Katharina Dalton: The Dietary "musts" For Improving Progesterone (Hint: No Low Carb, No Starvation)

[Bluebell]

After many back and forths with the breakfast subject, it turned out to be the same for me. The day has a much better "prognosis" :) the earlier I wake up and the sooner I eat a balanced meal . Yay for such a simple intervention!

I'm trying to wake up earlier too. It feels like waking at an earlier hour by the clock means a better day regardless of sleep, strangely enough. The few times I've dragged myself out of bed really early even if tired, I've had a brighter day.

It quite surprised me, how much healthier it feels to eat as soon as I come downstairs. I have never been good in the morning. I think I was running on stress hormones from the moment of waking, and not eating breakfast until later just prolonged that.

 

[InChristAlone]

Yeah too bad it has gotten easier for me to sleep in til at least 8! When my cortisol is higher I can hop out of bed at 6 if I needed to. But getting up is essential for people who have issues with hormones.

 

[Xisca]

2) Many women have trouble managing blood sugar after a high fruit meal since fruit is more rapidly absorbed than starch. Now, it could be argued that in the context of a balanced meal this possible spike should not be a problem. But starch has a tendency to be more "slow-release" so maybe Katharina Dalton was playing it safe there? (she was all about maintaining excellent blood sugar regulation and excellent sugar availability to cells at all times).

My guess is that in England those times when she designed this diet, fruits were not available year round. They have peaches that crunch like apples!!!! I remember this when I was there as a teen!!!!! Nonot much sugar....

Then no, if you follow peat, he says starch is quicly digested, and there is no fructosr in starch.

I do have Access to good fruits, and I do not have toeat that much, and I have better result tan with starch!

I have more cravings with starch, because of the lack of fiber I guess.... But I make now my own juice with oranges and guavas, and noproblem.

I had one day without eough food, and I crashed imidiately regarding hot flushes.... And hard to get back....

 

[Xisca]

I'm trying to wake up earlier too. It feels like waking at an earlier hour by the clock means a better day regardless of sleep, strangely enough. The few times I've dragged myself out of bed really early even if tired, I've had a brighter day.

It quite surprised me, how much healthier it feels to eat as soon as I come downstairs. I have never been good in the morning. I think I was running on stress hormones from the moment of waking, and not eating breakfast until later just prolonged that.

Same here! I am hungry at 6am or before! And feel better and sleep earlierand all better!

 

[SQu]

I do have Access to good fruits, and I do not have toeat that much, and I have better result tan with starch!

Same here, good ripe fruit pretty much year round. I still feel that it doesn't always replenish my energy. I can however do without starch unless I am trying to lower fat for weight loss purposes. Then I feel very stressed, do lots to try and lower the stress but with limited success. If i have starch I can comfortably lower fat - no stress. So far starch is not affecting me negatively in the ways it used to ie blood sugar drops. Presumably it's the three hourly intervals that help amongst other things like potato's potassium and the salt I add to it. (Although of course fruit has plenty of potassium too.) And maybe years of rebuilding health. And the other minerals. Etc!

 

[PakPik]

I still think that the low calorie density of fruit plays a big role in not many people being able to replace starch with it... As I've mentioned before, you'd need several baskets of fruit daily in order to meet the carb calorie requirements (I've checked my fruits with cronometer.com). And even if you had so much fruit available, you could eat lots and lots of fruit and still not be eating enough carbs, and since they get stomach full due to so much water content, they may lead to caloric deficit. Not good! None of that happens with starch.
I love fruit, but I soon realized that I needed to include starch as well due to those very reasons (of course, when I included starch my digestion could handle it. My diet didn't contain starches for a long time. Some people get irritated with it).

 

[Xisca]

@SQu, you seem to have the same flower around as where I live! I am in the Canary and you?
I do not lower fats at all, only PUFAs. I use coconut oil with fruits for example. coco is supposed to help weight loss!
I must still be careful with starches, and I eat then with loads of butter, so that it protects.
For this, each one has to try! @PakPik, that is also what you say, and we are all making a good summary of the options we have to chose among....
Not easy to be between what gut can handle and what is needed for calories.
I also use a lot of meat and eggs of course.
For starches, bananas and sweet potatoes from my garden.... I will buy potatoes when they will be over!
Ho, with fruits think about eating salt!

