Notes Toward An "Optimal Peat Diet"

[Rayser]

Dear narouz, I understand your concept I just think you might try to start at the wrong side.
Usually it's exactly the "staring point" which will be different for everyone. That's why I asked those questions.
If you give somebody directions, you should know where they are first.

As I said even sugar and coconut oil and milk can be very problematic if you advise them for people with a low metabolic rate, after a stomach surgery, on certain medication, if they are "lactose intolerant" or have a low blood sugar.

I don't think the title "optimal diet" is wrong. But it will be something very individual, at least at the very beginning.
It might confuse and frustrate newbies (like on this forum at the moment LoveBlood and Thomas) very much to do everything from the book (is that correct English?) and experience more problems than they had before.
That's the reason for many PMs I received during the last days.

It's also the reason Ray Peat always asks for your current diet when you first contact him and for your health history.
Maybe that's why there is still no diet after all this time and energy (though I think it's a great achievement to talk about all the recommendations as you do in this and other threads. It makes people think about why they eat what they eat).

Maybe you could just call it the optimal Peat diet for advanced students?

 

[narouz]

Dear narouz, I understand your concept I just think you might try to start at the wrong side.
Usually it's exactly the "staring point" which will be different for everyone. That's why I asked those questions.
If you give somebody directions, you should know where they are first.

As I said even sugar and coconut oil and milk can be very problematic if you advise them for people with a low metabolic rate, after a stomach surgery, on certain medication, if they are "lactose intolerant" or have a low blood sugar.

I don't think the title "optimal diet" is wrong. But it will be something very individual, at least at the very beginning.
It might confuse and frustrate newbies (like on this forum at the moment LoveBlood and Thomas) very much to do everything from the book (is that correct English?) and experience more problems than they had before.
That's the reason for many PMs I received during the last days.

It's also the reason Ray Peat always asks for your current diet when you first contact him and for your health history.
Maybe that's why there is still no diet after all this time and energy (though I think it's a great achievement to talk about all the recommendations as you do in this and other threads. It makes people think about why they eat what they eat).

Maybe you could just call it the optimal Peat diet for advanced students?

It would be helpful to know more about the Peat diets of our posters.
But in the absence of such a thorough database
my speculation would be
that there is a great deal more commonality
than divergence.
Maybe I should add here that that speculation
would apply to those Peaters who believe
there is such a thing as a Peat diet,
who read/listen to Peat pretty deeply,
and try to follow his recommendations fairly closely.

On the specific elements you metion as needing caution signs,
coconut oil, lactose, sugar,
I think that would be very easy to note on the chart or charts I envision.
I've always felt the chart should be accompanied by some concise explanatory notes.
I certainly don't see an accurate-to-Peat Peat diet as a dangerous diet.
Those who have a lactose problem would presumably exercise appropriate caution.
Coconut oil usually only causes problems when the unrefined kinds are used.

Of course it would be a wonderful world
if everyone could call Dr. Peat and get him to personally tailor their own individual Peat diet.
I'm not sure Dr. Peat would be up to it or welcome that, but...

...in any case, you could think of what I envision here
as simply articulating--making formal and explicit--
what most well-versed Peatians here do informally and mentally:
reading and listening to Peat,
and distilling his generalities about the nature, methods, and ratios
of a good Peat diet.
Then, of course, each individual tries to adapt those general outlines
to a diet that best suits them.

And, as I say, even after those individual adjustments,
I would still tend to think
there would be a very strong thread of commonality
as opposed to wild variability.
I don't think Dr. Peat would make the generalizations he so obviously does
if he felt they were of no use
or if he felt he might be endangering someone.

He means for them to be starting points.
We would mean for them to be starting points.
And we would state that.

 

[Rayser]

Narouz: It would be helpful to know more about the Peat diets of our posters.
But in the absence of such a thorough database

*** Don't think you need a database. Most of us post about their diet sooner or later.

my speculation would be
that there is a great deal more commonality
than divergence.

*** Don't think that's true. Our ages differ, our sex, our history, our current situation ...

Maybe I should add here that that speculation
would apply to those Peaters who believe
there is such a thing as a Peat diet,
who read/listen to Peat pretty deeply,
and try to follow his recommendations fairly closely.

*** Those are the only people capable of phrasing the "Peat diet". But I think they will all say that the diet varies and depends on your life style.

On the specific elements you metion as needing caution signs,
coconut oil, lactose, sugar,
I think that would be very easy to note on the chart or charts I envision.
I've always felt the chart should be accompanied by some concise explanatory notes.

*** I think that would make the "chart" into short Ray Peat articles. Only less complex and not as beautifully written. By the way I mentioned examples. The same could be said for salt, carrots, potatoes, beef, fish, cheese, orange juice ...

I certainly don't see an accurate-to-Peat Peat diet as a dangerous diet.

*** Have you been to the threads "Meet and Greet" and "Looking for Help" lately? I'd say there are people who started a pretty good version of a Peat diet and have serious problems. It's not a problem if you read the articles which always give very complex information. It is a problem if you read notes.

