Gaining Muscle Olympic Weightlifting With Peat-style Nutrition

[cantstoppeating]

You claim to eat 4-6k calories while staying <10% body fat all the while being sedentary -- crediting "Peat's uncouplers" and high C02 levels.

Care to post a picture of your waist line? No need to show your face, that way you'll stay annonymous.

I use this calculator
http://www.free-online-calculator-use.c ... calculator

I am 72 inches in height, have a 16 inch neck and a 31-32 inch waist. I guess I could do pics of me measuring my waist and neck with the tape measure number showing (and maybe a current newspaper)?

But I don't know if this is helpful, since I don't want anyone to think that losing lean body mass by "dieting" is any kind of a healthy goal! It is the opposite of healthy!!!

In the Peatian perspective, if you simply increase your metabolism until it measures 5-6% exhaled CO2, then you will lose fat -- but not lean body mass!.

And if before your metabolism reaches this level, you somehow lose weight by cutting calories or some other kind of dangerous nonsense, then you are actually hurting yourself through starvation! And yes, you know who I mean, desperate-to-loss-weight-at-all-costs forum members!

So please don't focus on losing weight or my waistline. That will come, I promise! Just make it your goal to boost your metabolism to 5-6% exhaled CO2 and all the other good things, including fat loss, will follow.

Sure, a picture of your waist line with a newspaper with "VoS" on it would be fine and it would help take your hyperbolic claims seriously.

BTW, when anyone talks about weight loss, certainly when I do, we're talking about fatloss and not loss of lean body mass.

 

[cantstoppeating]

...


If you do want to gain muscle without fat, even without exercise, the simple Peatian trick is to keep having casein all the time, literally, even once an hour. Don't starve yourself for two hours or more, and then have a big meal. It will be too late: Your muscles start to waste away within about 90 minutes of being deprived of casein.

Can you also link to what you've used to conclude the above?

Here's plenty of studies done that show, for example, eating once or twice after a period of fasting i.e. "intermittent fasting", does not degrade muscle mass and in fact increases muscle synthesis by keeping anabolic hormones (e.g. testosterone) elevated which are otherwise blunted via frequent feeding:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11319710
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11103227
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20436220
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2392062
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?ter ... rm+fasting.

Either way, when it comes to showing proof of your claims, VoS, you remain silent. How unfortunate.

 

[jyb]

You claim to eat 4-6k calories while staying <10% body fat all the while being sedentary -- crediting "Peat's uncouplers" and high C02 levels.

I don't think eating 4-6kcal while remaining athletic and sedentary requires any proof, if you're not very prone to gain weight to start with and if you avoid the conventional pufa foods...

 

[cantstoppeating]

You claim to eat 4-6k calories while staying <10% body fat all the while being sedentary -- crediting "Peat's uncouplers" and high C02 levels.

I don't think eating 4-6kcal while remaining athletic and sedentary requires any proof, if you're not very prone to gain weight to start with and if you avoid the conventional pufa foods...

Athletic and sedentary? You can't remain as both at the same time.

On the contrary it does. Have you tried eating 4-6kcal while remaining sedentary and remaining under 10% body fat?

VoS said he would anyway, so I guess he's busy taking them or it was simply a bluff.

 

[jyb]

Athletic and sedentary? You can't remain as both at the same time.

On the contrary it does. Have you tried eating 4-6kcal while remaining sedentary and remaining under 10% bodyfat?

I meant being sedentary while remaining in athletic shape, i.e. that sort of body fat and muscles in intact shape, not shrinking. There are many things that could burn a lot of calories while sedentary. A stimulated brain, a good metabolism, or even stress. I'm not sure what maintains muscles, maybe enough quality proteins like from milk. Drinking a few litters of milk on top of other products is a lot of proteins, I'm guessing enough for maintenance while sedentary. It was enough for me over the last years.

 

[visionofstrength]

Athletic and sedentary? You can't remain as both at the same time.

On the contrary it does. Have you tried eating 4-6kcal while remaining sedentary and remaining under 10% bodyfat?

...There are many things that could burn a lot of calories while sedentary. A stimulated brain, a good metabolism ...

Yes, Peat thinks that, at rest, the brain and liver function are the two biggest producers of energy. His idea is that, in the liver and brain, the foods themselves, fructose, casein and coconut/MCT oil (along with coffee, thyroid and aspirin), seem to be "uncouplers," meaning that when consumed together (in small frequent doses) more energy is produced (i.e., largely by the liver and brain) than those foods contain, as the mitochondria begin burning glucose very efficiently, and creating more CO2.