 

[Xisca]

The basic goal is to avoid hypoglycemia anyway, however you match this!

I am not sure I can do this well with no fats, as I produce lactic acid too quick. Bam, with fats, the body cannot turn to anaerobic! Only with sugar can it!

With sugars, though I stick to it and still try, I have ups and down more thann with a high fat diet.... I a still not sure about peat's views for everyone including me! I can put on weight, then I lose is very fast, I am a good fat burner, so I really never have put on weight ever in my life.

I seem to not be able to stay aerobic with sugars/starches, and then what?
When I tried to increase starches, I started to put on weight and to feel crazy about eating all the time!

 

[PakPik]

Good points @Xisca
One definitely has to take into account what a person can handle. And then to balance that with the caloric and nutrient requirements.
Easy to digest fruit seems to be ideal for people with very poor mitochondrial function and / or digestion. I could only ingest fruit and honey at first, starch was sickening.
Regarding being a fat burner, I can relate. I was underweight all my life and never put on weight, it seems I was on fat burning mode all the time. I then discovered that faulty mitochondrial function makes a person unable to correctly use sugar, so this person will tend to become a fat burner and probably a lactic acid producer.
There are many possible causes of mitochondrial dysfunction. I've been working on those mitochondrial/cell issues for a few years now, and nowadays my diet is high carb low fat and I handle the carbs really good, I have the best metabolism I've ever had. And I put on healthy weight and I am not underweight anymore -though I still would like to put on a few more pounds-.
So, I suspect you may have mitochondrial respiration blocks or issues if you have so much trouble oxidizing sugar correctly and are an obligate fat burner.
Small intestine infections / irritation can also be a reason for inability to deal well with starches.

 

[Peata]

My stomach can't take most foods first thing in the morning, but I keep 1/2 banana on the nightstand and eat it when I get up. Sometimes I drink milk with it too. It's not a lot, but at least I've got something in my system and my stomach can handle it. But usually I'm able to eat something else within the hour, though it also has to be something easy to eat (like a small pasta meal, pudding, etc.)

 

[amethyst]

My stomach can't take most foods first thing in the morning, but I keep 1/2 banana on the nightstand and eat it when I get up. Sometimes I drink milk with it too. It's not a lot, but at least I've got something in my system and my stomach can handle it. But usually I'm able to eat something else within the hour, though it also has to be something easy to eat (like a small pasta meal, pudding, etc.)

Same with me. I do better in the morning starting with fruit and going from there.

Good points @Xisca
One definitely has to take into account what a person can handle. And then to balance that with the caloric and nutrient requirements.
Easy to digest fruit seems to be ideal for people with very poor mitochondrial function and / or digestion. I could only ingest fruit and honey at first, starch was sickening.
Regarding being a fat burner, I can relate. I was underweight all my life and never put on weight, it seems I was on fat burning mode all the time. I then discovered that faulty mitochondrial function makes a person unable to correctly use sugar, so this person will tend to become a fat burner and probably a lactic acid producer.
There are many possible causes of mitochondrial dysfunction. I've been working on those mitochondrial/cell issues for a few years now, and nowadays my diet is high carb low fat and I handle the carbs really good, I have the best metabolism I've ever had. And I put on healthy weight and I am not underweight anymore -though I still would like to put on a few more pounds-.
So, I suspect you may have mitochondrial respiration blocks or issues if you have so much trouble oxidizing sugar correctly and are an obligate fat burner.
Small intestine infections / irritation can also be a reason for inability to deal well with starches.

You sound similar to me. I am drinking more (2%) milk-chocolate milk (never was a big milk drinker) :), than I ever did, but feel good. Plus some good fat. And cheese. In regards to carbs, I seem to do best in this order:
1st) Fruit
2nd) then rice
3rd) then potatoes or sweet potatoes. If I eat too many starchy potato type meals, I don't feel as well.
4th) I don't seem to handle pasta well. It tends to bloat me.

I used to have SIBO but *cured* it (I believe) with organic sulfur crystals, which I am not presently taking. But it appeared to work. Once my SIBO was cured, I could/can handle starches better.

 

[SQu]

I then discovered that faulty mitochondrial function makes a person unable to correctly use sugar, so this person will tend to become a fat burner and probably a lactic acid producer.

