Help with methionine restricting diet for cancer

[Philomath]

I almost missed this post from @Mauritio about vitamin E Succinate. I actually have some and I might add it to my rotation.

"Very interesting study that shows Vitamin E succinate to decrease hepatocellular carcinoma by 77% ! It was actually caused/increased by vitamin E acetate .
I included the whole results section from the abstract ,because every point actually deserves it's own discussion .

Hepatocellular carcinomas are promoted by tocopheryl acetate but eliminated by tocopheryl succinate - ScienceDirect

 

[Mauritio]

I almost missed this post from @Mauritio about vitamin E Succinate. I actually have some and I might add it to my rotation.

"Very interesting study that shows Vitamin E succinate to decrease hepatocellular carcinoma by 77% ! It was actually caused/increased by vitamin E acetate .
I included the whole results section from the abstract ,because every point actually deserves it's own discussion .

Hepatocellular carcinomas are promoted by tocopheryl acetate but eliminated by tocopheryl succinate - ScienceDirect

Just for clarification.

Ray does not recommend succinate anymore.
At some point in the last years he changed opinions.

I did send him this very study and asked him why only succinate was effective and he said something along the lines of 'succinate helps with glucuronidation in the liver' .

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Here is a good response I got from Ray Peat for you Philomath….

Rinse & rePeat:

“Do you think 40 to 50 grams of protein is too much protein having cancer? Is gelatin, nonfat milk and potato good sources of protein to eat with cancer?”

RAY PEAT:
“If the protein is limited to those, and your other calories are from carbohydrates (not fats), that amound should be safe.”

 

[Philomath]

Here is a good response I got from Ray Peat for you Philomath….

Rinse & rePeat:

“Do you think 40 to 50 grams of protein is too much protein having cancer? Is gelatin, nonfat milk and potato good sources of protein to eat with cancer?”

RAY PEAT:
“If the protein is limited to those, and your other calories are from carbohydrates (not fats), that amound should be safe.”

Thank you @Rinse & rePeat !!!

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Thank you @Rinse & rePeat !!!

I am happy to be sure about your diet :)

 

[TheCodez]

I have a mass just below my maxillary sinus. It pushes into the roof of my mouth a little and has moved some of my teeth a little. I've refused biopsy so I don't know it's composition. In 2017 it kept me in 24/7 pain. I now know the pain is a gift. This mass is very responsive to everything I do or eat. Get angry and the pain increases. Eat the wrong things and the pain increases. Get run down... Well you get the idea. Letting the pain be my guide, much like William Donald Kelley, I am now at the point that it is generally quite tolerable. I say all this to say that the three most impactful things I've found are beef tallow, baking soda (I eat 5 tsp daily), and calcium (4 grams daily).

 

[Blossom]

​

We’ll I don’t really want to take extra BCAA’s, it was suggested by @haidut as a means to lower methionine
Finally, in one of my older posts on the forum I talked about how higher intake of BCAA lowered absorption of methionine by 35%.
Thread 'Methionine Depletion'
Methionine Depletion

That said, I believe you and @Rinse & rePeat are probably right about severely limiting protein in general.
This article posted by @aliml recommends lysine restriction above all the other AA’s, but it seems lowering intake in general is best. Interestingly, they recommend maize a a form of protein

Summary​

Now, we can systematically answer the four questions raised at the beginning. First, AA restrictions could be a common and effective metabolic intervention for cancer since the AA metabolisms could use up to 58% of the total ATP for protein synthesis and RNA/DNA synthesis (Fig. 1b). Second, leucine is the most heavily used AA in human proteome; serine ranks the second; tryptophan is the least used and available EAA. Third, lysine is a particularly important EAA as discussed above, which restriction the proliferation of cancer cells might be most vulnerable and sensitive to. Fourth, it is recommended that the most practical dietary strategy for cancer intervention is using normal maize as an intermittent staple food for days, weeks or even months for lysine restriction, and starchy foods, vegetables and fruit serving as complementary foods to meet daily micronutrient needs and for a rich and varied diet.
Thread 'Intermittent dietary lysine restriction with normal maize, might have the value and potential for cancer prevention or therapy'
Intermittent dietary lysine restriction with normal maize, might have the value and potential for cancer prevention or therapy

Speaking of maize have you tried something like this? It’s low in protein and fat. I just stumbled upon it yesterday.

Organic White Corn Posole - Los Chileros

Posole – or hominy – is made by removing the outer layer of corn kernels and then drying them. The posole is then soaked and cooked (traditionally with cubed pork) until tender and the kernels have “bloomed”.

www.loschileros.com

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

“The ratio of saturated fatty acids to polyunsaturated fatty acids is decreased in cancer. Omega-3 fats promote metastasis.” -Ray Peat

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

“When cancers are metastasizing, their phospholipids contain less stearic acid than the less malignant tumors (Bougnoux, et al., 1992), patients with advanced cancer had less stearic acid in their red blood cells (Persad, et al., 1990), and adding stearic acid to their food delayed the development of cancer in mice (Bennett, 1984). The degree of saturation of the body's fatty acids corresponds to resistance to several types of cancer that have been studied (Hawley and Gordon, 1976; Singh, et al., 1995).” -Ray Peat

 

[TheCodez]

“When cancers are metastasizing, their phospholipids contain less stearic acid than the less malignant tumors (Bougnoux, et al., 1992), patients with advanced cancer had less stearic acid in their red blood cells (Persad, et al., 1990), and adding stearic acid to their food delayed the development of cancer in mice (Bennett, 1984). The degree of saturation of the body's fatty acids corresponds to resistance to several types of cancer that have been studied (Hawley and Gordon, 1976; Singh, et al., 1995).” -Ray Peat

I have no trouble believing this. In the beginning tallow was the only thing (I'd found) that reduced my tumor pain. It helped so much that I ate more and more until that's all I was eating. In a few days, the pain from the mass was eliminated entirely, but then my kidneys began to hurt and I ended up spending 5 days in the hospital with acute kidney failure. I now believe all that tallow triggered such a rapid tumor breakdown that I developed tumor lysis syndrome. That was a couple years ago. I've since found a sustainable level of tallow intake.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

I have no trouble believing this. In the beginning tallow was the only thing (I'd found) that reduced my tumor pain. It helped so much that I ate more and more until that's all I was eating. In a few days, the pain from the mass was eliminated entirely, but then my kidneys began to hurt and I ended up spending 5 days in the hospital with acute kidney failure. I now believe all that tallow triggered such a rapid tumor breakdown that I developed tumor lysis syndrome. That was a couple years ago. I've since found a sustainable level of tallow intake.

Wow! All that tallow was the perfect example of too much of a good thing! How were you using all that tallow?

 

[TheCodez]

Wow! All that tallow was the perfect example of too much of a good thing! How were you using all that tallow?

I simply warmed it to liquid and drank it.

Now days I make what looks like sausage balls, but in reality they're a blend of whole wheat, tallow or fatty hamburger, milk, calcium, salt, baking soda, potassium tartrate, and beef gelatin. This comprises 90% of my diet.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

I simply warmed it to liquid and drank it.

Now days I make what looks like sausage balls, but in reality they're a blend of whole wheat, tallow or fatty hamburger, milk, calcium, salt, baking soda, potassium tartrate, and beef gelatin. This comprises 90% of my diet.

Oh man I thought that taking a spoonful of coconut oil was hard, tallow sounds worse!

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

“When Albert Schweitzer operated his clinic in tropical Africa, he said it was many years before he saw any cases of cancer, and he believed that the appearance of cancer was caused by the change to the European type of diet. In the l920s, German researchers showed that mice on a fat-free diet were practically free of cancer. Since then, many studies have demonstrated a very close association between consumption of unsaturated oils and the incidence of cancer.” Ray Peat

 

[Philomath]

I am happy to be sure about your diet :)

I need a nutrition coach! I’ve been trying this by myself for 8 years - and haven't cracked the code yet?. Clearly I need help!

 

[Philomath]

I have a mass just below my maxillary sinus. It pushes into the roof of my mouth a little and has moved some of my teeth a little. I've refused biopsy so I don't know it's composition. In 2017 it kept me in 24/7 pain. I now know the pain is a gift. This mass is very responsive to everything I do or eat. Get angry and the pain increases. Eat the wrong things and the pain increases. Get run down... Well you get the idea. Letting the pain be my guide, much like William Donald Kelley, I am now at the point that it is generally quite tolerable. I say all this to say that the three most impactful things I've found are beef tallow, baking soda (I eat 5 tsp daily), and calcium (4 grams daily).

What made you try tallow? Was it from Dr. Peat, or did you just happen on it? Do you get pressured by doctors or your family to get the mass biopsied??

 

[Philomath]

Speaking of maize have you tried something like this? It’s low in protein and fat. I just stumbled upon it yesterday.

Organic White Corn Posole - Los Chileros

Posole – or hominy – is made by removing the outer layer of corn kernels and then drying them. The posole is then soaked and cooked (traditionally with cubed pork) until tender and the kernels have “bloomed”.

www.loschileros.com

I’ve never even heard of it before - I bet it would be great in chili though! @Rinse & rePeat, you’re the resident chef… any thoughts on usage??

 

[Philomath]

“When Albert Schweitzer operated his clinic in tropical Africa, he said it was many years before he saw any cases of cancer, and he believed that the appearance of cancer was caused by the change to the European type of diet. In the l920s, German researchers showed that mice on a fat-free diet were practically free of cancer. Since then, many studies have demonstrated a very close association between consumption of unsaturated oils and the incidence of cancer.” Ray Peat

So I can see keeping a high ratio of SFA to pufa for maintain good metabolism and to ward off cancer. But eating tablespoons of fat seems to be in direct opposition to what Dr Peat just said (keep protein and fat low, with the bulk of calories coming from carbs. Am I wrong?

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

So I can see keeping a high ratio of SFA to pufa for maintain good metabolism and to ward off cancer. But eating tablespoons of fat seems to be in direct opposition to what Dr Peat just said (keep protein and fat low, with the bulk of calories coming from carbs. Am I wrong?

Exactly, like Ray Peat said keep your diet very low-fat.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

I’ve never even heard of it before - I bet it would be great in chili though! @Rinse & rePeat, you’re the resident chef… any thoughts on usage??

I would have to think on that. It would be good in chili, but keeping beef out of your diet and most fats, chili may have to wait until you get to a safe place.