Those who have a lactose problem would presumably exercise appropriate caution.

*** Yes. They'd probably not use milk and cheese. Where is the Peat in that? Instead they would probably have no trouble starting to use a table spoon a day for a while and slowly increasing the dosage, eating carrot salad, starting with salt and adding thyroid supplement and aspirin later, lower histamines and so on.

Coconut oil usually only causes problems when the unrefined kinds are used.

*** Coconut oil alone can activate T4. If there is a lot of T4 stored in the thyroid tissue, a thyroid storm can be the result. More than a table spoon of coconut oil a day will inevitably lead to weight gain if the metabolism is slow (which is very likely if you start a Peat diet.)

Of course it would be a wonderful world
if everyone could call Dr. Peat and get him to personally tailor their own individual Peat diet.
I'm not sure Dr. Peat would be up to it or welcome that, but...

*** First of all: He has done it so far. Secondly: I thought that's what this forum was for? The more experienced onces or the once with more contact to Ray Peat would pass on their knowledge and interpretative understanding to others? There will be enough time I suppose to help a few hundred people. Even a few thousand, I would imagine. Especially if after a while most of the problems are covered and can be found by searching the forum.

...in any case, you could think of what I envision here
as simply articulating--making formal and explicit--
what most well-versed Peatians here do informally and mentally:
reading and listening to Peat,
and distilling his generalities about the nature, methods, and ratios
of a good Peat diet.
Then, of course, each individual tries to adapt those general outlines
to a diet that best suits them.

*** I get that. I think it's a good idea to talk about everything Ray Peat says and writes. I just don't think it will be helpful to newbies. Why do you think Ray Peat - who must over the last more than 40 years have given dietary advise to millions of people - has never made a chart he simply sends to every newbie who e-mails him? Do you think he is so bored that he gives individual advise every time? (He does, I have seen proof of it.) Wouldn't it be the easiest thing for him?

And, as I say, even after those individual adjustments,
I would still tend to think
there would be a very strong thread of commonality
as opposed to wild variability.

*** After a while and no distinctive health problems (like the ones I mentioned in my questions) I partly agree. Though the few general suggestions (like the basic anti-aging-diet - please notice the "basic" here!) would for example be harmful to kids before puberty and sometimes even be less than helpful during puberty. The same goes - as I am finding out right now - for pregnant women. And it would still be a "chart" or "list" for advanced students who know the complex details and exceptions behind all the stuff mentioned there. I don't see any harm in "wild variability" -- I am sure my diet is not the same as yours. Some people hate lamb and will not eat liver if their life depends on it. Some people will never see a tropical fruit in their lives. Some will not be able to afford a CO2-bottle or have holidays in the mountains in spring. They'll find ways (or supplements) to make up for it. It's their lives, let them find the best ways for themselves gradually. I'm sorry, that's very personal and I don't mean to be insulting but maybe you are that frustrated with the diet because you tried to do everything at once? If you miss your peas and broccoli that much, set a date once a month and eat them. It's not optimal but if it makes you happy, it will be healthier than the constant feeling of missing out on something. If you realize that you have less energy after eating them - maybe your appetite for them will disappear because of the association. (I really don't want to insult you. I am fortunate enough that everything I love turns out to be healthy. I was the idiot who forced herself to eat salmon and have salads with corn oil and vegetables every day before though I hated it all.)

I don't think Dr. Peat would make the generalizations he so obviously does
if he felt they were of no use
or if he felt he might be endangering someone.

*** I'm sorry - generalizations? I notice very few. Like not PUFAs or lower estrogen. Usually Ray Peat seems to be defined by being very specific and not making much sense when taken out of context.

He means for them to be starting points.

*** I don't know about that. Everybody I know (including me) had their own very specific situation and starting point. Nobody I know started reading Ray Peat without having a health issue. None of them were helped with what I told them about my diet. All of them were helped (with very different suggestions) by Ray Peat. I notice that people here on the forum have very different problems. They get offered lots of advise - very different things, too and adequate for their specific situation.

We would mean for them to be starting points.
And we would state that.

*** Do as you please. I just think by repeating a forumla you will not help starters who will notice soon that it's impossible to do everything right from the very beginning and at once. Finding the right nutrition for you is a process which is just as much healing as the food itself. A process takes time. This way is supposed to be walked step by step, everybody at their own pace. Some need months to read one article by Ray Peat, others read it within hours. Some will have questions, some might find the answers on this forum, some will ask Ray Peat.

*** I just think if you present a newbie with a "chart" that states everything an optimal diet (for his or her age) should include, stating every exception and synergy and interaction there might be - they will not even try.
If I had a list of what I'll have to do on a day before I got up - I'd stay in bed.
But doing it one by one, it works every day.

*** What I don't get is your idea about being elitist without that "chart". I don't know about you but I never needed a secret handshake or a constantly changing password to access Ray Peat's work.
As far as I know every information by Ray Peat is available to everybody in the world. With the interviews even to those who cannot read. (With the exception of people who don't speak English but your chart would be English, too.)
I don't think anybody here doesn't "give a damn about the 99,9%" and doesn't want to help newbies. I just think it's obsolet to talk about providing a chart for people who don't know Ray Peat ... After all: What would they do on a Ray Peat forum?

