Is Vitamin D Supplementation Even Neccessary

[sunny]

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O9tfw9cAjIw

 

[Jonk]

I saw this thread and it makes me wonder more about vitamin D supplements. Here are some of the responses…

“From the paper: "Could it be that the people we call ―Vitamin D deficient‖ actually have a normal level of 25-D? Studies which have tested the level of 25-D in people who live in countries where vitamin D is not added to the food chain prove this scenario to be true. A study which tested the level of 25-D in 90 ―healthy, ambulatory Chilean women‖ showed that 27% of the premenopausal and 60% of the postmenopausal women had 25-D levels under 20 ng/ml.[55]"”
“When I took high doses of Vit D (by itself), I ended up in the hospital with hypercalcemia.
Hypercalcemia, in case you don't know, is a medical emergency and can result in kidney failure.
Vit D in the absence of the other Fat-soluble Vitamins is not a good idea IMO.

Basically, there is no food which naturally contains Vit D which does not also contain Vit A/E/K. I think the only exception is mushrooms which contain a weaker, different form of Vit D.“

“So d3 should be avoided with autoimmune or other virus/infection until you are cured of the virus infection, once cured then you can add d3 again?”


“it’s hard not to get angry when you go into a store and look at the huge dairy section without one single milk that doesn’t have vitamin A D or both added (i know there are some exceptions like some u.n. homogenized/whole milks). How are humans so dumb to think it’s a good idea to make it a law to fortify every single food, giving no options to the consumer. same goes for wheat products, as if they ignore thousands of years of human nutrition without supplementing white bread/skim milk. who’s to blame for this? the government?”

“I notice the anti-A crowd (at least here) is rather large, at least comparatively speaking to other trends. Vitamin D could very well become toxic in smaller amounts during the absence of vitamin A.”

“I did have an "experience" with Throne K2/D like 30 drops on my tummy. It made my ears pop, feel pressure all day and at night I could hear a ringing, like the kind followed after a loud concert. Stopped the supplement and after a couple of days everything went better. I just heard RP say he only supps daily in winter. So maybe the dose makes the poisson and daily supplementation is too much.”

This Will Make You Never Want To Take Vitamin D Ever Again

The Truth About Vitamin D: Fourteen Reasons Why Misunderstanding Endures Summary: 1.Vitamin D is not a vitamin; it is an immunosuppressive steroid. 2.The vast majority of studies fail to account for the long-term effects of vitamin D. 3. Chronically ill people are not deficient in vitamin D...

raypeatforum.com

Thank you for the thorough reply. I do think there are risks with supplementing vitamin D but from my limited knowledge there seem to be more positive outcomes than negative. I often go back to what Ray Peat said that everything is possibly harmful when hypothyroid. It's seldom as easy as just taking one supplement but a whole system that needs to be addressed. I also think that the critiques of vitamin D supplementation often seem to be on the verge of fear mongering. Just the recent few weeks I've read and listened to so many people who got their lives back after getting getting their vitamin D levels up. Peat also has spoken about his own experience of burning from sun exposure but supplementing made him tolerate it again without any issues.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Thank you for the thorough reply. I do think there are risks with supplementing vitamin D but from my limited knowledge there seem to be more positive outcomes than negative. I often go back to what Ray Peat said that everything is possibly harmful when hypothyroid. It's seldom as easy as just taking one supplement but a whole system that needs to be addressed. I also think that the critiques of vitamin D supplementation often seem to be on the verge of fear mongering. Just the recent few weeks I've read and listened to so many people who got their lives back after getting getting their vitamin D levels up. Peat also has spoken about his own experience of burning from sun exposure but supplementing made him tolerate it again without any issues.

I go with what Ray Peat said in that he doesn’t recommend supplements much, and for good reason you have to know how to use them properly and know when to stop. My problem with supplements was the same, they worked wonders until they backfired. When things are going well it is hard to stop. You want to keep riding that great wave. I just quit everything to see where I was and to my surprise I liked where I was without them.

 

[sunny]

Vitamin D: Bioenergetic Wunderkind or Arbiter of Doom?

