Hi from Mandy

[Mandy BoBandy]

Hi,

I'm a 40-something female who wants to lose weight. Lots of it. Other than a bit of eczema, I have no other health complaints.

And so the other day as I was soaking in an epsom salts bath I got to thinking that this basketball-sized abdomen is just not me. My arms, legs, fingers, feet are all relatively slender. My brain is nutrition-focused. So where the heck did this mid-section monstrosity come from? I think it has something to do with starch and PUFA accumulated over many years of processed food and low-carb oblivion. And so as I write this note I am desperately trying to ignore the deafening cries emanating from my intestines: "Get some Fritos! Have some chips! Just a few PUFA-soaked salty crunchy starchy things won't hurt!" Do they make salt licks for humans?

Nice to be here.

Mandy

 

[marikay]

Hi Mandy. I'd start by letting myself get a lot of salt. But skip the starchy PUFA's (all PUFA's) if you possibly can. Salt makes a huge difference for someone trying to lose weight (especially bloat). And salt will help you sleep. And sleep will help you get rid of the midsection fat.

 

[Mandy BoBandy]

Thanks, marikay. I will keep up with the salt and do my darndest to avoid starch, PUFA, and that darned tasty starchy PUFAs especially.

 

[tara]

Mandy BoBandy

Chronically high cortisol may be a contributer to thin limbs and round belly - adaptations to help survive periods of famine. If you've had long stints of low carbs and/or low calories, that might be a contributor.
If you haven't already, you could measure your temperature and resting pulse for a few days to help give an indication of how general metabolism is running.

I second avoiding PUFAs.
If you've been trying to do llow carbs, its not surprising you have such cravings. Potato chips home-baked in a little coconut oil with generous salt may help fill that spot?
I find soup a good carrier for salt, too - gelatinous stock and well cooked veges.
Do orange juice and milk agree with you? If so, they both have some useful sugars and other nutrients.

If you haven't yet read/heard many of Peat's articles and interviews, I'd recommend them. There's at least one interview specifically related to weight (fat) loss.

 

[Mandy BoBandy]

Thank you, Tara. I know when I was low-carbing my pulse was around 55-60 and temperature about 96.8 - 97 F. Not sure about recent numbers but I will start checking. I think I come from a long line of ancestors who were great at surviving famine.

Yes, OJ and milk agree with me. I just feel I can't over-rely on liquids because what goes in must come out.

I will seek out the weight loss interview...is it a KMUD one?

 

[tara]

post 117709 I know when I was low-carbing my pulse was around 55-60 and temperature about 96.8 - 97 F. Not sure about recent numbers but I will start checking. I think I come from a long line of ancestors who were great at surviving famine.

If your metabolism is low, then restricting calories in order to lose weight risks lowering it further, which seems like a no win spiral to me. May be worth focussing on ways to improve metabolism, rather than specifically on weight-loss. But some of us have gained weight focussing on metabolism - personally I think it's a worthwhile trade off if it works, but not everyone would make that choice.
Normal calories for an adult woman seem to be somewhere around 2500 (more for a young woman still growing). Maintaining weight at much less than this seems to me to be an indicator of low metabolism (possibly an adaptive one).
You could check out cronometer or similar to see if there are any obvious gaps in micronutrients. Peat recommends more calcium than phosphorus, lowish iron unless one is deficient, minimising PUFAs, but the others may provide a rough guide to average minimal needs (ignore its calorie recommendations - they are usually too low for healthy metabolism).

post 117709 Yes, OJ and milk agree with me. I just feel I can't over-rely on liquids because what goes in must come out.

Yeah, drink to thirst and not enough to be peeing clear and frequent. Good that you can drink juice and milk - may be preferable to water if you are having to limit fluids. Seems to be common with lowish metabolism.

post 117709 I will seek out the weight loss interview...is it a KMUD one?

viewtopic.php?f=73&t=5434

 

[Mandy BoBandy]

Thanks very much on all, Tara!

