KMUD - April 15, 2022: Vaccines / Authoritarianism / Tylenol

[teslabox]

Show starts at 2:37.

The last caller (starting at 56:55) asked about vaccines, febrile seizures and Tylenol: "is this a vaccine problem, or a Tylenol problem?"

RP: "Tylenol has very serious side effects. For example, Prenatal use of Tylenol is well-associated with the increased risk of autism. It's a matter of toxic effects. Any inflammation during gestation, or poisoning by something such as Tylenol, will increase birth defects and neurological defects such as autism." [...] "They warn people not to use aspirin before getting vaccinated, because aspirin actually defends against the harmful effects of vaccines. But Tylenol is poisonous enough that it doesn't protect very well against the inflammatory damage."

Question for you all: what are your experiences with Tylenol? After the show I messaged my Canadian friend to caution her again about Tylenol, and said that if she had to take something Ibuprofen would probably be safer. She wrote back to say she'd taken some Tylenol earlier that day, and had gotten dizzy, but didn't connect the dizziness to the pills until I'd messaged. Someone else told me today that she'd taken Aleve when her knees were at their worst, before the replacements. Is Aleve any better than ibuprofen?

After this show I emailed Dr. Peat about Tylenol. He didn't answer my specific questions, but I think he figured out what I was actually asking. This was his response:

Tylenol damages the electron transport chain in mitochondria, producing reactive oxygen species. Increased concentration of PUFA can amplify the damage caused by ROS.

Drug Discov Ther. 2021 Nov 21;15(5):278-280.
Does immunosuppressive property of non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) reduce COVID-19 vaccine-induced systemic side effects?
Itsuro Kazama 1 , Momono Senzaki 1
Free article
Abstract
To help stop the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic, vaccines are currently the most critical tool. However, the COVID-19 mRNA vaccines frequently cause systemic side effects shortly after the injection, such as fever, headache and generalized fatigue. In our survey, after receiving the second dose of the COVID-19 vaccine, 80% developed fever, 62% headache and 69% generalized fatigue. Among people who required antipyretics, the average durations of fever and headache were significantly shorter in those who took non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs), such as aspirin, loxoprofen and ibuprofen, than those who took acetaminophen. In our patch-clamp studies, NSAIDs effectively suppressed the delayed rectifier K+-channel (Kv1.3) currents in T-lymphocytes and thus exerted immunosuppressive effects. Because of this pharmacological property, the use of NSAIDs should be more effective in reducing the vaccine-induced systemic side effects that are caused primarily by the enhanced cellular immunity.

Altern Med Rev. 2009 Dec;14(4):364-72.
Did acetaminophen provoke the autism epidemic?
Peter Good
Schultz et al (2008) raised the question whether regression into autism is triggered, not by the measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine, but by acetaminophen (Tylenol) given for its fever and pain. Considerable evidence supports this contention, most notably the exponential rise in the incidence of autism since 1980, when acetaminophen began to replace aspirin for infants and young children. The impetus for this shift - a Centers for Disease Control and Prevention warning that aspirin was associated with Reye's syndrome - has since been compellingly debunked. If aspirin is not to be feared as a cause of Reyes syndrome, and acetaminophen is to be feared as a cause of autism, can the autism epidemic be reversed by replacing acetaminophen with aspirin or other remedies?

Planta Med 1989; 55(5): 417-419
© Georg Thieme Verlag Stuttgart · New York
Silybin Dihemisuccinate Protects Against Glutathione Depletion and Lipid Peroxidation Induced by Acetaminophen on Rat Liver
Rolando Campos, Argelia Garrido, Ricardo Guerra, Alfonso Valenzuela
Laboratorio de Bioquímica Farmacológica, Instituto de Nutrición y Tecnología de los Alimentas. Universidad de Chile, Casilla 15138, Santiago 11, Chile
Abstract
Acetaminophen hepatotoxicity is characterized by glutathione depletion, cellular necrosis, and, in some instances, by the induction of lipid peroxidation. Silybin dihemisuccinate, a soluble form of the flavonoid silymarin, protects rats against liver glutathione depletion and lipid peroxidation induced by acute acetaminophen intoxication. Other biochemical parameters such as serum transaminases did not show the drastic increase observed under acetaminophen intoxication when animals were treated with the flavonoid. Preliminary results suggest that silybin dihemisuccinate may be another antidote against acetaminophen hepatotoxicity.