"What could be more important to understand than biological energy? Thought, growth, movement, every philosophical and practical issue involves the nature of biological energy." — Raymond Peat

dannyroddy.substack.com

 

[Jonk]

I go with what Ray Peat said in that he doesn’t recommend supplements much, and for good reason you have to know how to use them properly and know when to stop. My problem with supplements was the same, they worked wonders until they backfired. When things are going well it is hard to stop. You want to keep riding that great wave. I just quit everything to see where I was and to my surprise I liked where I was without them.

That's fair. But I don't think we should discourage people either. It should be nuanced so that people can make their own informed decisions. But yes I tend to agree that supplements should be a last resort, sort of thing.

 

[Jonk]

Glucose and sucrose for diabetes.

Diabetes was named for the excessive urination it causes, and for the sugar in the urine. It was called the sugar disease, and physicians were taught that sugar was the problem. Patients were ordered to avoid sweet foods, and in hospitals they were sometimes locked up to keep them from finding...

raypeat.com

"The free intracellular calcium that can become toxic is normally bound safely by well-energized mitochondria, and in the bloodstream it is kept safely complexed with carbon dioxide. The thyroid hormone, producing carbon dioxide, helps to sustain the level of ionized calcium (Lindblom, et al., 2001). In a vitamin D deficiency, or a calcium deficiency, the parathyroid hormone increases, and this hormone can contribute to many inflammatory and degenerative processes, including diabetes. Consuming enough calcium and vitamin D to keep the parathyroid hormone suppressed is important to protect against the degenerative conditions.

When animals were fed an otherwise balanced diet lacking vitamin D, with the addition of either 68% sucrose or 68% starch, the bones of those on the starch diet failed to develop normally, as would be expected with a vitamin D deficiency, and their serum calcium was low. However, the bones of those on the diet with sucrose developed properly, and didn't show evidence of being calcium deficient, though they weren't quite as heavy as those that also received an adequate amount of vitamin D (Artus, 1975). This study suggests that the famous dietetic emphasis on the "complex carbohydrates," i.e., starches, has made an important contribution to the prevalence of osteoporosis, as well as obesity and other degeneration conditions.

Both vitamin D and vitamin K, another important calcium-regulating nutrient, are now known to prevent diabetes. Both of these vitamins require carbon dioxide for disposing of calcium properly, preventing its toxicity. When carbon dioxide is inadequate, for example from simple hyperventilation or from hypothyroidism, calcium is allowed to enter cells, causing inappropriate excitation, sometimes followed by calcification.

Keeping an optimal level of carbon dioxide (for example, when adapted to high altitude) causes calcium to be controlled, resulting in lowered parathyroid hormone, an effect similar to supplementing with calcium, vitamin D, and vitamin K. (E.g., Nicolaidou, et al, 2006.) Glycine, like carbon dioxide, protects proteins against oxidative damage (Lezcano, et al., 2006), so including gelatin (very rich in glycine) in the diet is probably protective."

 

[Jonk]

Talk about vitamin D is between ~18:55-25:00

View: https://open.spotify.com/episode/7dF3JZBgn5RWL8MqktGFLJ?si=251e6a3414a147c8

Ray Peat: "I used to sunburn terribly from I guess my 20's through my 60's and at 7000 ft altitude I could get an intense sunburn in about 5 minutes.
But after I started supplementing vitamin D the next time I was in Mexico at over 7000 ft altitude I found that I didn't sunburn at all.
I could work outside for hours whitout turning bright red and I heard other people say that when they take vitamin D they can then expose themselves to sunlight without burning or with just a moderate degree of tanning. So if you are avoiding the sunlight for some reason then you absolutely need to supplement Vitamin D. It turns on all of the protective anti inflammatory processes."

(I transcribed and listened simultaneously so there might be small errors)

 

[charlie]

View: https://twitter.com/NutriDetect/status/1738673716312277267

 

[Mossy]

He used it topically.

I understand that Peat did not use D orally, he may have been in favor of the secosteroid, biochemically speaking, and I don't personally recall him recommending to use oral D. Some people just assume that if a health expert or scientist talks about the benefits of D, they are referring to 'taking D orally', when they may just be talking about what that compound is good for, or does in the body.