I am not sure I can do this well with no fats, as I produce lactic acid too quick

Me too, but I do have weight to lose. I think I made myself this way with low carb. Still go into lactic acid mode at the drop of a hat/when I miss a snack/ later in the day.

So, I suspect you may have mitochondrial respiration blocks or issues if you have so much trouble oxidizing sugar correctly and are an obligate fat burner.

This is what I suspect too. Fructose issues in particular. It's got better with many things like b1, minerals. Afternoons remain toughest.

@SQu, you seem to have the same flower around as where I live! I am in the Canary and you?

It's strelitzia regina, from the Eastern Cape in South Africa. It's also known as the crane flower here in South Africa and the bird of paradise in some other places. You might also know a few others from the same part of the world. Like plumbago, Cape honeysuckle, agapanthus, arum lily (known as calla lily I think) geranium, pelargonium, protea, clivias, all popular garden plants. I read that Canary has very special island species?

 

[SQu]

still think that the low calorie density of fruit plays a big role in not many people being able to replace starch with it... As I've mentioned before, you'd need several baskets of fruit daily in order to meet the carb calorie requirements

Very plausible. I've noticed that when avoiding starch and going low fat, when I am unsatisfied but I cannot face any more oj or other fruit/sweet foods I may suddenly feel a desire for excessively concentrated sweetness. Like nougat, though that has some fat. Or stewed dry fruit. With fat free yoghurt and honey. My point being I don't think it's fat I'm craving here. I think it's sugar (in spite of all the sugar!)

 

[Xisca]

Good points @Xisca
One definitely has to take into account what a person can handle. And then to balance that with the caloric and nutrient requirements.
Easy to digest fruit seems to be ideal for people with very poor mitochondrial function and / or digestion. I could only ingest fruit and honey at first, starch was sickening.
Regarding being a fat burner, I can relate. I was underweight all my life and never put on weight, it seems I was on fat burning mode all the time. I then discovered that faulty mitochondrial function makes a person unable to correctly use sugar, so this person will tend to become a fat burner and probably a lactic acid producer.
There are many possible causes of mitochondrial dysfunction. I've been working on those mitochondrial/cell issues for a few years now, and nowadays my diet is high carb low fat and I handle the carbs really good, I have the best metabolism I've ever had. And I put on healthy weight and I am not underweight anymore -though I still would like to put on a few more pounds-.
So, I suspect you may have mitochondrial respiration blocks or issues if you have so much trouble oxidizing sugar correctly and are an obligate fat burner.
Small intestine infections / irritation can also be a reason for inability to deal well with starches.

That's me too! 1m65 for 50 kgs, not bad but every one thinks I am more fit than I really am...
How to handle carbs better?
I am about to go back to a high fat diet, as it was so good for me...
I think we can burn all, and want to solve the acid lactic issues.
Only sugars produce lactic acid, that is why I guess we do better with fats...
Of course I am with as much saturated fat as possible.
I have now problems with cheese, as it gives me sinusitis, but I am a big butter eater!
Very good with any fruit or guava or quince delicacies!

Any link to understand better the problem of why lactic acid or not with the same carb eating? I am like this since birth!
Even when Reading Peat I still miss the understanding of something.

 

[Xisca]

So, I suspect you may have mitochondrial respiration blocks or issues if you have so much trouble oxidizing sugar correctly and are an obligate fat burner.
Small intestine infections / irritation can also be a reason for inability to deal well with starches.

That is the main point I was refering to.
My guts are better but could be better, and dunno what more I can do....
And what are the causes of this blocking....
I turn toward detox now, heavy metal problema I have for sure, and solvents might be an issue produciing this problem.

 

[Xisca]

I have noticed that I can eat early in the morning only if very early, let's say 5.30am or 6. Then if I do not eat, I have to wait until 10am to feel fine !
I also tend to use fruit at this moment, though I need to take something hot as well, and eggs are fine as well.
A hot compote of apples and guavas do down well too!

About metabolism, I think I have found good clues with methylation, as I had an instant result by taking B12 in the form of methylcobalamine.

At the moment, taking Eprogest or not makes no difference.

 

[PakPik]

I think I made myself this way with low carb. Still go into lactic acid mode at the drop of a hat/when I miss a snack/ later in the day.

I have ups and down more thann with a high fat diet

High fat-low carb diet has been consistently studied and found to induce mitochondrial damage/cellular problems. And we can see a lot of people end up in this forum with all sorts of problems after high fat-low carb diets. It takes effort to try and reverse those issues.