Consumed along with redlight, CO2, and vitamins and minerals, I find the effect of these "uncouplers" gives a calm, focussed energy, great for taking on a new, or seemingly difficult task, or just for going on a nature hike. The task and the hike often boost CO2 and metabolism even more.

 

[visionofstrength]

...when it comes to showing proof of your claims, VoS, you remain silent. How unfortunate.

Sorry to disappoint! I don't mean to steer you in one direction or another. If you would like to try intermittent fasting, give it a go!

I did, for at least a couple years. It worked great, for getting swollen muscles and a gaunt face. But my metabolism also got completely wrecked. Exhaled CO2 at rest was less than 4%!

Coincidence? Perhaps, but when I started small, frequent doses of the Peatian uncouplers, metabolism got a whole lot better, as measured by my exhaled CO2 of 5-6% -- and I'm still hoping to push it higher!

I don't really believe much of what's published in studies, because it seems obvious to me that they must be financed, directly or indirectly, by the profiteering of the pharma/food corporations. I pretty much just study Peat and Ling and the work they reference -- that's already a lot!

But a forum member haidut has looked into this, and has posted studies about protein dosing.
viewtopic.php?f=75&t=4085&p=49284
viewtopic.php?f=75&t=4099&p=49517

 

[cantstoppeating]

After questioning your claims, I asked for a picture of your waist line as others have posted in the getting ripped thread.

You claim to eat 4-6k calories while staying <10% body fat all the while being sedentary -- crediting "Peat's uncouplers" and high C02 levels.

Care to post a picture of your waist line? No need to show your face, that way you'll stay annonymous.

You said:

...
I guess I could do pics of me measuring my waist and neck with the tape measure number showing (and maybe a current newspaper)?
...

Yet you didn't follow through.

And now you're saying:

Sorry to disappoint! I don't mean to steer you in one direction or another. If you would like to try intermittent fasting, give it a go!

...

Which leads me to believe all you do is selectively read Peat and a few studies then come onto these forums and wax lyrical about co2 levels and uncouplers and how they should 'melt fat' all the while consuming 4-6kcal and being sedentary.

For all I know you're a slightly overweight guy who's been Peating for a while now and is propagating such claims because in theory they're supposed to work but they haven't.

Please don't misinform people. If you want us to take your claims seriously, post a pic of your waistline otherwise let's not perpetuate hyperbolic claims.

 

[aquaman]

...


If you do want to gain muscle without fat, even without exercise, the simple Peatian trick is to keep having casein all the time, literally, even once an hour. Don't starve yourself for two hours or more, and then have a big meal. It will be too late: Your muscles start to waste away within about 90 minutes of being deprived of casein.

Can you also link to what you've used to conclude the above?

Here's plenty of studies done that show, for example, eating once or twice after a period of fasting i.e. "intermittent fasting", does not degrade muscle mass and in fact increases muscle synthesis by keeping anabolic hormones (e.g. testosterone) elevated which are otherwise blunted via frequent feeding:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11319710
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11103227
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20436220
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2392062
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?ter ... rm+fasting.

Either way, when it comes to showing proof of your claims, VoS, you remain silent. How unfortunate.

Irrespective of VoS' claims, intermittent fasting is about as far away from Peat as you can get. like diametrically opposite.

One of Peat's central points, is for people who don't have good blood sugar regulation/live glycogen (ie hypothyroid people), then 1-2 hours of fasting can have a significant negative effect, let alone 16 hours of fasting.

He has advised people to set alarm clocks for every hour of the night and wake up, have some sugar to offset the stress response before it kicks in. So yes, 16 hour fasting couldn't be further away from Peat's ideas if you tried! (well, maybe except a week long water fast!).

 

[nikotrope]

True that a pic or it didn't happen. But before saying that's not true, it may be better to just try out for a month exactly what VoS is saying. I think taking all the uncouplers is very important (until metabolism and health are fully restored).

I've tried to eat regularly through the day milk, sugar, coconut oil, salt, aspirin, vitamin k2 and vitamin e but it is the addition of caffeine that made a real difference. And I think some thyroid would boost me even more. I will order niacinamide soon to test too.

I think the quantity is really important. I currently take 4*100mg caffeine (plus maybe 100mg with tea and red bull) and my temps and pulse got a little boost. I can't handle single doses of 200mg caffeine just yet but I did 3*200mg for a day and a lot of things improved (but adrenaline and cortisol might have been a little high).