 

[brandonk]

post 117787

post 117709 I know when I was low-carbing my pulse was around 55-60 and temperature about 96.8 - 97 F. Not sure about recent numbers but I will start checking. I think I come from a long line of ancestors who were great at surviving famine.

If your metabolism is low, then restricting calories in order to lose weight risks lowering it further, which seems like a no win spiral to me. May be worth focussing on ways to improve metabolism, rather than specifically on weight-loss. But some of us have gained weight focussing on metabolism - personally I think it's a worthwhile trade off if it works, but not everyone would make that choice.
Normal calories for an adult woman seem to be somewhere around 2500 (more for a young woman still growing). Maintaining weight at much less than this seems to me to be an indicator of low metabolism (possibly an adaptive one).
You could check out cronometer or similar to see if there are any obvious gaps in micronutrients. Peat recommends more calcium than phosphorus, lowish iron unless one is deficient, minimising PUFAs, but the others may provide a rough guide to average minimal needs (ignore its calorie recommendations - they are usually too low for healthy metabolism).

post 117709 Yes, OJ and milk agree with me. I just feel I can't over-rely on liquids because what goes in must come out.

Yeah, drink to thirst and not enough to be peeing clear and frequent. Good that you can drink juice and milk - may be preferable to water if you are having to limit fluids. Seems to be common with lowish metabolism.

post 117709 I will seek out the weight loss interview...is it a KMUD one?

viewtopic.php?f=73&t=5434

I would second all that tara and marikay say. The one curious thing I might add is Ray Peat's comment that at his suggestion, his "fat friend" (meant I'm sure in the nicest possible way) ate 5 ounces (10 tablespoons) of coconut oil per day (refined, Tropical Traditions) and soon was no longer fat. Elsewhere, Ray Peat says that he himself lost about 15 pounds (from about 185 to 170) by eating 1.5 ounces (three tablespoons) of coconut oil a day.

I think Mary Newport, MD, has developed some recipes for using coconut oil here:
www.coconutketones.com/dietguidelines.doc

FWIW, I use some of Dr. Newport's recipes and they seem quite practical and even tasty to me (though I don't use her recipes that require starch).

 

[Mandy BoBandy]

Hmm, okay. I had backed off coconut oil recently because I thought if one ups sugar it is necessary to simultaneously reduce fat. I have a little in my carrot salad and that is it.

 

[brandonk]

Coconut oil has specific fatty acids that are mostly saturated, and mostly medium chain in length, so it seems to Ray Peat (or at least to me) to be quite different from other fats.

I'm not sure about upping sugar? I think there are posts here that opine it's OK to drink lots of soda, but those are "Non Peat" AFAIK, and seem to be made by people (haidut, other guys) who are young and thin, or exercise quite a bit. Too much sugar could in theory make you fatter, if you have an impaired insulin response or lack potassium (and in many other situations).

Speaking only for myself, I am utterly sedentary, and I estimate I've lost about 25 pounds mostly around the waist (40 inch to 31 inch) since starting coconut oil and no starch this past October. I do drink orange juice (a quart or more) and if the juice is not fresh-squeezed, I may often add fructose powder because the taste seems too sour and unsatisfying to me without it, but otherwise rarely have sugar (sucrose) or soda.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Good to know brandonk. I'm in my 50s and I've gained about 10 pounds since starting Peating and I don't want to gain anymore. Maybe I'm eating too much sugar, how could I tell that?

 

[brandonk]

Let me please reiterate what tara said:

May be worth focussing on ways to improve metabolism, rather than specifically on weight-loss. But some of us have gained weight focussing on metabolism - personally I think it's a worthwhile trade off if it works, but not everyone would make that choice.

Just to add to that, if I can, I think not enough sugar is way worse than too much. If you are craving sugar, then you are not getting enough.

But for me, I guess I have enough juice, fructose, and coconut oil, that I just don't crave sugar, starch or even alchohol anymore.

 

[Mandy BoBandy]

It seems like such a fine line between having too much or too little of anything. If I were to go a little more easy on the sugar and to increase coconut oil, would it be key to ensure that the coconut oil is ingested away from the ingesting of sugar, what with the Randle Cycle and all?

 

[milk_lover]

Good luck Mandy and welcome!

Coconut oil seems to be very good for weight loss. I know when I didn't eat it as much, my weight crept up. Starch can make some people retain water and Ray Peat says there is nothing wrong with starch except they may make people gain weight. So maybe reduce starch, up your simple sugars instead, and eat coconut oil away from sugar?

 

[brandonk]

post 118658 It seems like such a fine line between having too much or too little of anything. If I were to go a little more easy on the sugar and to increase coconut oil, would it be key to ensure that the coconut oil is ingested away from the ingesting of sugar, what with the Randle Cycle and all?

Yes, I'd agree with ml above, and would note that ketones in coconut oil actually improve the so-called Randle cycle (it's not actually a cycle) by greatly increasing the output of ATP and improving the associated redox state. So no worries about taking coconut oil with fruit juice. (To the extent that others seem to have posted here to the contrary, it's just a simple misunderstanding.) Ray Peat has written in one of his books (Nutrition for Women) that ketones in coconut oil are all that we would expect from an ideal energy source.

 

[Mandy BoBandy]

Thank you, milk_lover and bradonk. I can certainly add more coconut oil to my routine, including to the carrot salad, for starters. And here I have been limiting it lately, swinging the pendulum back over to sugar and away from saturated fats after avoiding sugar for so long.

The drift I'm getting is that PUFA is Enemy #1, and for people in weight-loss mode, starch avoidance helps.

It's a challenge trying to keep it simple in the face of so many variables. It seems like we simultaneously know so much and so little about what is really going on.

 

[Brian]

post 118594 Coconut oil has specific fatty acids that are mostly saturated, and mostly medium chain in length, so it seems to Ray Peat (or at least to me) to be quite different from other fats.

I'm not sure about upping sugar? I think there are posts here that opine it's OK to drink lots of soda, but those are "Non Peat" AFAIK, and seem to be made by people (haidut, other guys) who are young and thin, or exercise quite a bit. Too much sugar could in theory make you fatter, if you have an impaired insulin response or lack potassium (and in many other situations).

Speaking only for myself, I am utterly sedentary, and I estimate I've lost about 25 pounds mostly around the waist (40 inch to 31 inch) since starting coconut oil and no starch this past October. I do drink orange juice (a quart or more) and if the juice is not fresh-squeezed, I may often add fructose powder because the taste seems too sour and unsatisfying to me without it, but otherwise rarely have sugar (sucrose) or soda.

Interesting approach. The hardest part of recovering from low metabolism seems to be getting enough calorie density without too much fat disrupting glucose, but maybe coconut oil is an exception. How much coconut oil do you typically eat per day? Maybe a period of high coconut oil would be useful to those who have very high endotoxin.

 

[brandonk]

From what I can see it may be a bit of a misunderstanding of Randle's work (at least in certain posts on this forum) to say that all fat blocks glucose. I think Ray Peat explains how metabolism of the different kinds of fat works in the recent transcription at:
https://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/view ... 11#p118811

(Thanks to the transcribers!!)

Ray Peat says a number of times in that interview that it's really only unsaturated fat that's damaging to metabolism, while saturated fat is really quite good for the metabolism. He is asked to summarize at the end, and puts it this way:

Maybe we have time for you to explain the Randle hypothesis proposed 30 years ago, and that science wants to ignore now ?

RP: Some people call it the Randle cycle, but there is no cycle involved; it's just a competition. When you raise your free fatty acids, you inhibit the ability to oxidize glucose. Stress increases the free fatty acids. Oxidizing glucose is what you need to overcome the stress. And so, it's sort of a counterproductive reaction. But the reason it’s counterproductive is that our systems are designed not to eat PUFA. And it's the PUFA which very systematically - it's just an amazing black-and-white almost difference- the way the PUFA turn on the very stress hormones that interfere with the energy, making it the body need more stress hormones, blocking the energy. So that if we eat more [PUFA], we are turning on the very things that cause the problem.

HD: Why does the body want to do that?

RP: The body is designed, apparently from how completely systematic it is, to respond to saturated fat. Saturated fats block the stress reaction. So the properly functioning body would be logical: the stress reaction would provide energy in the absence of food, would provide the saturated fats from the storage, and at the same time it would inhibit the stress hormones and allow the cycle to be broken.

But to your question, I try to get at least a third of my calories from saturated fat in hydrogenated coconut oil and the fully saturated medium chain fractions of coconut oil, and a little butter. For me, this is at least 1,000 of my 3,000 calories a day. But really, whenever I feel hungry or low in energy I always go for the saturated fat, and so sometimes it could be more than a third (but not less).

I've also drunk a lot of strong coffee and taken aspirin and B3, as well as T3 with Progest-E.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

post 117675 I'm a 40-something female who wants to lose weight. Lots of it.

Hi Mandy. I think the biggest mistake people make when getting into "Peat" in regards to body fat loss is they consume too much dairy fat in the form of cheese, butter, ice cream, and any milk/yogurt above skim. Here are some Peat quotes on low-fat milk:

"I’ve mentioned at times I’ve averaged over the years probably a gallon of milk a day but that’s always been 1% milk because even at 2 quarts of milk, a person doesn’t want to have whole milk at 3 or 4% fat." - RP

Josh Rubin then says: "What’s interesting is when you say those things, I don’t think you realize the repercussions. You have all these people walking around trying to drink gallons of milk but they’re drinking whole milk and their like “Why am I gaining so much weight…(Peat and Josh laughing) listen here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7204&p=89863#p89863

"For people who aren't very active, low fat milk and cheese are better, because the extra fat calories aren't needed." - RP

"The fats in meat and cheese can be minimized by choosing low fat types, and skimmed or 1% milk can be used." - RP

"but the first thing should be to make sure her calcium to phosphorus ratio is good, by having two quarts of low fat milk per day, or the equivalent in low fat cheese, with no grains, legumes, nuts, or muscle meats, and with some well cooked greens regularly." - RP

"For people who don't do hard physical labor, low-fat milk is appropriate." - RP

“I have heard from several people that they think I recommend drinking whole milk, which I don't, because the amount of fat in whole milk is very likely to be fattening when a person is using it to get the needed protein and calcium. When a person wants to lose excess fat, limiting the diet to low fat milk, eggs, orange juice, and a daily carrot or two, will provide the essential nutrients without excess calories.” - RP

 

[tara]

post 118671 Thank you, milk_lover and bradonk. I can certainly add more coconut oil to my routine, including to the carrot salad, for starters. And here I have been limiting it lately, swinging the pendulum back over to sugar and away from saturated fats after avoiding sugar for so long.

I don't know what will suit you best, but I think Peat has recommended about a tsp of coconut at a meal, as long as there is significant stored PUFA in the system (most of us).

post 118671 The drift I'm getting is that PUFA is Enemy #1, and for people in weight-loss mode, starch avoidance helps.

The Randle cycle does apply to saturated fats as ell as PUFAs, but PUFAs do a whole lot more damage. If you haven't read Peta''s articles on fats, I'd recommend them. most of us here see it this way.
Starch avoidance seems to be helpful for some people, but htere are also a nuber who eat starch regularly and seem to do well with that too - probably depends on your system, including gut flora. Personally, I seem to do better if I eat a little starch every day (potatoes seem to agree with me).

post 118671 It's a challenge trying to keep it simple in the face of so many variables. It seems like we simultaneously know so much and so little about what is really going on.

Yes, we are complex systems. :)
I doubt there's a way around trying various tactics and watching how your body responds.