React Oxyg Species (Apex). 2018 May; 5(15): 145–158.
Oxidant Stress and Lipid Peroxidation in Acetaminophen Hepatotoxicity
Hartmut Jaeschke and Anup Ramachandran
Abstract
Acetaminophen (APAP) overdose is the most frequent cause of liver injury and acute liver failure in many western countries. The mechanism of APAP-induced hepatocyte necrosis has been investigated extensively. The formation of a reactive metabolite and its binding to cellular proteins was initially thought to be responsible for cell death. A competing hypothesis was introduced that questioned the relevance of protein binding and instead suggested that P450-derived oxidant stress and lipid peroxidation causes APAP-induced liver injury. However, work over the last 15 years has reconciled some of these apparent contradictory hypotheses. This review summarizes the present state of knowledge on the role of reactive oxygen species (ROS) in APAP hepatotoxicity. Detailed investigations into the sources and relevance of the oxidant stress have clearly shown the critical role of the electron transport chain of mitochondria as main source of the oxidant stress. Other potential sources of ROS such as cytochrome P450 enzymes or NADPH oxidase on phagocytes are of limited relevance. The mitochondria-derived superoxide and peroxynitrite formation is initiated by the binding of the reactive metabolite to mitochondrial proteins and the amplification by mitogen activated protein kinases. The consequences of this oxidant stress are the opening of the mitochondrial membrane permeability transition pore with cessation of ATP synthesis, nuclear DNA fragmentation and ultimately cell necrosis. Lipid peroxidation is not a relevant mechanism of cell death but can be a marker of ROS formation. These mechanistic insights suggest that targeting mitochondrial oxidant stress is a promising therapeutic option for APAP hepatotoxicity.

 

[Lord Cola]

It's gotten to a point where Andrew takes up half of the show repeating stuff everyone knows and Ray Peat, who is the reason people listen to the show, can't hear most of the questions.

 

[teslabox]

Sometimes Andrew gets a little long winded, but I appreciate their shows nonetheless. I'm sure it's challenging to do a show where you have to assume a good part of your audience isn't necessarily familiar with the material.

I make it a point to listen to all the herb doctor shows, because Dr. Peat is constantly providing insights that are new to me, such as this insight about Tylenol being poisonous (in February's show he said Tylenol and Ibuprofen are both pro-inflammatory).

 

[haidut]

Sometimes Andrew gets a little long winded, but I appreciate their shows nonetheless. I'm sure it's challenging to do a show where you have to assume a good part of your audience isn't necessarily familiar with the material.

I make it a point to listen to all the herb doctor shows, because Dr. Peat is constantly providing insights that are new to me, such as this insight about Tylenol being poisonous (in February's show he said Tylenol and Ibuprofen are both pro-inflammatory).

There is actually quite a bit of info about Tylenol on the forum. If you hear a topic Ray discusses on an interview, I'd search the forum and more often than not you'd find multiple discussions on it.

Acetaminophen (Tylenol) Exposure During Pregnancy Feminizes The Offspring

I posted a number of threads on acetaminophen (Tylenol) in the past, in regards to its toxicity and questionable benefits, given the availability of much safer alternatives. The most concerning findings about acetaminophen to me (up until now) were related to its potent serotonergic effects...

raypeatforum.com

Acetaminophen (Tylenol) Decreases Respiration By Changing Cardiolipin Composition

I posted a few threads recently on the negative effects of acetaminophen (Tylenol) on brain function and steroid response. Acetaminophen (Tylenol) Exposure During Pregnancy Feminizes The Offspring Acetaminophen raises serotonin/adrenaline, aspirin lowers it User @Koveras also posted a thread...

raypeatforum.com

Acetaminophen raises serotonin/adrenaline, aspirin lowers it

The effects were observed in the brain, but they probably apply elsewhere given that aspirin is shown to reduce plasma serotonin. There are quite a few studies showing increased risk of heart attacks resulting from chronic intake of acetaminophen and ibuprofen. If these NSAIDs do in fact raise...

raypeatforum.com

Acetaminophen (Tylenol) Depletes DHEA-S And Other Sulfated Steroids

It is well-known that in animal studies acetaminophen has a potent anti-androgenic and feminizing effect. In some animal models it also reliably causes autism-like symptoms. Given its widespread use and heavy marketing by hospitals, especially to pregnant women (due to its lack of effect on...