My nose is clearer (probably because of better CO2 production), my digestion is better and faster, my energy and libido up, my eyes less dry. I still have a water retention problem and don't lose weight. But I think the liver and intestines take time to heal and when it's done you can lose weight (well I hope!). And the problem is not calories, for sure!

And each time I eat something I should not (like pasta the past weekend) my nose is more congested, my digestion and my water retention problem worsened. So being strict might be important too or each time you deviate you will lose all the benefits you got.

 

[aquaman]

Back to the question from OP, if you want to gain muscle, do 30 minutes of compund lifting, 2x per week, and step up or down. Take plenty of rest between sets, breathe through your nose to minimise lactic acid build-up (ie you should rarely be getting out of breath).

BTW this is coming from experience, i now do far less training than I ever have in terms of volume, and I have more lean mass then ever before. I have added fat as I've grown as I've not been controlled enough with my diet (ie I eat 4000 calories one day, 2500 another, way too random). I'm 205 pounds at about 18% bodyfat.

Start from a low point, get perfect form, control the lifts.

Monitor your performance (in terms of weight, reps and *time under tension* per exercise), and make it go up every time you work out. I'd aim for 3-5 seconds on the up and down movement. At 5 seconds up and down, you're doing 1 minute sets at 6 reps (6 x 10 seconds for one movement). If you can't get your time under tension or total weight at same time up, then you need more rest days, or need to improve your diet/recovery/sleep more.

With 2 training sessions per week, you could do push and pull days.

So:

workout 1
Bench/DB Press x3
Squat x3
Tricep extensions x3
Leg extension x3 [if you can handle this, perhaps work up to adding this 4th exercise]

Workout 2
Chinups or barbell pulls x3
hamstring Leg curl machine x3
Dumbbell barbell curls x3
[could add a 4th exercise like a DB shoulder raise when you're ready]

Then you're having 3-4 days of rest between workouts.

Start to do the minimum weight/volume that gets a response. And train for a year solidly! It's injuries and illness that stop improvement, and these come from overtraining, and then lead to a few weeks or more off.

You don't need to have DOMS or pain to get muscle growth.

Eat well (your diet above is OK), sleep earlier, wake up earlier, get plenty of light etc

 

[aquaman]

Related to the above:

One thing I never understood is when women would tell me that Yoga toned them up. I scoffed at comments like that.

Now I understand that they are inadvertently practising the principles of minumum effective dose, and also recovery/anti-stress effets.

Yoga is a minimal strain on the muscles, but can be enough to get a response causing some growth.

Also the breathing, controlled movements, and mental clarity and stillness it brings aids in recovery and anti-stress, therefore improving hormone production and having a muslce building effect.

You can read about this at the RTS website:
http://www.resistancetrainingspecialist ... ssion.html

MicroProgression®

Proper progression is a tough sell. Everybody wants immediate results. However, the effects of poor progression can be severe, far-reaching, and even systemic. Not only do we take progression too lightly, but we're actually conditioned to think that "shocking your body" is the key to success... and we're led to believe that the often injurious effects are signs of a "good workout." In fact, some professionals don't even realize that delayed onset muscle soreness is actually an indication of a degree of injury.

No matter how fast you want to change, your body can only adapt in microscopic steps at the cellular and chemical level. Therefore progression should be implemented in the smallest reasonable "MicroProgressive" steps. This applies to all areas that can be manipulated or progressed: control, rom, unstable surfaces, effort, intensity, speed, reps, sets, load, "cardio" time, etc. The bottom line is that progression is much, much more than simply adding weight or adding "wobble"!

MicroProgression® is not only considered to be a key to long-term success, but it is also a key to reducing risk. The implementation of this RTS principle allows for improvement in both tissue integrity and motor performance. MicroProgression® also dictates that an assessment never exceed the current ability.

How much is enough? "The least amount of unaccustomed activity!"

 

[visionofstrength]

Please don't misinform people. If you want us to take your claims seriously, post a pic of your waistline otherwise let's not perpetuate hyperbolic claims.

I'm conflicted about this, as I tried to say above. Posting a pic of a headless torso wouldn't prove anything, would it? It could be anybody's torso!

More importantly, I don't want to foster a slavish devotion to slim waistlines, when the only real goal is metabolic: Increasing exhaled CO2 throughout the day and night. Focussing on slim waistlines is largely at odds with this metabolic goal. Anyday you cut calories too much is a day you've impaired your metabolism.