I think it's worth sharing that Peat did recommend taking D orally for some conditions. Such as for skin conditions, as @Peatogenic once asked him. (Not sure if Peatogenic is still a forum member.) :

"I asked Ray if oral or topical 25-OH D3 was best for skin conditions and he said oral."

 

[sunny]

I think it's worth sharing that Peat did recommend taking D orally for some conditions. Such as for skin conditions, as @Peatogenic once asked him. (Not sure if Peatogenic is still a forum member.) :

"I asked Ray if oral or topical 25-OH D3 was best for skin conditions and he said oral."

That's good to know. I had never seen that one.

 

[youngsinatra]

Supplemental vitamin D gives me extreme symptoms that resemble magnesium and potassium deficiency. Taking D makes me need extraordinary / unnaturally high amounts of Mg/K to feel normal again. It also gives me bladder pain. (symptoms of hypercalcuria)

It just makes me feel so awful. (Tried it so many times — different doses, orally/topical, in MCT, in olive oil, with K2 MK4 or MK7, with magnesium, calcium, potassium…)

Sun bathing (either natural sunlight in summer or tanning beds) does not produce those side effects for me personally. In contrast, sunbathing makes me feel awesome.

I know many that respond very badly to supplemental vitamin D.

 

[Dave Clark]

I think it's worth sharing that Peat did recommend taking D orally for some conditions. Such as for skin conditions, as @Peatogenic once asked him. (Not sure if Peatogenic is still a forum member.) :

"I asked Ray if oral or topical 25-OH D3 was best for skin conditions and he said oral."After

After reading much of the literature presented by Stephenson, Marshall, etc., I think what they share makes more sense to me than the current popular modality of taking oral D as a way to make yourself replete with this secosteroid. However, I do think that there are conditions that benefit from using D orally, mostly short term. I had a case of hives one time years ago, brought on when I was cleaning out my heating vents in the house. I had remembered there was a study using oral D to treat hives, so even though I was not using oral D, I did have some in the cupboard, and took about 5K units/day, and in a few days they were gone. I get sun in the summer, and use a Sperti D lamp sometimes in winter for my regular source of D. So, Peat was probably right about the skin, since the oral cleared up all the rashes, etc. in my skin.
I just think the using of oral D supplements is not a good thing long term.

 

[Mossy]

After reading much of the literature presented by Stephenson, Marshall, etc., I think what they share makes more sense to me than the current popular modality of taking oral D as a way to make yourself replete with this secosteroid. However, I do think that there are conditions that benefit from using D orally, mostly short term. I had a case of hives one time years ago, brought on when I was cleaning out my heating vents in the house. I had remembered there was a study using oral D to treat hives, so even though I was not using oral D, I did have some in the cupboard, and took about 5K units/day, and in a few days they were gone. I get sun in the summer, and use a Sperti D lamp sometimes in winter for my regular source of D. So, Peat was probably right about the skin, since the oral cleared up all the rashes, etc. in my skin.
I just think the using of oral D supplements is not a good thing long term.

I will have to look into their views. Would you say you've had success following their recommendations or have you not attempted yet?

I will add that to my notes on Vitamin D, that oral worked for hives for you.

You only use the Sperti D lamp sometimes? Is there a reason why you don't use it regularly? I had considered it may be the answer for me, considering my trouble with supplements.

 

[Dave Clark]

I will have to look into their views. Would you say you've had success following their recommendations or have you not attempted yet?

I will add that to my notes on Vitamin D, that oral worked for hives for you.

You only use the Sperti D lamp sometimes? Is there a reason why you don't use it regularly? I had considered it may be the answer for me, considering my trouble with supplements.

