Kempner Rice Diet

[ecstatichamster]

An excellent video memoir of a Harvard trained MD who knew Kempner and documents Kempner’s work.


View: https://youtu.be/8Xkr8Zh-s1s?si=yXQ6ylzLYmiXlCrr


Remember, Kempner’s diet cured terminally ill patients with extremely high blood pressure, end stage kidney disease, heart disease. Pills and crutches thrown away, people recovered instead of dying. And huge weight loss that was primarily water weight shed, taking the pressure off the heart.

Diet is rice and fruit.

The doctor says this diet is like penicillin for someone at death’s door who recovers completely. And it takes only 2 - 3 weeks for people to feel so much better.

Diet is very low sodium but doesn’t seem to be a problem. Low protein isn’t a problem either.

This is similar to the potato diet that is faddish in some people today.

Don’t you wish we had physicians like Dr. Neelon and Dr. Kempner today?

 

[Blossom]

Thank you for sharing this sir. I’ve heard of him but never looked into it much. I incidentally stopped adding salt to my food back in 2022 and it counter-intuitively helped improve my low blood pressure.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Thank you for sharing this sir. I’ve heard of him but never looked into it much. I incidentally stopped adding salt to my food back in 2022 and it counter-intuitively helped improve my low blood pressure.

That’s super interesting. This is a terrific interview of Dr. Neelon who was an expert on it and worked with Dr. Kempner.


View: https://youtu.be/vJDQo90_hGM?si=dXmAsFhluIvQozD0

 

[Blossom]

Thank you, I’ll give it a listen while I’m working around the house.

 

[Morten]

Thank you for sharing this sir. I’ve heard of him but never looked into it much. I incidentally stopped adding salt to my food back in 2022 and it counter-intuitively helped improve my low blood pressure.

Do you think to much salt can wreck sleep?

 

[Blossom]

@Morten, it seems possible to me that it potentially wrecks many things under the radar in certain people. It’s a controversial topic and I’m not comfortable saying what others should do but I know for me stopping added sodium and only getting what naturally comes in unprocessed foods greatly improved my overall inflammation.
I checked cronometer and I’m averaging in the 800mg range over the last week and I’ve had 256mg today for example so not as low as people on the rice diet. I’m not doing the rice diet (although I eat rice) but there’s naturally occurring sodium in fresh plain meat. It does seem more in line with our what our average intakes probably were before highly processed foods came on the scene. I felt like there was a slight adjustment phase when I stopped using salt but nothing bad happened. Many people get very upset about this subject. :)

 

[Blossom]

That was really good @ecstatichamster. Thank you for sharing the videos. A couple of similarities stood out to me on what I’ve been doing for the last several years like walking/activity (although I don’t usually get an hour in every single day) and no added salt/low sodium. I also like Kempner’s weight charts. I think what’s been done in recent years with weight charts and bmi often backfires. I was happy to see that I’m normal per his old school guidelines.

 

[Blossom]

Another thing I’ve been doing that they talked about and I think is important is measuring and tracking. Someone from an online class I took (DDF) shared this image and I think it applies to about any area of life where we want to succeed. Of course people resist this all the time but it works.

 

[Clyde]

My understanding is that Kempner added fruit juice and table sugar to cut the protein load.

100cal protein per 2400cal total. Protein is 4% of calories

He admitted to whipping some of his patients in a deposition and I read somewhere he maintained a harem of former patients near his home. Very interesting character

https://www.drmcdougall.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/kempner-compositionopti.jpeg

 

[Morten]

@Morten, it seems possible to me that it potentially wrecks many things under the radar in certain people. It’s a controversial topic and I’m not comfortable saying what others should do but I know for me stopping added sodium and only getting what naturally comes in unprocessed foods greatly improved my overall inflammation.
I checked cronometer and I’m averaging in the 800mg range over the last week and I’ve had 256mg today for example so not as low as people on the rice diet. I’m not doing the rice diet (although I eat rice) but there’s naturally occurring sodium in fresh plain meat. It does seem more in line with our what our average intakes probably were before highly processed foods came on the scene. I felt like there was a slight adjustment phase when I stopped using salt but nothing bad happened. Many people get very upset about this subject. :)
View attachment 62349View attachment 62350

Thanks for sharing

 

[Nebula]

Diet is very low sodium but doesn’t seem to be a problem.

Lately I’ve been wondering if maybe it’s superior for potassium to be the dominant electrolyte. Peat mentioned all the electrolytes can substitute for each other to some degree, but I wonder if potassium being the highest is the most physiological. It would make sense because potassium is dominant in the primate fruit based diet. They aren’t consuming huge amounts of sodium.