 

[narouz]

On the specific elements you mention as needing caution signs,
coconut oil, lactose, sugar,
I think that would be very easy to note on the chart or charts I envision.
I've always felt the chart should be accompanied by some concise explanatory notes.

I think that would make the "chart" into short Ray Peat articles. Only less complex and not as beautifully written. By the way I mentioned examples. The same could be said for salt, carrots, potatoes, beef, fish, cheese, orange juice...

I am happy to find that we agree on the beauty of Peat's writing!
Not all agree.
Just recently, in fact, a poster said that
"I think he's right about a lot of things related to bodily functions but a terrible writer. He seriously needs an editor."

A chart or charts with explanatory notes will be vastly more condensed than Peat's oeuvre.
Of course!
And of course it will completely lack Peat's elegance and detail!
That is what happens with generalization.
Takeaway: in no way intended, promoted, envisioned as, or implied to be, a substitute.

I certainly don't see an accurate-to-Peat Peat diet as a dangerous diet.

Have you been to the threads "Meet and Greet" and "Looking for Help" lately? I'd say there are people who started a pretty good version of a Peat diet and have serious problems. It's not a problem if you read the articles which always give very complex information. It is a problem if you read notes.

I don't see why this needs to be reduced to an either/or proposition.
The ideas we give to individual Peatians is a cool thing.
I don't think we need to think of it as the only safe way to begin trying to understand a Peat diet.

Those who have a lactose problem would presumably exercise appropriate caution.

Yes. They'd probably not use milk and cheese. Where is the Peat in that? Instead they would probably have no trouble starting to use a table spoon a day for a while and slowly increasing the dosage, eating carrot salad, starting with salt and adding thyroid supplement and aspirin later, lower histamines and so on.

A tough fix to be sure: a Peatian without dairy!
But I don't think we should see this as a problem a diet chart would create.

Coconut oil usually only causes problems when the unrefined kinds are used.

Coconut oil alone can activate T4. If there is a lot of T4 stored in the thyroid tissue, a thyroid storm can be the result. More than a table spoon of coconut oil a day will inevitably lead to weight gain if the metabolism is slow (which is very likely if you start a Peat diet.

I confess I've not heard this coconut oil&thyroid storm thing.
Is it something Peat discusses?

Of course it would be a wonderful world
if everyone could call Dr. Peat and get him to personally tailor their own individual Peat diet.
I'm not sure Dr. Peat would be up to it or welcome that, but...

First of all: He has done it so far. Secondly: I thought that's what this forum was for?

Seems just a bit of a reach to state that Dr. Peat has helped everyone individually.
What percentage of Peatians have had a detailed personal consultation with him?
Or even a terse email exchange?

On the notion that the purpose of this forum is to give personal consultations to everyone:
I have to say I've never been under that impression, but...I could be wrong.
But even if Charlie surprised me by saying that was indeed our purpose here,
I don't see how creating a chart/s would stand in the way of such a purpose.

Again: not an either/or proposition, to me.

...in any case, you could think of what I envision here
as simply articulating--making formal and explicit--
what most well-versed Peatians here do informally and mentally:
reading and listening to Peat,
and distilling his generalities about the nature, methods, and ratios
of a good Peat diet.
Then, of course, each individual tries to adapt those general outlines
to a diet that best suits them.

I get that. I think it's a good idea to talk about everything Ray Peat says and writes. I just don't think it will be helpful to newbies. Why do you think Ray Peat - who must over the last more than 40 years have given dietary advise to millions of people - has never made a chart he simply sends to every newbie who e-mails him?

This is a very good question, and one I've thought about a lot.
I've also explored it very actively in conversations here on the forum, in multiple threads.
The short answer is: I don't know.
But at the same time I don't think it is obvious or self-evident
that he would like to prohibit his careful readers
from gleaning the general ideas from his work
and presenting them in a graphic summary,
especially if it was done with no commercial influence
and if subject to all of the many qualifications I repeated above.

I don't think Dr. Peat would make the generalizations he so obviously does
if he felt they were of no use
or if he felt he might be endangering someone.

I'm sorry - generalizations? I notice very few.

Again, just for starters:

Peat Generalizing about Diet without Specific, Individual Context

1. “There isn't anything wrong with a high carbohydrate diet, and even a high starch diet isn't necessarily incompatible with good health, but when better foods are available they should be used instead of starches.”-Ray Peat, “Glycemia, Starch, and Sugar in Context”

2. A daily intake of 100 grams of gelatin wouldn't seem unreasonable, and some people find that quantities in that range help to decrease fatigue. For a growing child, though, such a large amount of refined gelatin would tend to displace other important foods. The National Academy of Sciences recently reviewed the requirements for working adults (male and female soldiers, in particular), and suggested that 100 grams of balanced protein was needed for efficient work. For adults, a large part of that could be in the form of gelatin. –Ray Peat, “Gelatin, Stress, Longevity”