I have been off oral D supplements for several years. If anything, I am doing better. From my research and understanding, I believe that your body stores a good supply of hormone D in adipose tissue {that's how we get through the winter in cold climate areas without sun exposure, and a natural diet does not have much D in in, but maybe enough to trickle-charge our stores}. So, the Sperti-d lamp does not have to be used daily, and some would argue not at all in the winter, if you had good sun exposure during the summer. I use it maybe 2 or 3 times/week in the winter, just to keep the D levels replete, in case they are not {the storage D test, 25OH is a faulty test to determine accurate d levels, like testing for any fat-storing hormone, like estrogen. Blood levels don't tell you how much is available in the fat tissues}. The other factor, that you can read about on the group I mentioned, as well as elsewhere, is that the benefits of production of cholesterol sulfate from sun exposure, which can't be had by oral dosing. Also, it is talked about on the group that even if you have enough D in your system, if your VDRs {vitamin D receptors} are blocked, you will not be getting proper usage of that D. Things like EBV and other viruses, bacteria, etc. can block these receptors. They recommend consuming the herb rosemary, which has been shown to unblock the receptors. plus it is a beneficial herb anyway to use, it clears the liver of estrogen and is a potent antioxidant, etc. If you do not like the taste of rosemary, you can get it in capsule form on-line, but it worked out well for me because it has been my favorite herb for years, and I grow my own to use.
I think the benefit, if any of using oral D is to suppress the immune system, which is why it works for auto-immune and other conditions of an overactive immune response, and why it works for hives and other similar conditions. However, you have to ask yourself, do you want you immune system to be suppressed on a continual basis.

 

[Peater]

How long would it take the body to clear excess Vitamin D? It seems like prolonged sun exposure would help get things in balance.

 

[Mossy]

I have been off oral D supplements for several years. If anything, I am doing better. From my research and understanding, I believe that your body stores a good supply of hormone D in adipose tissue {that's how we get through the winter in cold climate areas without sun exposure, and a natural diet does not have much D in in, but maybe enough to trickle-charge our stores}. So, the Sperti-d lamp does not have to be used daily, and some would argue not at all in the winter, if you had good sun exposure during the summer. I use it maybe 2 or 3 times/week in the winter, just to keep the D levels replete, in case they are not {the storage D test, 25OH is a faulty test to determine accurate d levels, like testing for any fat-storing hormone, like estrogen. Blood levels don't tell you how much is available in the fat tissues}. The other factor, that you can read about on the group I mentioned, as well as elsewhere, is that the benefits of production of cholesterol sulfate from sun exposure, which can't be had by oral dosing. Also, it is talked about on the group that even if you have enough D in your system, if your VDRs {vitamin D receptors} are blocked, you will not be getting proper usage of that D. Things like EBV and other viruses, bacteria, etc. can block these receptors. They recommend consuming the herb rosemary, which has been shown to unblock the receptors. plus it is a beneficial herb anyway to use, it clears the liver of estrogen and is a potent antioxidant, etc. If you do not like the taste of rosemary, you can get it in capsule form on-line, but it worked out well for me because it has been my favorite herb for years, and I grow my own to use.
I think the benefit, if any of using oral D is to suppress the immune system, which is why it works for auto-immune and other conditions of an overactive immune response, and why it works for hives and other similar conditions. However, you have to ask yourself, do you want you immune system to be suppressed on a continual basis.

Good information. Thank you.

The EBV and blocked VDRs is very interesting. I don't mind rosemary, and may start with a tea. I'd be curious to know how you take it? I know over 90% of the world has EBV, at least dormant, but when I was at my worst EBV was active, as shown on my blood tests.

Is there any concern of burning or radiation from the Sperti-D lamp (if that's even possible)?

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

I have been off oral D supplements for several years. If anything, I am doing better. From my research and understanding, I believe that your body stores a good supply of hormone D in adipose tissue {that's how we get through the winter in cold climate areas without sun exposure, and a natural diet does not have much D in in, but maybe enough to trickle-charge our stores}. So, the Sperti-d lamp does not have to be used daily, and some would argue not at all in the winter, if you had good sun exposure during the summer. I use it maybe 2 or 3 times/week in the winter, just to keep the D levels replete, in case they are not {the storage D test, 25OH is a faulty test to determine accurate d levels, like testing for any fat-storing hormone, like estrogen. Blood levels don't tell you how much is available in the fat tissues}. The other factor, that you can read about on the group I mentioned, as well as elsewhere, is that the benefits of production of cholesterol sulfate from sun exposure, which can't be had by oral dosing. Also, it is talked about on the group that even if you have enough D in your system, if your VDRs {vitamin D receptors} are blocked, you will not be getting proper usage of that D. Things like EBV and other viruses, bacteria, etc. can block these receptors. They recommend consuming the herb rosemary, which has been shown to unblock the receptors. plus it is a beneficial herb anyway to use, it clears the liver of estrogen and is a potent antioxidant, etc. If you do not like the taste of rosemary, you can get it in capsule form on-line, but it worked out well for me because it has been my favorite herb for years, and I grow my own to use.
I think the benefit, if any of using oral D is to suppress the immune system, which is why it works for auto-immune and other conditions of an overactive immune response, and why it works for hives and other similar conditions. However, you have to ask yourself, do you want you immune system to be suppressed on a continual basis.