raypeatforum.com

Acetaminophen (APAP) increases risk taking behaviour

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32888031/ Acetaminophen, an analgesic and antipyretic available over-the-counter and used in over 600 medicines, is one of the most consumed drugs in the USA. Recent research has suggested that acetaminophen's effects extend to the blunting of negative as well as...

raypeatforum.com

Acetaminophen In Pregnancy Linked To Austism, Possibly Through Serotonin

@haidut has written before about the link between elevated serotonin levels in a mother during pregnancy and autism in babies, and between acetominophen (tylenol/paracetamol) and serotonin. Stress Activates A Serotonin Gene In Pregnant Women And That Causes Autism Serotonin Causes Autism...

raypeatforum.com

@teslabox

 

[teslabox]

@haidut - Thanks for the links.

What really got me in Dr. Peat's email was the connection between the 'autism epidemic' and the replacement of Aspirin with acetaminophen in the 1980's. Implication that it's not just the increased number of aluminum hydroxide injections, but also a mass poisoning epidemic.

Looked for some forum posts about ibuprofen and naproxen sodium (Aleve). Seems like they're both not as beneficial as aspirin, but less poisonous than acetaminophen?

(edit: fix misspell)

 

[haidut]

Seems like they're both not as beneficial as aspirin, but less poisonous than acetaminophen?

Yep, basically "middle of the road" in terms of risk but I would still only use if here is no aspirin around. All modern NSAID except aspirin have a known risk of causing heart attacks or cardiac arrest when used long-term, even in low doses.

 

[tastyfood]

Show starts at 2:37.

The last caller (starting at 56:55) asked about vaccines, febrile seizures and Tylenol: "is this a vaccine problem, or a Tylenol problem?"

RP: "Tylenol has very serious side effects. For example, Prenatal use of Tylenol is well-associated with the increased risk of autism. It's a matter of toxic effects. Any inflammation during gestation, or poisoning by something such as Tylenol, will increase birth defects and neurological defects such as autism." [...] "They warn people not to use aspirin before getting vaccinated, because aspirin actually defends against the harmful effects of vaccines. But Tylenol is poisonous enough that it doesn't protect very well against the inflammatory damage."

Question for you all: what are your experiences with Tylenol? After the show I messaged my Canadian friend to caution her again about Tylenol, and said that if she had to take something Ibuprofen would probably be safer. She wrote back to say she'd taken some Tylenol earlier that day, and had gotten dizzy, but didn't connect the dizziness to the pills until I'd messaged. Someone else told me today that she'd taken Aleve when her knees were at their worst, before the replacements. Is Aleve any better than ibuprofen?

After this show I emailed Dr. Peat about Tylenol. He didn't answer my specific questions, but I think he figured out what I was actually asking. This was his response:

Is there any way to get these programs in podcast feed format? Dan Wich used to run one but it hasn't updated in a long time.

 

[RealNeat]

@Lejeboca

 

[milk_lover]

When a child body temperature goes up, what are you supposed to give to the child to reduce his/her temperature? The doctors here prescribe paracetamol which is another name for acetaminophen and it actually helps their temperature to go down. @haidut any suggestion would be appreciated.

 

[teslabox]

When a child body temperature goes up, what are you supposed to give to the child to reduce his/her temperature? The doctors here prescribe paracetamol which is another name for acetaminophen and it actually helps their temperature to go down. @haidut any suggestion would be appreciated.

Not all fevers need to be reduced. I think cool compresses would be a good first resort. Otherwise, wikipedia says Aspirin, Ibuprofen and Naproxen are also indicated for treating fevers.

 

[milk_lover]

Not all fevers need to be reduced. I think cool compresses would be a good first resort. Otherwise, wikipedia says Aspirin, Ibuprofen and Naproxen are also indicated for treating fevers.

Can you give aspirin to children?

 

[Lejeboca]

Is there any way to get these programs in podcast feed format? Dan Wich used to run one but it hasn't updated in a long time.

Gives your 5 most recent "Friday talk shows":

https://archive.kmudfm.org/getrss.php?id=fritalk

 

[tastyfood]

Gives your 5 most recent "Friday talk shows":

https://archive.kmudfm.org/getrss.php?id=fritalk

Brilliant. It worked. Thank you!