3. “I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption. In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements.”-Ray Peat, “Diabetes, Scleroderma, Oils and Hormones”

4. “It's better to take your protein during the day, sugar and fat in the evening. The powdered protein lacks most of the nutrients, so you probably need some fruit, eggs, and liver, for the other nutrients, including potassium and magnesium. .”-Peat from http://www.dannyroddy.com/main/2011/12/ ... tandi.html

5. “Milk, cheese, and fruits provide a very good balance of nutrients. Fruits provide a significant amount of protein. Plain sugar is o.k. when the other nutrients are adequate. Roots, shoots, and tubers are, next to the fruits, a good carbohydrate source; potatoes are a source of good protein. Meat as the main protein can provide too much phosphorus in relation to calcium."-Peat from http://www.dannyroddy.com/main/2011/12/ ... tandi.html

6. “Sugar helps the liver to make cholesterol, switching from starchy vegetables to sweet fruits will usually bring cholesterol levels up to normal. If the fat is mostly saturated, from milk, cheese, butter, beef, lamb or coconut oil, I think it's usually o.k. to get about 50% of the calories from fat, but since those natural fats typically contain around 2% polyunsaturated fats, I try to minimize my PUFA intake by having more fruit, and a little less fat, maybe 30 to 35%.”-Peat from http://www.dannyroddy.com/main/2011/12/ ... tandi.html

7. “People can do well on high or low fat or carbohydrate, but when the carbohydrate is very low, some of the protein will be wasted as fuel, replacing the missing glucose.”-Peat from http://www.dannyroddy.com/main/2011/12/ ... tandi.html

8. “A daily diet that includes two quarts of milk and a quart of orange juice provides enough fructose and other sugars for general resistance to stress, but larger amounts of fruit juice, honey, or other sugars can protect against increased stress, and can reverse some of the established degenerative conditions..”-Peat from http://www.dannyroddy.com/main/2011/12/ ... tandi.html

9. Muscle meats (including the muscles of poultry and fish) contain large amounts of the amino acids that suppress the thyroid, and shouldn't be the only source of protein. It's a good idea to have a quart of milk (about 32 grams of protein) every day, besides a variety of other high quality proteins, including cheeses, eggs, shellfish, and potatoes. -Peat from http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/ray-peat.html

10. "Per calorie, sugar is less fattening than starch, partly because it stimulates less insulin, and, when it's used with a good diet, because it increases the activity of thyroid hormone.."-Ray Peat from http://www.dannyroddy.com/main/2011/12/ ... tandi.html

11. "Starch and glucose efficiently stimulate insulin secretion, and that accelerates the disposition of glucose, activating its conversion to glycogen and fat, as well as its oxidation. Fructose inhibits the stimulation of insulin by glucose, so this means that eating ordinary sugar, sucrose (a disaccharide, consisting of glucose and fructose), in place of starch, will reduce the tendency to store fat."-Ray Peat, “Glycemia, Starch, and Sugar in Context”

12. “The starch-based diet, emphasizing grains, beans, nuts, and vegetables, has been promoted with a variety of justifications. When people are urged to reduce their fat and sugar consumption, they are told to eat more starch. Starch stimulates the appetite, promotes fat synthesis by stimulating insulin secretion, and sometimes increases the growth of bacteria that produce toxins..... Various studies have demonstrated that starch (composed of pure glucose) raises blood glucose more quickly than sucrose (half fructose, half glucose) does.”-Ray Peat, "Diabetes, Scleroderma, Oils and Hormones"
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/diabetes.shtml

13. "Protein deficiency creates an inflammatory state, and since stress causes tissue proteins to be destroyed and converted into sugars and fats, it's common to underestimate the amount of protein needed. One of the functions of sucrose in the diet is to reduce the production of cortisol, and so to spare protein."-From newsletter "Inflammation, Endotoxin, Estrogen, and Other Problems"

14. "Any carbohydrate...that is not sugar can potentially feed bacteria [in the intestines] that produce toxins and cause systemic stress."
-Dr. Ray Peat: Glycemia, Starch and SUGAR in Context!
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/eastwesthe ... in-context
(Go to approximately the 29 minute mark of the interview.)

Everybody I know (including me) had their own very specific situation and starting point. Nobody I know started reading Ray Peat without having a health issue. None of them were helped with what I told them about my diet. All of them were helped (with very different suggestions) by Ray Peat.

Again...I don't see why we should believe that the only way people can be helped
is through a personal consultation with Dr. Peat.

We would mean for them to be starting points.
And we would state that.

Do as you please. I just think by repeating a forumla you will not help starters who will notice soon that it's impossible to do everything right from the very beginning and at once. Finding the right nutrition for you is a process which is just as much healing as the food itself. A process takes time. This way is supposed to be walked step by step, everybody at their own pace. Some need months to read one article by Ray Peat, others read it within hours. Some will have questions, some might find the answers on this forum, some will ask Ray Peat.

I don't disagree with what you say about the initial difficulties of learning about a Peat diet.
I just don't see how a chart/s would add to or increase those difficulties.
Indeed, I think it might alleviate them.

I just think if you present a newbie with a "chart" that states everything an optimal diet (for his or her age) should include, stating every exception and synergy and interaction there might be - they will not even try.
If I had a list of what I'll have to do on a day before I got up - I'd stay in bed.
But doing it one by one, it works every day.

I just don't think a chart/s would create such stress.
You make it sound like a Peat diet is a terrifying thing!
You know I have my problems with it, but...it does not strike fear in my heart and plunge me into depression!

I don't think anybody here doesn't "give a damn about the 99,9%"

Honestly Rayser, I'm afraid they do indeed!
And in some number.
I'm not eager to go tracking all those quotes down for you,
but if you insist I will try to.

Some Peatians do say this and say it proudly.
It is not a good thing, IMO.

 

[Edward]

“Well the only foods I would suggest eliminating would be the grains and beans, and most of the nuts, and probably reducing most meats. Gelatin happens to be the part of the meat that doesn’t have so many of the disturbing acidic pro-inflammatory effects.” ~Ray Peat, March 16, 2012. Radio interview on Ask Your Herb Doctor.

There are two types of dietary recommendations Ray makes, the first is blanket statements, as in general recommendations that are suitable for the general population, and the second is contextual recommendations suitable for those that are suffering from health problems. Keep that in mind when your designing your dogma.

“There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after. Whoever can’t hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit it at all.” ~Nietzsche

 

[charlie]

“Well the only foods I would suggest eliminating would be the grains and beans, and most of the nuts, and probably reducing most meats. Gelatin happens to be the part of the meat that doesn’t have so many of the disturbing acidic pro-inflammatory effects.” ~Ray Peat, March 16, 2012. Radio interview on Ask Your Herb Doctor.

There are two types of dietary recommendations Ray makes, the first is blanket statements, as in general recommendations that are suitable for the general population, and the second is contextual recommendations suitable for those that are suffering from health problems. Keep that in mind when your designing your dogma.

“There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after. Whoever can’t hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit it at all.” ~Nietzsche

Concise, I love it!

 

[narouz]

“Well the only foods I would suggest eliminating would be the grains and beans, and most of the nuts, and probably reducing most meats. Gelatin happens to be the part of the meat that doesn’t have so many of the disturbing acidic pro-inflammatory effects.” ~Ray Peat, March 16, 2012. Radio interview on Ask Your Herb Doctor.

There are two types of dietary recommendations Ray makes, the first is blanket statements, as in general recommendations that are suitable for the general population, and the second is contextual recommendations suitable for those that are suffering from health problems. Keep that in mind when your designing your dogma.

“There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after. Whoever can’t hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit it at all.” ~Nietzsche

You like to call what I'm trying to do in this thread "dogma."
I think I'll just stick with how I've repeatedly described it, if you don't mind:
a tentative, non-authoritarian, flexible, not-one-size-fits-all, starting point, Peat-derived diet.

Oh my, that's so mean of you to drop intimidatingly intellectual quotes into your post.
While I try to stop shaking and compose myself,
may I ask (in a tremulous voice):

Since you grant that your pal "Ray" does in fact make
general dietary recommendations
which are "suitable for the general population"...

...I'm wondering why such general recommendations
shouldn't be rounded up, distilled, and articulated in relatively concise form--
especially if the appropriate qualifications are noted.

I'm wondering why those who want to do that
must be marked out as "terrible people"
(to respond to the apparent implication of your knee-shaking Nietzsche)
who are bound to "bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after."

 

[redhead19047]

Hi,

Just a few questions. How much salt should one use a day and does that make you retain fluid? When we talk about salt the kind you get in the supermarket is highly processed and not good. Does everyone use sea salt that has all the minerals in it? Regarding sugar - if I eat ice cream that has a lot of sugar the effect on me is that a little while later I get really sleepy. Once when I went on a yeast free diet, around 2 months in I had a very small cup of hagen daz and literally fell asleep about 1 - 2 hours later. So, I'm confused about the sugar thing.

 

[narouz]

Hi,

Just a few questions. How much salt should one use a day and does that make you retain fluid? When we talk about salt the kind you get in the supermarket is highly processed and not good. Does everyone use sea salt that has all the minerals in it? Regarding sugar - if I eat ice cream that has a lot of sugar the effect on me is that a little while later I get really sleepy. Once when I went on a yeast free diet, around 2 months in I had a very small cup of hagen daz and literally fell asleep about 1 - 2 hours later. So, I'm confused about the sugar thing.

redhead-
There is an interesting thread on salt running here:

http://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1438&p=15782&hilit=salt#p15782

Peat recommends the Pickling Salt you can find at most grocery stores.
I get the Morton brand.
Yes, it is processed and does have the minerals taken out I guess,
but that is why Peat likes it.
He says the fancy salts with different colors and mineral contents
can contain dangerous levels of some minerals/elements.

On the sugar and sleepiness thing:
Peat has said that some few people have so much unhealthy overgrowth of bacteria in their bowels
that when they eat sugar
such a significant amount of alcohol is made as a byproduct
that those people then feel kind of drunk.

Probably more likely is that you feel sleepy
because the sugar is helping you relax
by tamping down the stress hormones.
Peat has said that sugars are the best anti-stress foods.
The ice cream has a lot of good protein too.
You probably needed the sleep.

 

[Dutchie]

I'm still a bit confused as I read somewhere earlier on in this thread that massa harina,white rice,oats and potatoes are the most optimal form of starch....but there seemed to be quite some contrary talk about the frequency and also about root tubers and fruit veggies such as tomato,pumpkin etc.
So,what's the deal with it?

Are there people on here who frequently/daily eat white rice,(sweet)potato and/or other root tubers? I also wondered if Tapioca Pearls migth be a better substitute for making porridges than rice?though it is even higher in starch/carbs. As I cant do higher free fructose than glucose foods/fruits. And eating ripe banana/plantain everyday gets kinda boring too I also seem to notice that fruit,all the watery stuff,gives me such a hollow feeling that I really start to crave something substantial.

And would it be better digestion,metabolism and fatpreventingwise to pair a starch with a source of sugar?

 

[narouz]

Dutchie-
Yes, a bit of a murky area in PeatWorld.
In some statements Peat seems to rank "roots and tubers" as next best after fruits for carbs.
That would make sense for potatoes.
But not so much for sweet potatoes--because of the carotene and maybe the fiber.
I don't know about tapioca.
I do understand the "hollow" feeling.
To fill that hole I usually turn to potatoes or masa harina tortillas w/ cheese.

 

[jyb]

I'm still a bit confused as I read somewhere earlier on in this thread that massa harina,white rice,oats and potatoes are the most optimal form of starch....but there seemed to be quite some contrary talk about the frequency and also about root tubers and fruit veggies such as tomato,pumpkin etc.
So,what's the deal with it?

Are there people on here who frequently/daily eat white rice,(sweet)potato and/or other root tubers? I also wondered if Tapioca Pearls migth be a better substitute for making porridges than rice?though it is even higher in starch/carbs. As I cant do higher free fructose than glucose foods/fruits. And eating ripe banana/plantain everyday gets kinda boring too I also seem to notice that fruit,all the watery stuff,gives me such a hollow feeling that I really start to crave something substantial.

And would it be better digestion,metabolism and fatpreventingwise to pair a starch with a source of sugar?

If you tolerate starch then no reason to avoid, complementing the milk, juice etc. Watch your symptoms, pulse and temps as usual. But I think RP usually advises something really well cooked for better digestion. A well cooked potato (or a puree) makes its more digestible. For example if you cut the potato into fine slices, then boil them long enough, I think it'd be considered well cooked. I think sweet potato is high in beta carotene and I don't like the taste, so I never eat them. The "RP potato juice", obtained by juicing the potato with a centrifugal juicer, is quite tasty and removes a lot of the starch - see the RPPPS thread.

 

[pboy]

Adding fat to everything is beneficial, usually up to about 10-15g an hour is tolerable (about 1 tbsp.). Your whole body can run on glucose (glycogen stores) but 70% of it, all but your brain and red blood cells, can also run on fat and your body overall prefers to always have a steady supply of fat so your liver doesn't have to send glycogen to your whole body to fuel it. Your liver can then focus this glycogen on fueling itself, your brain, and red blood cells. When you have a good supply of glycogen but no fatty acids in your system, theres always a slight feeling of being undernourished or not fully satiated, because your liver is kinda saying "hey...we're pretty good right now, but if I have to keep powering your whole body I'm gonna run out of energy soon!" whereas when you have a good supply of glycogen AND fatty acids in your system, your liver is more like "thanks, now I can focus this energy on the more crucial tasks of metabolism and you(fat) can run the basic metabolism of the body" and your liver is only burning through the glycogen at about the 30% rate as opposed to if it had to fuel the whole body.

Another thing I think is important to say is that carbohydrates and protein are hygroscopic, where as fat isn't....meaning carbs and protein are like sponges and require basically a bubble of water around themselves or they'll attempt to pull water from around themselves to satisfy this state. Fat just floats on the water but doesn't pull at it at all. So when eating carbs and protein, attempting to have the right balance of water is necessary, but with fats you don't need to worry about water pretty much at all. Your body doesn't like having to hold more water than it has to, as this puts pressure on all vessels and organs (because of the sponge, hygroscopis effect) and weighs you down. So if you eat a lot of carbs in one sitting, expect to either have a dehydrating astringent, tugging of the gut feeling, or a feeling of pressure and weighing downness. Carbs and protein are best taken moderately, appropriately throughout the day, with a little water (consistency of milk basically, or a slightly thick soup). Then fuel yourself with a steady supply of fat pretty much all the time as you like. I personally do best with about 50-55% of my calories from fat

 

[Dutchie]

I think thats actually the problem,all these watery easy digestible foods give me a total hollow feeling,even taters are still watery,thats what makes fal/ into the trap of giving in to eating the wrong stuff bc its very dense,may have fiber etc.

 

[Dutchie]

Adding fat to everything is beneficial, usually up to about 10-15g an hour is tolerable (about 1 tbsp.). Your whole body can run on glucose (glycogen stores) but 70% of it, all but your brain and red blood cells, can also run on fat and your body overall prefers to always have a steady supply of fat so your liver doesn't have to send glycogen to your whole body to fuel it. Your liver can then focus this glycogen on fueling itself, your brain, and red blood cells. When you have a good supply of glycogen but no fatty acids in your system, theres always a slight feeling of being undernourished or not fully satiated, because your liver is kinda saying "hey...we're pretty good right now, but if I have to keep powering your whole body I'm gonna run out of energy soon!" whereas when you have a good supply of glycogen AND fatty acids in your system, your liver is more like "thanks, now I can focus this energy on the more crucial tasks of metabolism and you(fat) can run the basic metabolism of the body" and your liver is only burning through the glycogen at about the 30% rate as opposed to if it had to fuel the whole body.

Another thing I think is important to say is that carbohydrates and protein are hygroscopic, where as fat isn't....meaning carbs and protein are like sponges and require basically a bubble of water around themselves or they'll attempt to pull water from around themselves to satisfy this state. Fat just floats on the water but doesn't pull at it at all. So when eating carbs and protein, attempting to have the right balance of water is necessary, but with fats you don't need to worry about water pretty much at all. Your body doesn't like having to hold more water than it has to, as this puts pressure on all vessels and organs (because of the sponge, hygroscopis effect) and weighs you down. So if you eat a lot of carbs in one sitting, expect to either have a dehydrating astringent, tugging of the gut feeling, or a feeling of pressure and weighing downness. Carbs and protein are best taken moderately, appropriately throughout the day, with a little water (consistency of milk basically, or a slightly thick soup). Then fuel yourself with a steady supply of fat pretty much all the time as you like. I personally do best with about 50-55% of my calories from fat

@Pboy well thats my entire fear,all these macro talks,talks about weigth/fatgain(so many theories about it also on 180degrees). I know and that my body probably wants to pack on the fat as i like it all combined. Most days i dont care so much anymore about that as the main thing though it still plays around in my mind,but my biggest issue rigth now is that ill never be able to get off all my foodphobias vs feeling too good or too bad&eating a lot/nutrient deficincies&energy and not being able to have a normal 3square meals a day,let alone snacking or getting cals inbetween from drinks!
Im still confused about what its all for in the body...i only know that you need. At least a bit of fat for nutrient uptake.
Relatively i know that for a job as a roadmaker,youll probably need the 3000cals,but i also experienced that its not about eating whatever energywise but also a lot about nutrient/mineralbalance&deficincies,liverdetox,rigth fluid&sodium/potassium balance etc.
I really admire/envy the people at 180degrees who laughingly tell their stories about eating that much everyday,some wanting to up it even more,some even losing weigth or only seeing positive results in their workouts.

So today i kept stuffing myself and lethargically ate almost an entire speltcake again,had 2yoghurt banana canesugar smoothies(medium) ate a white chocolate bar entirely from vivani(no soy or gums added) and i bougth a jar of ricepudding bc i thougth 'what does it matter anyway,my life sucks anyway' but when i came home discovered i left it at the store. So that meant no late nigth dinner(i hope it was the universe trying to protect me from more harm) so i opened zhe fridge to see what was left....and i microwaved(i know. Bad) a ripe plantain sprinkled it with cinnamon and threw some shredded peccorino over it. Holy hell,am i warm now! Feels kinda nice,but also. makes me sleepy ,though i usually am not freezing cold but these warm hands,neck&feet are kinda nice,though the sleepy/calm feeling also. scares me bc it reminds me too much of my lazy tired fat past, and in my kind i connect this warmth with fatgain.(i wouldnt mind if some fat would provide bigger boobs,but only going to boobs!)
I wonder if ill ever get the life im dreaming of and being able to. enjoy it anciousfree....thats what a total shitpast can do to you and im not just talking about bodyimage.

@Narouz so the baked ripe plantain with the peccorino doesnt leave you feeling hollow,probably bc the plantain isnt so watery. What i did find odd is that too much. cheese suddenly tasted too salty and made me thirsty whereas i dont get such an extreme effect with the himalayansalt....so not sure if thats a good thing.

 

[tomisonbottom]

I worked with a nutritionist who understands Peat's info.

I haven't had heartburn or reflux either, but a lot of people do because they are eating food, but not actually digesting it. It need to go somewhere, so it goes up instead of down.

If you eat a meal and it still in your stomach at the end of the day (would happen to me frequently, but was not aware of it, when I ate meat/fat), you have not actually gotten any benefit from the food. I was confusing "full" with nourished. Yes, I believe a lot of people are not as healthy as they think they are.

Now, mostly in the summer when I am less stressed, I can eat meat at night (lowest stomach acid levels of the day) and actually have an empty stomach in an hour or so. It's rare still, but it does happen from time to time. Mostly I am ecstatic if I can digest meat in the AM. I still have trouble with the assimilation in the intestines after digestion. More food getting too the intestine means more work.