Instead, just focus on what you eat, and how often, not how much. If you can stick to small frequent doses of fructose, casein and coconut/MCT oil (along with thyroid, coffee and niacinamide/aspirin), your body can't help but burn more calories than you consume. I've experimented with very large amounts of only these foods, and for me, they add nothing to bodyfat.

But you can just as easily run that experiment yourself, right?

 

[visionofstrength]

I've tried to eat regularly through the day milk, sugar, coconut oil, salt, aspirin, vitamin k2 and vitamin e but it is the addition of caffeine that made a real difference. And I think some thyroid would boost me even more. I will order niacinamide soon to test too.

I think the quantity is really important. I currently take 4*100mg caffeine (plus maybe 100mg with tea and red bull) and my temps and pulse got a little boost. I can't handle single doses of 200mg caffeine just yet but I did 3*200mg for a day and a lot of things improved (but adrenaline and cortisol might have been a little high).

I agree that quantity and consistency is really important.

At Peat's suggestion, I've taken to using very strong or instant coffee. He thinks "coffee is much more than caffeine", and is especially high in magnesium. I find I can use 18 teaspoons of instant coffee if it is mixed with nonfat milk, honey or fructose, and gelatin to make a kind of delicious, inexpensive panna cotta.*

It seems the gelatin, milk and fructose make it a lot easier to consume the large quantity of caffeine, without getting jitters. There's about 1200 mg of caffeine in 18 teaspoons of instant coffee!

*Recipes for panna cotta here: http://seattletimes.com/html/foodwine/2 ... tta20.html

 

[nikotrope]

The thing is... I really hate the taste of coffee!

 

[visionofstrength]

The thing is... I really hate the taste of coffee!

Me too! I can't stand instant coffee plain. But with the milk, fructose and gelatin it's more like a coffee-flavored dessert.

With caffeine it's very hard for me to get a large quantity mixed in with sufficient food so it gets absorbed slowly. I don't like how I feel either with a bolus dose of 200 mg of caffeine. Too wired!

 

[cantstoppeating]

Please don't misinform people. If you want us to take your claims seriously, post a pic of your waistline otherwise let's not perpetuate hyperbolic claims.

I'm conflicted about this, as I tried to say above. Posting a pic of a headless torso wouldn't prove anything, would it? It could be anybody's torso!

More importantly, I don't want to foster a slavish devotion to slim waistlines, when the only real goal is metabolic: Increasing exhaled CO2 throughout the day and night. Focussing on slim waistlines is largely at odds with this metabolic goal. Anyday you cut calories too much is a day you've impaired your metabolism.

Instead, just focus on what you eat, and how often, not how much. If you can stick to small frequent doses of fructose, casein and coconut/MCT oil (along with thyroid, coffee and niacinamide/aspirin), your body can't help but burn more calories than you consume. I've experimented with very large amounts of only these foods, and for me, they add nothing to bodyfat.

But you can just as easily run that experiment yourself, right?

The fact that you think people are going to automatically become waistline/calorie restriction devotees after seeing a pic of someone's slim waist who eats 4-6kcal a day while being sedentary is beyond me.

If I saw someone eating 4-6kcal a day while being sedentary while being under 10% body fat then I'd be compelled to start increasing my caloric intake, with frequent doses of milk+OJ, with the goal of increasing metabolism.

Anyway, you offered to show a picture with a current newspaper but then dodged it when I called you out. My thoughts about you are confirmed. I'd put money on the fact that you're somewhat overweight. But anyway, let's drop this and not get off-topic any further.

 

[visionofstrength]

No, I think it's a valid point. I do struggle with it. I want to help people make good choices.

But I guess I ask myself what would Ray Peat do? And I don't think he'd publish pictures of his purportedly slim waistline so that he could make a more compelling case. He's said he doesn't want to steer people, which he feels may impair their own sense of guidance.

I do see websites that show pictures of unclad, buff men and women, and first off, I always question their authenticity. But I also don't find them compelling, and instead, a little sad. I understand that you aren't slavishly devoted to excess weight loss, but a lot of people are! Looking at those pictures only makes it worse!

 

[Spondive]

Are you visionofstrength talking about pure casein supplement and pure fructose and coconut oil every hour or 2?

 

[visionofstrength]

I think haidut uses a casein powder. I've used nonfat milk and cottage cheese for the casein, and fructose powder or honey. I mix the coconut oil 50/50 with MCT oil.