 

[Lollipop2]

Can you give aspirin to children?

I don’t see why not. Aspirin has been around much longer than the others. I imagine it was given many times to children over the years. You might reduce the dosage. And of course I am applying logic here and could be wrong. I have yet to research it. If I had a child that I felt needed it, I would give aspirin with milk which is how I take it. Protects the stomach and works wonders.

 

[Lizb]

I don’t see why not. Aspirin has been around much longer than the others. I imagine it was given many times to children over the years. You might reduce the dosage. And of course I am applying logic here and could be wrong. I have yet to research it. If I had a child that I felt needed it, I would give aspirin with milk which is how I take it. Protects the stomach and works wonders.

I live in the UK.

When I was growing up we only had aspirin available. My mother used a dissolvable product called disprin. She used to crush it on the bread board and mix it with jam.

I think the temperature is killing the bacteria or virus (happy to be corrected here). I used to just cool the children with a tepid flannel and have them sleep under just a sheet, unless of course the temperature was verging on being too high when I would then give Calpol.

I have yet to listen to the show but I did ask Ray recently about replacing aspirin where aspirin causes difficulty to asthmatics. He said it was fine to use and also said it can be used for treating Covid (where aspirin can't be used).

 

[Lollipop2]

I live in the UK.

When I was growing up we only had aspirin available. My mother used a dissolvable product called disprin. She used to crush it on the bread board and mix it with jam.

I think the temperature is killing the bacteria or virus (happy to be corrected here). I used to just cool the children with a tepid flannel and have them sleep under just a sheet, unless of course the temperature was verging on being too high when I would then give Calpol.

I have yet to listen to the show but I did ask Ray recently about replacing aspirin where aspirin causes difficulty to asthmatics. He said it was fine to use and also said it can be used for treating Covid (where aspirin can't be used).

Hey thanks for this confirmation. Great idea to crush and mix with jam! I agree the temp does kill the virus. Nice idea to use a flannel and sleep under just a sheet. Seems like you applied good logic and wisdom with your children

 

[milk_lover]

I live in the UK.

When I was growing up we only had aspirin available. My mother used a dissolvable product called disprin. She used to crush it on the bread board and mix it with jam.

I think the temperature is killing the bacteria or virus (happy to be corrected here). I used to just cool the children with a tepid flannel and have them sleep under just a sheet, unless of course the temperature was verging on being too high when I would then give Calpol.

I have yet to listen to the show but I did ask Ray recently about replacing aspirin where aspirin causes difficulty to asthmatics. He said it was fine to use and also said it can be used for treating Covid (where aspirin can't be used).

I googled Calpol and it's the same active ingredient as acetaminophen. Did Peat say it's fine to use it?

 

[milk_lover]

I don’t see why not. Aspirin has been around much longer than the others. I imagine it was given many times to children over the years. You might reduce the dosage. And of course I am applying logic here and could be wrong. I have yet to research it. If I had a child that I felt needed it, I would give aspirin with milk which is how I take it. Protects the stomach and works wonders.

It's good to keep that in mind in case we need it. My partner will never use aspirin for children. I might need more studies to convince her.

 

[Beastmode]

It's good to keep that in mind in case we need it. My partner will never use aspirin for children. I might need more studies to convince her.

I've asked Peat this on a number of occasions. The only way he'll answer it is pointing how unsafe other products are and the studies claiming aspirin is dangerous were false.

Our toddler had a fever for about a week. We didn't go the aspirin route, rather we stuck to epsom salt and baking soda baths daily. It's seems premature to give a child aspirin, which I'm not against the substance at all, when there are so many other ways to support their system during that time.

 

[milk_lover]

I've asked Peat this on a number of occasions. The only way he'll answer it is pointing how unsafe other products are and the studies claiming aspirin is dangerous were false.

Our toddler had a fever for about a week. We didn't go the aspirin route, rather we stuck to epsom salt and baking soda baths daily. It's seems premature to give a child aspirin, which I'm not against the substance at all, when there are so many other ways to support their system during that time.

Interesting about epsom salt + BS baths. Thanks for the tip. I am pretty sure temperature increase is good for children as it helps them fight viruses but the problem is when it gets too high that the mother panics.