I never really realized how bad off I was until I started getting better. Only now can I even conceive of the possibilities. If your "standard" is already unhealthy and you are not even as healthy as they are......

I'M really curious about this.
When you say "empty stomach", do you mean you just don't feel full in less than an hour, or do you have a bowel movement right after you eat?

 

[mimi]

Re: Overheard at Starbucks

Mike: Hey man! Long time no see!
Darley: Yeah, I moved a few blocks away.
Mike: So how ya doin’? You still doing that Caveman diet thing?
Darley: No, I changed that actually. I’m eating a…[voice trails off]
Mike: What was that?
Darley: I’m, uh, eating a Ray Peat lifestyle.
Mike: What?
Darley: I mean I’m living a Ray Peat lifestyle.
Mike: Yeah…Peat. You were talking about him a little last time I saw you. I thought he was into like nutrition and diet.
Darley: Well, he is. I mean nutrition. But it’s more complex.
Mike: Well…what ya been eating? Looks like you put on a few pounds. [pokes playfully at Darley’s protruding belly.]
Darley: It’s just glycogen and water, so it’s a good thing. [looks off] It’ll go away when I heal.
Mike: OK. So on this Ray Peat lifestyle, what is your diet? I mean what kinds of things do you eat?
Darley: We don’t like to use the word “diet.” It scares people.
Mike: Really?
Darley: Yeah…makes them think of scales and anorexia.
Mike: Ya think? Okay. Well…I still am curious about your…I mean I’m wishing I could get an idea of what you’re eating.
Darley: It’s all about context. And healing.
Mike: Right. Gotcha. But...food? Like foods you put in your mouth?
Darley: It all depends.
Mike: Okay, never mind. You say you’re doing this Ray Peat “lifestyle.” What kind of stuff do you do on that kind of lifestyle?
Darley: Well…just the usual. Peat doesn’t say too much about it. He mostly talks about food.
Mike: Jeezus! Stay in touch man.

LOVE this! =D

 

[Evandrojr]

Hi Ray-Z. You mentioned you resolved your constipation by eliminating potatoes, along with some other changes. Would you mind sharing what these other changes were?? Thanks!

Actually, I concluded a few weeks ago that my beloved potatoes had betrayed me to the dark forces of bacterial endotoxin, and removed them from my diet. I have been starch-free ever since. This change (along with a couple of others) has more or less eliminated my chronic constipation.

 

[X3CyO]

This diet is just what other primates eat; the same taxonomy applies between the physiology wanted to be obtained leading to variations in appearance.



Large monkeys/apes eat a lot of fruit, vegetables, animals, and sometimes other monkeys.

Medium sized monkeys/apes eat fruit and small animals whole

Small monkeys/apes eat insects and leaves with some fruit.

In some monkeys its observed that they "juice" fruit, and spit out the fiber.



To me it seems Peat wants to focus on the medium sized variety and focus on pushing excess calories towards brain growth instead of muscles.

A strict peat diet is just that.

Fruit and whole animals.


Any breakdown product of that isnt ideal as theyres not enough nutrition or calories provided, and as such if eaten, should be eaten in correct balanced proportions.
Even then though, problems can occur as seen in variables such as eating gelatin without inflammatory meats leading to poor tissue reconstruction.

Milk is the only variable thats naturally unnatural to ingest past childhood and as such is an ideal foodsource without whole meats and fruit available since it has everything in one with the only issue being the need to secure an unadultarated source.


A peat diet is our biological diet before cavemen. But to say that of course would be dogma and against peats wide open mindedness.


To me, peat is just doing his best to keep the orthorexics from destroying themselves eating the "perfect" diet which would lead to more lies and confusion keeping good health away from good people.

Thats probably what food indistries thought when it came to high fructose corn syrup sodas being eaten with "normal meals", which tends to throw a giant pile of glucose into the bloodstream in the form of starches.



As for the starches, roots, beans, etc. im sure if paired correctly with their opposites and reduced to something composed similarly to a fruit, that it can lead to adequate nutrition.



Thats just what I got so far from this lifestyle.





I wonder if its just seed oils that are bad and if the normal biological internal processing of seeds can be beneficial. Sprouting releases vitamins and turns minerals to bioavailable forms in a lot of cases; wouldnt it make sense that sprouting inside the stomach would have similar benefits to a Multivitamin? (not chewing/damaging the seeds)
Kind of like how coffee is a seed, but broken down through heat, releasing chemicals, minerals, and vitamins. I wonder if just like sprouting, the reason why freshly roasted coffee is considered a whole other beast compared to the normally served "dead" coffee, is because theirs more available b vitamins that havent decayed off yet.




Anyways. Thats enough monologuing.

As always, thank you charlie, haidut, tyw, all the forum members and peat most of all for blowing my mind on the daily.

 

[kayumochi]

I am sceptical of diets that have no history of successfully supporting a civilisation, any civilisation, for centuries. Veganism, for example. And any attempt to put together a Ray Peat diet that doesn't mirror a successful historical diet.