Any link to understand better the problem of why lactic acid or not with the same carb eating? I am like this since birth!

If a person is like that since birth, I would think of at least 4 possibilities:
1- Inherited disease called "inborn errors of metabolism", which are rare genetic problems that make people unable to metabolize parts of foods. They mention the symptoms here: Inborn Errors of Metabolism Clinical Presentation: History, Physical, Causes
Description is here: Inborn Errors of Metabolism: Background, Pathophysiology, Epidemiology
2- Toxic exposure in utero or very early in life (heavy metals, pesticides, etc...)
3- Nutrient deficiency related to ability to metabolize carbs
4- Hypothyroidsm

At the moment, taking Eprogest or not makes no difference.

As per K. Dalton explanations, progesterone does very little or nothing at all if the cell can't use sugar correctly or if there's not enough available due to low carb consumption/empty glycogen stores.

Very plausible. I've noticed that when avoiding starch and going low fat, when I am unsatisfied but I cannot face any more oj or other fruit/sweet foods I may suddenly feel a desire for excessively concentrated sweetness. Like nougat, though that has some fat. Or stewed dry fruit. With fat free yoghurt and honey. My point being I don't think it's fat I'm craving here. I think it's sugar (in spite of all the sugar!)

Oh, I think I understand what you mean regarding not being able to keep eating loads of fruit while still remaining unsatisfied/undernourished. During my zero starch days I used to crave chocolate and caramel, a "drier" and "concentrated" source of carbs.

 

[Bluebell]

Did Katharina Dalton give any guidelines on the minimum size of the starch snacks?

Right now I have a small portion of well cooked starch at breakfast/lunch/dinner, but sometimes my snacks are fruit/milk. I'm thinking about keeping a piece of starch from my main meals to use as part of my snack, but just wondering how much.

I do feel like my blood sugar stays stable longer (I don't feel hungry so soon) when I include starch.

It's still feeling good to be eating immediately on waking. What kind of good effects are any of you getting? Yesterday I had a "progesteroney" reaction to coffee which was quite amazing and not how I'd usually respond to caffeine - it was a very relaxed, at ease, almost nap-like feeling. Not sure if it was due to the regular starch or not, but it was good.

Thanks for bringing these ideas to our attention PakPik.

 

[PakPik]

It's still feeling good to be eating immediately on waking. What kind of good effects are any of you getting?

Yes, the day definitely goes better the earlier I wake up and the sooner I eat my high carb starchy, hearty meal. I wish I could measure the biochemical parameters that would explain the good effect, but instinctively I would describe it as if my body was lighter and more relaxed, blood and oxygen having an easier time reaching and acting on cells (as if circulation, oxygenation, energization worked with less effort). On the contrary, if I don't do that, I feel heavier and a wired-but-tired-edgy kind of energy all day long (low quality energy, stressed out cells, struggling circulation, etc...).

I believe that this effect has mostly, if not everything to do with circadian rhythm. Our bodies are meant to be function in two phases: a feeding phase and a fasting phase, comprising a total time of 24 hrs. The cycling between food consumption and fasting is the main factor setting the "Peripheral circadian clocks". Our bodies are also meant to function according to exposure to bright light and exposure to darkness, and the cycling between light entering the retina and darkness is the main timing cue that sets the 24-h clock called "Central circadian clock".

So, from the above we see there are two circadian clocks, i.e Peripheral and Central. The reason I mention this is we are meant to have the two kinds of clocks synchronized, so that the feeding phase matches the bright light retinal exposure phase, and the fasting phase matches the darkness phase. A mismatch, in other words having the circadian clocks in different time zones, is quite unhealthy since it disrupts physiological functions such as glucose homeostasis, behavior, endocrine function, sleep, energy expenditure, etc... Further info on circadian clocks here: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2212877814000684

Keeping the above in mind, to answer question "why would waking up early and getting a high carb, hearty meal soon afterwards would make so much sense for optimal function of the body?" I'm going to quote some good conclusions from the blog posts Meal timing and peripheral circadian clocks and Entraining Central and Peripheral Circadian Rhythms:

-"the major finding of this part was: 1) bigger meals entrained peripheral circadian clocks better than smaller ones; and 2) they became more entrained to the time of the biggest meal."