This post of yours Dave, has a lot of interesting stuff!

 

[Peater]

I haven't taken any for quite some time until recently, I rubbed the contents of a 10000IU capsule on my arm occasionally. Now I have a stye, and a cold. Funny coincidence, if nothing else. I used to take it daily, for ages.

 

[Dave Clark]

This post of yours Dave, has a lot of interesting stuff!

If some of that seems interesting, check out some of Jim Stephenson Jr.'s work over at Secosteroid Hormone D Face Book group, or check out some of Trevor Marshall's work on line. I used to take oral D, but now only do the sun and foods with D {not CLO, ahhh!}. I think their perspective and science makes a lot of sense, and probably why Ray did not use D orally as well. Like I said in the other post, oral D short term may be okay for suppressing an auto-immune response, etc., but I think in the long run it is problematic. This has been my current thinking, and so far, I have not been convinced to supplement D orally, at least for me anyway.

 

[Dave Clark]

Good information. Thank you.

The EBV and blocked VDRs is very interesting. I don't mind rosemary, and may start with a tea. I'd be curious to know how you take it? I know over 90% of the world has EBV, at least dormant, but when I was at my worst EBV was active, as shown on my blood tests.

Is there any concern of burning or radiation from the Sperti-D lamp (if that's even possible)?

Well, I live in the NorthEast US, and keeping rosemary alive through the winter takes some effort, but, I grow my own, harvest it in the fall, low heat dry it, store it in vacuum locked mason jars. I put some in a coffee/spice grinder and powder it{about a month's supply at a time}, and then either sprinkle it on food, or take by mouth about 1/8 or 1/4 tsp once or twice/day. You can buy, inexpensively, capsulated rosemary herb, but when you grow your own, you will have tons of it at no expense. It was mentioned that all of the anti-microbial herbs will clear the VDRs of virus, etc., like thyme, oregano, basil, clove, etc., but rosemary is the best at it.
I love the complex piney, minty, aroma and taste of rosemary, it has been my favorite herb long before I knew this.
On the Sperti-D lamp, the studies they had to do in order to have it FDA approved for their marketing, etc. showed that only 5 minute sessions raised the 25 OH D levels in the test subjects, which in most people is not enough time to cause any burn, and used at the proper distance from the lamp {about 16 inches or so}. I am not sure what you mean by radiation {EMFs?}, but I don't think it is a big issue, if any. The lamp does not have to be used every day, a few times/week is enough for the majority of people. I like Jim's analogy of these 25 OH D tests, which is the storage form of D, he says it is like checking the fuel line of your car to see how much gas is in your gas tank. Hormone d is stored in adipose tissue, so how can a blood test accurately tell you how much D you have in your body. I stopped taking that test, because, when I was taking oral D, and had blood levels of 65 {which is supposed to be good} I was not in good health, so I am not convinced that test tells you much of anything regarding your actual stores of D, or potential to use it, and counterintuitively make you think you are doing your body the best thing by keeping levels high by slamming your system with D that you may not need, and your body may not want. I just think, for this particular seco-steroid, let your body make what 'it' wants or needs, not what you tell it to, ultimately causing a possible imbalance of other nutrients, etc.

THE EFFECT OF ULTRAVIOLET RADIATION FROM A NOVEL PORTABLE FLUORESCENT LAMP ON SERUM 25-HYDROXYVITAMIN D3 LEVELS IN HEALTHY ADULTS WITH FITZPATRICK SKIN TYPES II AND III

Ultraviolet B irradiation may provide a safe and effective method to treat vitamin D deficiency. The objective of this study was to assess the effectiveness of a novel Sperti D/UV-Fluorescent lamp in converting 7-dehydrocholesterol (7-DHC) to previtamin ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov