Fructose And Endotoxin [edwardjedmonds]

[Elephanto]

@Amazoniac Haha, nice post.

 

[Amazoniac]

An allergic response to honey can be related to endotoxin due to a disproportionate amount of fructose in relation to glucose in some varieties, check this:

http://countryrubes.com/template/images/Honey_Crystallization.pdf

"It is natural for honey to crystallize since it is an over-saturated sugar solution. The two principal sugars in honey are fructose (fruit sugar) and glucose (grape sugar). The content of fructose and glucose in honey varies from one type of honey to the other. Generally, the fructose ranges from 30-44 % and glucose from 25-40%. The balance of these two major sugars is the main reason that leads to crystallization of honey, and the relative percentage of each determines whether it crystallizes rapidly or slowly. What crystallizes is the glucose, due to its lower solubility. Fructose is more soluble in water than glucose and will remain fluid. When glucose crystallizes, it separates from water and takes the form of tiny crystals. As the crystallization progresses and more glucose crystallizes, those crystals spread throughout the honey. The solution changes to a stable saturated form, and ultimately the honey becomes thick or crystallized.
Some honeys crystallize uniformly; some will be partially crystallized and form two layers, with the crystallized layer on the bottom of the jar and a liquid on top. Honeys also vary in the size of the crystals formed. Some form fine crystals and others large, gritty ones. The more rapid honey crystallizes, the finer the texture will be. Crystallized honey tends to set a lighter/paler colour than when liquid. This is due to the fact that glucose sugar tends to separate out in dehydrating crystals form, and that glucose crystals are naturally pure white. Darker honeys retain a brownish appearance."

"The time it will take the honey to crystallize depends mostly on the ratio of fructose to glucose, the glucose to water ratio. Honey high in glucose sugar, with a low fructose to glucose ratio will crystallize more rapidly, such as alfalfa, cotton, dandelion, mesquite, mustard and rape (brassica napus). Honey with a higher fructose to glucose ratio (containing less than 30% glucose) crystallizes quite slowly and can stay liquid for several years without special treatment, for example, robinia (black locust), sage, longan, tupelo and jujube/sidr (ziziphus spina-christi).
The higher the glucose and the lower the water content of honey, the faster the crystallization. Oppositely, honey with less glucose relative to water is a less saturated glucose solution and is slow to crystallize. Honey with heightened water content often crystallizes unevenly (not as a homogeneous mass) and separates into crystallized and liquid parts."

--
Absorption capacity of fructose in healthy adults. Comparison with sucrose and its constituent monosaccharides.

"The difference between the absorption capacity of fructose given as sucrose and fructose alone is striking (Figs 1 and 2)."
"It is readily apparent from Fig. 3 and Table 2 that the absorption capacity of fructose was greatly enhanced by the addition of glucose to the mixture in a dose dependent fashion. The greatest effect was seen with equivalent amounts of fructose and glucose, whereas an increasing fraction was malabsorbed as the amount of glucose added was diminished."

"In the present study we have shown that in the healthy state, large individual variations exist in the absorption capacity of fructose, and that the total absorption capacity is even lower than previously believed.[6] Some healthy individuals may fail to absorb as little as a 5g dose.
Furthermore, we have shown that ingestion of fructose as sucrose does not result in appreciable malabsorption and that the addition of glucose to fructose solutions promote fructose absorption in a dose dependent manner. Thus, it seems that malabsorption of fructose in fructose+glucose mixtures is only measurable if fructose is present in excess of glucose. It is now apparent that fructose malabsorption may be considered a normal phenomenon in the healthy state, in analogy with malabsorption of wheat starch[19 20] and up to 30-40g fructose may be malabsorbed without causing significant abdominal discomfort in the healthy state."

"The low absorption capacity of fructose given as the monosaccharide contrasts sharply with our finding of a very high absorption capacity of fructose ingested as sucrose. Studies using perfusion techniques have also suggested that sucrose is very efficiently absorbed.[21] This may either suggest an effect of the presence of glucose or of the process of hydrolysis or both. Earlier perfusion studies have shown that absorption rates of fructose from mixtures of equivalent amounts of fructose and glucose are similar to absorption rates of fructose from a corresponding amount of sucrose.[22 23] This is in accordance with our findings which strongly suggests that the presence of glucose is the crucial point."

