in alcoholics as one example that comes to mind.

i developed fatty liver on ray peat diet without adding any extra fat under my skin. when i visited doctor i was around 10%bf with really visible abs and muscular body. even my life style, wight lifting and running did not help me and that all fructose did harm to my body

 

[Bliss]

I am not a follower of Masterjohn, bit I think that most people may not be getting enough vitamin D (as stated by the OP's post), due to the fact that many modern people don't get enough outdoors, etc., and therefore maybe are seeing positive effects once they go on this low vitamin A diet. IMO if they would get out more in the sun, then they wouldn't have to go low vitamin A. But I guess for many that's not feasible nowadays

I supplemented vit A (extract from fish liver oil) 10,000iu/ day for 10 years. I also took vit D (2,000-3,000iu / day, unless I had done significant sunbathing that day). 10 months ago something I heard made me decide to stop. NOTHING ELSE in my diet / supplements changed, but within a week I developed a debilitating set of symptoms*. According to Masterjohn I was below the toxic threshold for intake even without vit D, but since I was concurrently supplementing vit D I should have been 32x below the toxic threshold.

*Symptoms were, breaking out in an itchy rash on my chest, followed by red itchy patches temporarily developing in various places all over. I began having pains at multiple locations across my midsection, developed non-stop headaches / migraines, stabbing pains in the head, pain behind the eyes, dry eyes, blurred vision, muscle pain, sunshine intollerance involving bloating, brain fog, fatigue and irritability. Additionally, various issues that had developed over those 10 years flared up or were exacerbated including back pain, mouth ulcers, ear cysts, tinitus, joint pain, bone pain, heart pain, worse hay fever, hair shedding, depression, irritability, anhedonia and fatigue. The worst of the symptoms resolved after 2-3 months. The remainder have slowly been improving since. There are various lab values and other conditions that I believe were also affected, but I have not yet re-tested / have yet to see improvement so can’t say. One objective measurement I have is HRV from Oura ring measurements. My average had been decreasing year on year from 33ms in 2020 when I started tracking, to 27ms in the first half of 2023. The first couple of months after stopping vit A supplementation it dipped lower still, to 25ms, but has been steadily gaining since, and the last two months I have been at 33-34ms.

 

[InChristAlone]

You're saying you were in a caloric deficit and had verified fatty liver?

Were you losing weight at that time?

I suppose there must be situations/circumstances where that can happen, in alcoholics as one example that comes to mind.

No I should have been more clear I don't know whether I had fatty liver. My triglycerides never went above the number that indicates that, but got very close! The number is now looking great on the detox diet. LDL is still not great though. I also never had high blood sugar. I think my bile was toxic.

 

[Divingwater]

Skin quality, especially the face area. The amount of edema under and around the chin the chin area, the brightness and clarity of the eyes. Where the body fat is being carried for the over types. And the under types is a dead giveaway.

I had a family member come through about a month or so ago. The first moment I looked at her I thought to myself, oh man she is very toxic. I did not say anything to her. She went to the doctor for a well checkup and they have put the fear of God in her now. Her liver labs are very bad, and she is scared for her life now. I communicated through another family member, no worries, we can fix this no problem. Nothing to be scared of. She will be making a trip back to see me so she can start on her low toxin lifestyle journey and heal herself. No doctors needed.

Makes sense but it sounds similar to hypothyroidism

 

[charlie]

Makes sense but it sounds similar to hypothyroidism

"vitamin A" toxicity causes hypothyroidism by burdening the liver. The liver controls the thyroid, not the other way around.

 

[hierundjetzt]

I supplemented vit A (extract from fish liver oil) 10,000iu/ day for 10 years. I also took vit D (2,000-3,000iu / day, unless I had done significant sunbathing that day). 10 months ago something I heard made me decide to stop. NOTHING ELSE in my diet / supplements changed, but within a week I developed a debilitating set of symptoms*. According to Masterjohn I was below the toxic threshold for intake even without vit D, but since I was concurrently supplementing vit D I should have been 32x below the toxic threshold.

*Symptoms were, breaking out in an itchy rash on my chest, followed by red itchy patches temporarily developing in various places all over. I began having pains at multiple locations across my midsection, developed non-stop headaches / migraines, stabbing pains in the head, pain behind the eyes, dry eyes, blurred vision, muscle pain, sunshine intollerance involving bloating, brain fog, fatigue and irritability. Additionally, various issues that had developed over those 10 years flared up or were exacerbated including back pain, mouth ulcers, ear cysts, tinitus, joint pain, bone pain, heart pain, worse hay fever, hair shedding, depression, irritability, anhedonia and fatigue. The worst of the symptoms resolved after 2-3 months. The remainder have slowly been improving since. There are various lab values and other conditions that I believe were also affected, but I have not yet re-tested / have yet to see improvement so can’t say. One objective measurement I have is HRV from Oura ring measurements. My average had been decreasing year on year from 33ms in 2020 when I started tracking, to 27ms in the first half of 2023. The first couple of months after stopping vit A supplementation it dipped lower still, to 25ms, but has been steadily gaining since, and the last two months I have been at 33-34ms.

I am glad you are feeling better. However, from your story it's really hard to say if the culprit was vitamin A or if your supplement was rancid (as can be the case with fish liver oil or fish oil supplements).

 

[peter88]

Have you tried the diet and lifestyle yourself? Because if none of you have tried but only try to discredit via academic papers then that is not being very "Peaty" of you and shows a low level of knowledge from experience.

I have tried it for a year. Serum retinol went from 35 to 45 and then eventually dropped to 25. Health didn’t improve at all. I have lots problems including gut issues and temperature issues, but avoiding retinol like the plague did nothing positive for me. My seb derm actually got a lot worse.

 

[InChristAlone]

I have tried it for a year. Serum retinol went from 35 to 45 and then eventually dropped to 25. Health didn’t improve at all. I have lots problems including gut issues and temperature issues, but avoiding retinol like the plague did nothing positive for me. My seb derm actually got a lot worse.

I think the new way to do vitamin A detox is to focus more on the liver than just reducing how much you eat. Did you do any liver support during the diet? I was able to clear up some serious gut issues with activated charcoal.

 

[Divingwater]

"vitamin A" toxicity causes hypothyroidism by burdening the liver. The liver controls the thyroid, not the other way around.

so how could you tell a difference symptoms only without blood tests?