Somehow I took the salt is not bad sentiment and way over consumed salt for years. Lately I’ve been supplementing potassium and keeping salt conservative and I notice a lot of things in my body seem to be working better. Water retention is very low too.

Although I think it’s mostly only people with compromised thyroid/metabolisms that benefit the most from being mindful about potassium/sodium balance as their system may not be able to regulate it correctly.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Lately I’ve been wondering if maybe it’s superior for potassium to be the dominant electrolyte. Peat mentioned all the electrolytes can substitute for each other to some degree, but I wonder if potassium being the highest is the most physiological. It would make sense because potassium is dominant in the primate fruit based diet. They aren’t consuming huge amounts of sodium.

Somehow I took the salt is not bad sentiment and way over consumed salt for years. Lately I’ve been supplementing potassium and keeping salt conservative and I notice a lot of things in my body seem to be working better. Water retention is very low too.

Although I think it’s mostly only people with compromised thyroid/metabolisms that benefit the most from being mindful about potassium/sodium balance as their system may not be able to regulate it correctly.

Dr. Neelon says that 500mg is probably good for most people as that is what we are accustomed to getting over the eons, and it avoids some issues that a few people get, that are life threatening, at 100mg per day.

 

[Nebula]

Dr. Neelon says that 500mg is probably good for most people as that is what we are accustomed to getting over the eons, and it avoids some issues that a few people get, that are life threatening, at 100mg per day.

500mg potassium? RDA is 4000mg. I wonder if the ratio of potassium to sodium is more important than total amounts as they oppose each other.

 

[Blossom]

Dr. Neelon says that 500mg is probably good for most people as that is what we are accustomed to getting over the eons, and it avoids some issues that a few people get, that are life threatening, at 100mg per day.

I agree. The Yanomami apparently get about 100mg/day but they are highly adapted to those low levels. I don’t see any reason to push it that low especially unsupervised. Kempner’s patients were very ill and watched closely. Here’s my average intake from last week as an example from a whole unprocessed omnivore foods diet not using any salt. 500mg is pretty easy for me to reach without even thinking about.

 

[ecstatichamster]

500mg potassium? RDA is 4000mg. I wonder if the ratio of potassium to sodium is more important than total amounts as they oppose each other.

500mg of salt.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I agree. The Yanomami apparently get about 100mg/day but they are highly adapted to those low levels. I don’t see any reason to push it that low especially unsupervised. Kempner’s patients were very ill and watched closely. Here’s my average intake from last week as an example from a whole unprocessed omnivore foods diet not using any salt. 500mg is pretty easy for me to reach without even thinking about.View attachment 62360

I would have thought that was insane, but I'm growing to appreciate it. I am not sure how much of Kempner's cure was from the low sodium, or the high carbs, or the low endotoxins in that diet. What do you think?

 

[charlie]

I would have thought that was insane, but I'm growing to appreciate it. I am not sure how much of Kempner's cure was from the low sodium, or the high carbs, or the low endotoxins in that diet. What do you think?

What fruits were suggested in the diet? Could it have been from being a low "vitamin A" diet?

 

[Blossom]

I would have thought that was insane, but I'm growing to appreciate it. I am not sure how much of Kempner's cure was from the low sodium, or the high carbs, or the low endotoxins in that diet. What do you think?

I thought it was insane myself but I’ve been forced out of necessity to change many of my ‘sacred cow’ health views over the last 7 years. I’m tending towards thinking the sodium amount is a very big factor regardless of the carbs (although I’m sure they help as well as low endotoxin and other toxins) just because when I initially made the leap to stop salting my food I was eating muscle meat carnivore and still had great improvements.

I found this write up interesting:

“Salt was only discovered by humans about 5000 years ago when it was found to have the magical property of preserving food.1 It therefore became of great importance in the development of settled communities and civilizations.49 Now, however, with the development of the deep freeze and refrigerator, salt is no longer required for preservation. Unfortunately, with the development of processed foods, salt has once again become of great commercial importance, not only to the salt manufacturers and extractors, but also to the food and soft drinks industries. Many of the cheap processed foods are only palatable with the addition of large amounts of salt, the cheapest ingredient. When people are exposed to foods which contain high concentrations of salt the salt taste receptors are suppressed. The individual therefore becomes habituated to this type of food, which increases the demand for highly salted processed foods. Salt is also very important to the processed meat industry, for a higher salt concentration increases the water binding capacity. In this way the weight of the product can be raised by 10 to 20% at no cost to the producer. Total salt intake is an important stimulus to thirst and therefore fluid consumption.50 Any reduction in the population's salt intake will have a large effect on soft drinks, mineral water and beer consumption.50