"A transient fructose malabsorption has been described in infants and the phenomenon may be related to bacterial overgrowth of the small intestine.[33]"

No wonder why endotoxemia occurs in lab animals fed an excess of plain fructose.

--
Moderate dietary protein restriction alters the composition of gut microbiota and improves ileal barrier function in adult pig model : Scientific Reports
Biogenic amine - Wikipedia

Someone I know used to experience a burning sensation with liquid honeys but it stopped after switching to crystallized ones.

Adding to the above for those that missed:
Best Type Of Honey To Get

 

[Inaut]

going fruitarian is a very good way to go through the day with very stable blood sugar levels and a good supply of water, fiber, vitamins and minerals

then it's dinner time and that's when it's time to eat large amounds of (whole) animal foods. With the good fats. EZPZ.

That's exactly how i tend to eat :)

 

[Amazoniac]

Holy crap...this might have some serious implications. When I was coughing up a lot of mucus, I was eating a ton of raisins and using honey liberally...

Was the honey light in color and crystallized? These are usually the least allergenic. If I remember it right, it's the complex sugars that tend to form the liquid portion that refuses to solidify.

- Sugars Containing Galactose Occur in Honey

"The average value for 81 honeys was 3·1 mg (as galactose) per 100 g honey."

- Enzymatic Determination of Galactose and Lactose in Honey

"The galactose content of the honeys analyzed ranged between 0.0052 and 0.0151%."​

Speaking of crystals, my crystal ball told me that this kind of structure (hyphen, link and indentation) annoys you. Knowing this and still posting is not for mere entertainment; I find it more organized. More organized. More organized. Order.

 

[Tarmander]

Was the honey light in color and crystallized? These are usually the least allergenic. If I remember it right, it's the complex sugars that tend to form the liquid portion that refuses to solidify.

- Sugars Containing Galactose Occur in Honey

"The average value for 81 honeys was 3·1 mg (as galactose) per 100 g honey."

View attachment 12050​

- Enzymatic Determination of Galactose and Lactose in Honey

"The galactose content of the honeys analyzed ranged between 0.0052 and 0.0151%."​

Speaking of crystals, my crystal ball told me that this kind of structure (hyphen, link and indentation) annoys you. Knowing this and still posting is not for mere entertainment; I find it more organized. More organized. More organized. Order.

Very interesting, I did not know this about the color.

 

[Amazoniac]

- not responding to thyroid

Lucy, the first time I made contact with Ray my question was about the fact that I couldn't (and still can't) consumed fruits of any kind (even those with low water content and low acidity like dates or bananas) without bowel irritation...
At this time, I thought that the problem was the acidity content of fruits ( not really the case for dates or bananas ) and shared this feeling with him.
His response was that for those with bowel inflammation the sugar (fructose, I guess) in fruits could worsen the inflammation, he was no more explicit than that....And ,you're right, the strained orange juice still have the sugar without the part which could cause endotoxins production (mainly the pulp residual and fiber...) but ,still, I can't handle the strained juice.
He told me that in the context of people WITH bowel inflammation. And fructose (as well as lactose)malabsorption is a common problem with people having IBD. So during the inflammation period I stay away from fruits and milk and use cheese with white rice or peeled white potatoes along with refined coconut oil and butter as well as gelatin in form of stews.
Back to the Kelp/iodine stuff if you search on Lita Lee's website you will find that, during an interview with her ,Ray said 150mcg of iodine is a safe supplementation dose. And in his book "Nutrition for women" he even recommend 200mcg of iodine in the form of Kelp.
My point is , like I said in my previous post, with Ray, everything is a matter of context/situation.
And, at least for me and my situation back then, Ray ( like he usually is) was right.

 

[Amazoniac]

Spoiler: Guess

[1] Making Apple Cider Vinegar | Farmer Dre
[2] Green process development for apple-peel pectin production by organic acid extraction

Spoiler

May have to dehydrate and pulverize in advance to increase exposed area.

 

[YourUniverse]

Spoiler: Guess

View attachment 17956

[1] Making Apple Cider Vinegar | Farmer Dre
[2] Green process development for apple-peel pectin production by organic acid extraction

Spoiler

View attachment 17957
May have to dehydrate and pulverize in advance to increase exposed area.

Lol

 

[Amazoniac]

Lol

Another process diagramed:

- Optimization of method for extraction of pectin from apple pomace

Spoiler

 

[zarrin77]

refined sugar / fructose can definitely have negative effects on the liver and body fat %.