-"regardless of peripheral circadian clock timing, the central clock is entrained by light in the morning… ergo, bigger meals should be timed earlier in the day."

-"Remember: regardless of the peripheral circadian clock timing, the central clock is entrained by LIGHT in the morning… ergo, a longer fasting period should occur prior to breakfast in the morning" [Note: this is Vs. the fasting time between any two consecutive meals/snacks of the feeding window]

-"Combine the findings from experiments 1 & 2, and you get: a big breakfast, early dinner, and the longest fasting interval between dinner & breakfast. All of these findings are incredibly consistent with avoiding Afternoon Diabetes." [Note: K. Dalton doesn't recommend such a long fast for women. However, the recommendation to have an early dinner kind of confirms my suspicion that the 1hr-before-bedtime snack should *ideally* be as light as possible so as to not convey unwanted signals to the circadian clocks -of course this may not be possible for people with bad nightly hypoglycemia issues-]

-"Starting the central pacemarker with bright light in the morning but skimping on the peripheral pacemaker by skipping breakfast represents a circadian mismatch:Afternoon Diabetes? Central and peripheral circadian rhythms work together."

-"... to synchronize all clocks: breakfast & bright light in the morning, and avoidance of bright light at night."

-"“Desynchronization between the central and peripheral clocks by, for instance, altered timing of food intake, can lead to uncoupling of peripheral clocks from the central pacemaker and is, in humans, related to the development of metabolic disorders, including obesity and type 2 diabetes. ” (Oosterman et al., 2014)."
​

Hence there is a strong case for waking up early, having a high-carb, hearty breakfast soon afterwards and preventing daytime starvation since: this would synchronize the circadian clocks, which is the way they are supposed to work (provided we get exposure to bright light during the day and avoid exposure to bright light at night). Contrarily, not doing that will desynchronize them.

Did Katharina Dalton give any guidelines on the minimum size of the starch snacks?

This is the only indication on size I've read in her book: "Divide the day's starchy food so that you eat small starchy snacks every three hours during the waking hours and within one hour of waking and retiring to bed."

Yesterday I had a "progesteroney" reaction to coffee which was quite amazing and not how I'd usually respond to caffeine - it was a very relaxed, at ease, almost nap-like feeling. Not sure if it was due to the regular starch or not, but it was good.

When I was very unhealthy, coffee made me sick. No positives at all for me, even a tiny bit was always detrimental. When my health substantially improved coffee suddenly proved to be positive to me. Now it has given me even more improved health, well-being, and the "progesteroney" effects as you describe it, though I am sure it goes beyond any progesterone/steroid effect it may have since it has literally dozens of different protective substances -I am particularly interested in caffeic acid and chlorogenic acid effects- :)

I'm glad you've experienced positive changes @Bluebell

 

[tara]

I'm quite interested to try this. I'm thinking small amounts of well-cooked porridge or potato, or some rice pudding with a little honey. I seem to do well on these starches anyway and splitting it up into more frequent feedings would be quite easy. Anyone else doing this, and what are your starchy snacks?

I'm lately making sure to have well cooked starches at least 3x/day, always breakfast and lunch, usually dinner, and often one or two more times in the day.

As I've mentioned before, you'd need several baskets of fruit daily in order to meet the carb calorie requirements (I've checked my fruits with cronometer.com).

It is hard. For a while I was drinking 2l+ juice a day (and no water etc), so that provided at least half my carb needs for a while. But I don't think it really suited me. Better energy and satiation with some well-cooked starch.

So, from the above we see there are two circadian clocks, i.e Peripheral and Central. The reason I mention this is we are meant to have the two kinds of clocks synchronized, so that the feeding phase matches the bright light retinal exposure phase, and the fasting phase matches the darkness phase. A mismatch, in other words having the circadian clocks in different time zones, is quite unhealthy since it disrupts physiological functions such as glucose homeostasis, behavior, endocrine function, sleep, energy expenditure, etc...

I'm suspecting this is important for me, but I really struggle with keeping it consistent. If I don't manage to get eat enough early in the day, or if I am awake too late for some reason, and feel as though I need more food to get to sleep, it seems to throw me off. If I don't eat enough the previous day, I wake up too early. One or other of those things happens fairly often, sometimes maybe in my control, sometimes not.