It is not surprising, therefore, that commercial interests which represent the salt manufacturers and extractors, e.g. the Salt Institute in the US and the soft drinks industry, together with many sections of the food processing industry, have co-operated in perpetuating the idea that salt is not involved in hypertension. They have also suggested that dietary salt only effects a small number of people and that therefore it is not worthwhile for the normotensive population to reduce its salt intake. They also perpetuate the myth that reducing salt intake can be dangerous.”

Commentary: Salt, blood pressure and health

The Yanomamo Indians still lead a life very similar to the last million or so years of our evolution,1 and like primitive man eat a diet that is very low i

academic.oup.com

 

[ecstatichamster]

I thought it was insane myself but I’ve been forced out of necessity to change many of my ‘sacred cow’ health views over the last 7 years. I’m tending towards thinking the sodium amount is a very big factor regardless of the carbs (although I’m sure they help as well as low endotoxin and other toxins) just because when I initially made the leap to stop salting my food I was eating muscle meat carnivore and still had great improvements.

I found this write up interesting:

“Salt was only discovered by humans about 5000 years ago when it was found to have the magical property of preserving food.1 It therefore became of great importance in the development of settled communities and civilizations.49 Now, however, with the development of the deep freeze and refrigerator, salt is no longer required for preservation. Unfortunately, with the development of processed foods, salt has once again become of great commercial importance, not only to the salt manufacturers and extractors, but also to the food and soft drinks industries. Many of the cheap processed foods are only palatable with the addition of large amounts of salt, the cheapest ingredient. When people are exposed to foods which contain high concentrations of salt the salt taste receptors are suppressed. The individual therefore becomes habituated to this type of food, which increases the demand for highly salted processed foods. Salt is also very important to the processed meat industry, for a higher salt concentration increases the water binding capacity. In this way the weight of the product can be raised by 10 to 20% at no cost to the producer. Total salt intake is an important stimulus to thirst and therefore fluid consumption.50 Any reduction in the population's salt intake will have a large effect on soft drinks, mineral water and beer consumption.50

It is not surprising, therefore, that commercial interests which represent the salt manufacturers and extractors, e.g. the Salt Institute in the US and the soft drinks industry, together with many sections of the food processing industry, have co-operated in perpetuating the idea that salt is not involved in hypertension. They have also suggested that dietary salt only effects a small number of people and that therefore it is not worthwhile for the normotensive population to reduce its salt intake. They also perpetuate the myth that reducing salt intake can be dangerous.”

Commentary: Salt, blood pressure and health

The Yanomamo Indians still lead a life very similar to the last million or so years of our evolution,1 and like primitive man eat a diet that is very low i

academic.oup.com

this is very opposite to my existing beliefs about salt, but perhaps I need to change these beliefs. Dr. Peat pointed out that low salt raises aldosterone, which isn't great, but there is probably much more to the story.

 

[Blossom]

It’s definitely mind bending but I’ve been doing it long enough now that I know it’s the best choice for me personally. It’s pretty crazy when you really start looking into it in depth. I’m not vegan by any stretch (nor do I plan to be) but apparently Dr. Michael Gregor is another person that doesn’t advocate for any added salt/sodium to the diet either fwiw.

Here’s a couple interesting comments I found in a salt thread on the rapamycin news site:

“I’ve tried low sodium diet enough that I’m pretty confident I have the following benefits, it happens every time I switch:

+decreased anxiety, sense of calm
+improved energy
+improved cognition, my eyes move faster, improved reactions
+slight sense of extra wellbeing
+feel grounded, as if my spatial perception slightly improve
+decrease thirst
+decrease aftertaste of food
+faster hydration

Probably has to do a lot with hydration.
No negatives except objective markers like increased HR etc at certain times, but I don’t care, if my brain works much better.

Another day, another time testing a no added sodium + adequate hydration protocol. I feel about 15-20% stronger, smarter, faster. I must resist the McDonald’s food! I don’t understand what the mechanism is nor what it is.”