Sugar-sweetened beverages (sodas and refined / clear fruit juices) are known for this. Simplistically, the frucose goes to the liver first, and if not in a calorie deficit, can either get burned for energy, stored as liver glycogen, get turned into glucose, or get converted and stored as triglyceride.

With refined sugar sources, the fructose has an increased capacity to get turned to fat. With unrefined sources (whole fruits, cloudy fruit juices, honey, agave, etc), the fiber and polyphenols decrease enzyme expression of enzymes such as “fatty acid synthase” in the liver, thus decreasing the capacity for fructose to get stored as fat.
Inhibition of Fatty Acid Synthase by Polyphenols - PubMed
[Review: Plant Polyphenols Modulate Lipid Metabolism and Related Molecular Mechanism] - PubMed
Dietary Polyphenols and Obesity
Suppression of Hepatic Lipogenesis by Pectin and Galacturonic Acid Orally-Fed at the Separate Timing From Digestion-Absorption of Nutrients in Rat - PubMed
Pectin Supplementation in Rats Mitigates Age-Related Impairment in Insulin and Leptin Sensitivity Independently of Reducing Food Intake - PubMed

Due to this (in part), whole fruits are generally protective against obesity whereas refined sugars or sugar sweetened beverages promote obesity:
Paradoxical Effects of Fruit on Obesity
Sugar-Sweetened Beverages and Weight Gain in Children and Adults: A Systematic Review from 2013 to 2015 and a Comparison with Previous Studies

Moreover, refined fructose (especially combined with refined saturated fat) tends to lower ATP and induce oxidative stress in the liver:
The severity of rat liver injury by fructose and high fat depends on the degree of respiratory dysfunction and oxidative stress induced in mitochondria
^^(I could post like 15 studies showing this)

Whole fruits do not do this because all of the other phytonutrients (polyphenols, proanthocyanidins, tannins, etc) facilitate proper REDOX function, keeping ATP high and the mitochondria working properly.


Lastly, only unrefined sugar sources lower endotoxin from a high fat junk meal:

Orange juice neutralizes the proinflammatory effect of a high-fat, high-carbohydrate meal and prevents endotoxin increase and Toll-like receptor expression
“
Orange juice neutralizes the proinflammatory effect of a high-fat, high-carbohydrate meal and prevents endotoxin increase and Toll-like receptor expression”

 

[lvysaur]

Can anyone comment on this passage by Edward Edmonds?

Unifying biology (3) Ketogenesis and hypoxia - The Last Breath

As I have reflected on in the past, glucose is a primitive energy substrate, a glucose driven metabolism, contrasted with glucose used as a biosynthetic substrate in the context of a fatty acid driven metabolism, will drive primitive histophysiology and the subsequent degeneration of the orchestra.

I think many Peaters agree that when they feel their best, they prefer higher fat, but non-keto foods. Let's say a fatty beef bowl with some root veggies.
With such foods, one is consuming significant fat and carb, so what is the significance of this highly coveted meal-type?

This quote by Edmonds ("glucose as a substrate for a fat driven metabolism") seems to intuitively explain it by implicating both glucose and fat as necessary, but what exactly does it mean?

 

[Korven]

Can anyone comment on this passage by Edward Edmonds?

Unifying biology (3) Ketogenesis and hypoxia - The Last Breath



I think many Peaters agree that when they feel their best, they prefer higher fat, but non-keto foods. Let's say a fatty beef bowl with some root veggies.
With such foods, one is consuming significant fat and carb, so what is the significance of this highly coveted meal-type?

This quote by Edmonds ("glucose as a substrate for a fat driven metabolism") seems to intuitively explain it by implicating both glucose and fat as necessary, but what exactly does it mean?

I think his idea is that the human body runs best on oxidizing fats for the production of ATP via beta-oxidation, while preventing ketosis by supplying enough glucose for things like pentose phosphate pathway to make NADPH (for biosynthesis of other molecules and to support glutathione etc.)

I did try his diet out at one point, drinking whole milk and eating beef and no sugar. Had smooth stable energy throughout the day but sleep started to suffer because 100-120 g carbs just wasn't enough for me.