“I have been reading a bit from the user wild_vegan on reddit 1. He seems to have been on a low sodium diet for many years. He targets the WHO minimum of 500 mg but he does so by eating vegetables, if he goes below it it doesn’t matter to him because of the Yanomani eating 100 mg a day. If he doesn’t have access to vegetables or he exercises a lot he adds some salt, but he says he notices if he is deficient as he has extreme salt and sour cravings or his sweat doesn’t taste salt (like one time with intense exercise in the mountains). Acids like lemon juice and vinegar depolarize the sodium taste buds on tongue so they’re a good replacement as well, salt taste can’t be replaced but one gets used to lower quantities. Lots of sodium lost in sweat is a post-hoc fallacy.

It’s not an RDA, it’s a Daily Reference Intake. The American Heart Association recommends ideally less than 1500 or 1200 for people with problems. The WHO recommends 500 as a “safe lower bound” that covers people who exercise. The Yanomami Indians in Brazil consume around 250 mg with no ill effects, and it’s hot down there, they sweat. True physiological need was estimated to be around 125. There is a monograph on sodium by the WHO health organization if you want to look it up. It can’t possibly be true that we need to eat mineral salt as long as we consume adequate vegetation. It’s not true for any other mineral, unless there’s a dietary deficiency.

I’ve gone very long periods of time. I’ve trained for a 50k on a no-salt diet. “Years” doesn’t matter because excess sodium will be dumped much sooner than that. I don’t know if you’re familiar with Kempner and his studies of sodium restriction in hypertensives before there was any anti-hypertensive medication (the “rice diet”) but it took maybe 3 months for people to really bottom out their BPs. That was probably without exercise. Sweating will drop your BP faster, but your body will adjust the salinity of your sweat so it’s a myth that people who sweat a lot need a lot of salt–they are making a post-hoc fallacy.

Anyway, the signs and symptoms of a true sodium deficiency are intense cravings for salt and sour foods (they depolarize the sodium taste buds on your tongue). Your water throughput (i.e. thirst & urination) could also get weird in the context of exercise. The only time this has happened to me was when I was weaning off lisinopril, and when I was training for that 50k. My sweat had no discernible salty taste at all, I didn’t get thirsty for a long time during a run, and lemon juice was like manna from heaven. In both cases I just increased my intake.

Recently, I’m actually having a bit of a problem. I’m intermittent fasting and on a lower-carb diet, which are known to have a natriuretic effect (insulin prevents sodium loss by independently acting in the kidneys, according to a recent theory. That’s why all those keto people need to eat shitloads of salt to feel OK.) So if you’re fasting you might want to supplement. But I’m a little worried I won’t be able to get down to no salt due to long COVID. Lately, I’ve felt a little brain fogged and prone to migraines when not adding a salt packet (200 mgs) to each meal. It could just be an adjustment period, though. I have some other problems that seem to be the result of COVID, although they are slowly going away.

Anyway, if you’re healthy and don’t have SIADHS or POTS (which… is salt really the answer?), and aren’t on an extreme exercise routine, there aren’t going to be any negative effects. I’d recommend reducing your intake somewhat slowly. If you’re reducing for BP, keep in mind the above, that it can take a couple of months to see the biggest reduction. Usually the best effects have really started for me when the salinity of my sweat was noticeably reduced. When that happens, you will also be able to have a “cheat” every once in a while, like a restaurant meal, without seriously spiking your BP, because your body will have space to shunt the sodium into for excretion.

The only time I’ve ever had an issue reducing sodium is now, after COVID. It could be my imagination and a third variable, though, like fasting or stress. There’s no serious danger of hyponatremia, which is usually caused by excess fluid consumption, especially in the context of exercise + SIADHS. Just drink when you’re thirsty and you’ll be fine.

Running or hiking up to 10-11 miles say 3 times a week was just fine, the only time it really became an issue was with high-mileage days. In that case you will want to allow some processed food like unsalted pretzels (assuming they contain sodium), dried apples, clif bars or what not. Those will usually contain enough sodium to supplement your intake. Keep in mind that sodium & water balance is hormonally controlled, so it’s all relative. If you take in 500 mg a day from food, you don’t suddenly need 2000 today just because you’re going for a run. You’ll find that the salinity of your sweat is an excellent proxy for sodium balance. A couple of days of eating veggies with no exercise will make my sweat salty again even if I’m just getting 500 mg. YMMV. Do it gradually and you’ll be fine.

Trying to decrease water intake deliberately doesn’t make any sense to me since the body will just ramp up urine production if it’s too much. Only problem is when the body can’t keep up with that because of drugs, kidney problems, or simply drinking abnormal amounts of water in too short of a period.”