 

[ursidae]

starch is superior
The motto “it’s not the milk’s fault, it’s your fault” should be applied to starch instead

 

[schultz]

starch is superior

Negative. Sucrose, fructose and lactose are superior.

 

[Jessie]

I think many Peaters agree that when they feel their best, they prefer higher fat, but non-keto foods.

I tend to do best with low levels fat. I eat roughly 2,500-2,600 calories daily and only about 25-30 grams of total fat. That's roughly a 9% fat based diet, give or take. There's some days it may be slightly higher because I like eating oxtail that's been boiled down into a soup, it's a fatty dish. But even then I try to skim as much fat out as possible.

Mixing too much carbohydrate with fat tends to mess with my leptin sensitivity. A high fat high carb meal will make me feel full for like an hour, and then I'll be hungry again shortly thereafter. If you're wanting to displace PUFA, the best solution is to eat mostly sugar with small amounts of stearic/palmitic rich foods like cocoa, beef, lamb, parm reggiano, tallow.

Works for weight loss too, but changing the long chain fats for more MCTs would probably accelerate weight loss quicker. I've also noticed too much protein tends to slow weight loss, which sounds counter intuitive given the thermogenic effect it has. But keeping protein at or under 20% made me lose a few pounds, and I wasn't even concerned about my weight. My only theory is I must have been prone to converting protein to fat through gluconeogenesis and lipogenisis.

I think dropping the protein helps the liver in storing glycogen, rather then wasting time converting protein to glucose. But idk, just a theory of mine. I can't deny the apparent fat loss though by cutting protein some.

 

[Nomane Euger]

I had a jar of honey that didn't agree with me so much. I left it abandoned until deciding what to do. After a long time it crystallized and a fluid layer remained on top, just like the separation of fats. I discarted the liquid part and to my surprise it was perfectly fine.
There's something special about lighter (color) and opaque honeys, they seem more balanced. Most of them crystallize fast.

hi amazoniac,yes lighter opaques honey are life,i can eat up to 180-250 grammes of honey like french meadow honey in one go and feel awesome dancing on oumou sangaré african musics,on the other hand clear honey that remain liquid a copples of years like acacia honey past 60-70 grammes(organic raw from the same bee keeper than the meadow one)give me the worst stomach ache of my life coppled with a neck ache nd lower back ache that last half an hour up until i ***t my intestins

 

[TheBeard]

hi amazoniac,yes lighter opaques honey are life,i can eat up to 180-250 grammes of honey like french meadow honey in one go and feel awesome dancing on oumou sangaré african musics,on the other hand clear honey that remain liquid a copples of years like acacia honey past 60-70 grammes(organic raw from the same bee keeper than the meadow one)give me the worst stomach ache of my life coppled with a neck ache nd lower back ache that last half an hour up until i ***t my intestins

Raw crystalized honey is great

 

[Sefton10]

I had a jar of honey that didn't agree with me so much. I left it abandoned until deciding what to do. After a long time it crystallized and a fluid layer remained on top, just like the separation of fats. I discarted the liquid part and to my surprise it was perfectly fine.
There's something special about lighter (color) and opaque honeys, they seem more balanced. Most of them crystallize fast.

I've found this recently with an organic wildflower honey I started buying in bulk (3.5kg tub). I decant it into a couple of glass jars and it crystallises in a week or so with a thick, gritty texture. This suggests it is pretty balanced in terms of glucose/fructose, or is at least higher in glucose than many honeys. It works really well for me just spooned onto meat or fish as a carb source.

Anyone in the UK interested this is the brand: Organic Wildflower Honey | Buy Organic Wildflower Honey Online

 

[TheBeard]

I've found this recently with an organic wildflower honey I started buying in bulk (3.5kg tub). I decant it into a couple of glass jars and it crystallises in a week or so with a thick, gritty texture. This suggests it is pretty balanced in terms of glucose/fructose, or is at least higher in glucose than many honeys. It works really well for me just spooned onto meat or fish as a carb source.

Anyone in the UK interested this is the brand: Organic Wildflower Honey | Buy Organic Wildflower Honey Online

Crystalization suggests it's raw and unheated.

 

[Sefton10]

Crystalization suggests it's raw and unheated.

Yes, they don't specifically refer to it as raw though, maybe there are some hoops to jump through for that labelling. They just label it as "cold extracted, cold filtered and unblended to protect the natural proteins and enzymes in this premium honey" - which basically sounds raw to me!