Why PUFA is bad: how high membrane polyunsaturation decreases longevity

Mauritio

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Why PUFA is bad: how high membrane polyunsaturation decreases longevity:



This is probably one of the most interesting papers I've read in a long time . It goes into depth about the danger of PUFA and conncects the dots between PUFA ,membranes ,rate of living theory, life expectancy, and cancer .
They state that PUFA increases lipid peroxidation, yet they still manage to conclude that pufa in membranes is good and a lower metabolic rate increases longevity. So the conclusion is off sometimes but the material in this review is invaluable.

I would advise everyone to read the full study. Especially the parts about membrane fatty acid composition! I have copied the parts that I found most interesting and some conclusions.


1. Rate of living theory doesn't adequately explain maximum lifespan
2. Metabolic rate influences cellular memabrane composition
3. More saturated membranes = longer lifespan
4. Even 5%more PUFA in the membrane means 16x more peroxidative damage
5. The carcinogenic /mutagenic lipid peroxidation end-products can ONLY be derived from PUFA
6. Lipid peroxidation (caused by PUFA) is a self reinforcing process
7. PUFA slows down oxidative metabolism by reducing cytochrome oxidase (amongst others)
8. A cornerstone of the rate of living theory is that increasing size in animals equals a lower metabolic rate . This is true for a very simple reason : "If a mouse increased in size to that of a horse and its BMR increased in direct proportion to the increase in body mass, the horse-sized mouse would need a surface temperature of ∼100°C to rid itself of the heat produced by its BMR (134)."
So to have body temperature of 37° (a little more or less in different mammals) the body MUST slow down metabolism ,because otherwise proteins would start to degrade as in high fever. Which does NOT mean that this "slowing down" of metabolism is what's causing longer lifespan in bigger animals !
9. Especially intraspecific studies have shown that there's a positive correlation between metabolic rate and longevity
10. The lower the peroxidation susceptibility (lower PUFA content = lower peroxidation susceptibility) of the liver and muscle membranes the longer the life span of mammals.



"The differences in the characteristic maximum life span of species was initially proposed to be due to variation in mass-specific rate of metabolism. This is called the rate-of-living theory of aging and lies at the base of the oxidative-stress theory of aging, currently the most generally accepted explanation of aging. However, the rate-of-living theory of aging while helpful is not completely adequate in explaining the maximum life span.


Recently, it has been discovered that the fatty acid composition of cell membranes varies systematically between species, and this underlies the variation in their metabolic rate.


When combined with the fact that 1) the products of lipid peroxidation are powerful reactive molecular species, and 2) that fatty acids differ dramatically in their susceptibility to peroxidation, membrane fatty acid composition provides a mechanistic explanation of the variation in maximum life span among animal species.


This means that saturated and monounsaturated fatty acyl chains (SFA and MUFA, respectively) are essentially resistant to peroxidation while PUFA are damaged. Furthermore, the greater the degree of polyunsaturation of PUFA, the more prone it is to peroxidative damage. Holman (148) empirically determined (by measurement of oxygen consumption) the relative susceptibilities of the different acyl chains (see Fig. 1). Docosahexaenoic acid (DHA), the highly polyunsaturated omega-3 PUFA with six double bonds, is extremely susceptible to peroxidative attack and is eight times more prone to peroxidation than linoleic acid (LA), which has only two double bonds. DHA is 320 times more susceptible to peroxidation than the monounsaturated oleic acid (OA) (148).


The peroxidation index of a membrane is not the same as its unsaturation index (sometimes also called its “double bond index”), which is a measure of the density of double bonds in the membrane. For example, a membrane bilayer consisting solely of MUFA will have an unsaturation index of 100 and a peroxidation index of 2.5, while a membrane bilayer consisting of 95% SFA and 5% DHA will have an unsaturation index of 30 and a peroxidation index of 40. This means that although the 5% DHA-containing membrane has only 30% the density of double bonds of the monounsaturated bilayer, it is 16 times more susceptible to peroxidative damage.
1621783593615.png



1621782764921.png


The resulting peroxyl radical is highly reactive: it can attack membrane proteins and can also oxidize adjacent PUFA chains. Thus the initial reaction is repeated and a free radical chain reaction is propagated. Unless quenched by antioxidants, lipid peroxidation is a self-propagating autocatalytic process producing several potent ROS. It can also generate lipid hydroperoxides (124, 335, 336), which are more hydrophilic than unperoxidized fatty acyl chains, and these can thus disrupt the membrane structure, altering fluidity and other functional properties of membranes.

The hydroperoxides and endoperoxides, generated by lipid peroxidation, can undergo fragmentation to produce a broad range of reactive intermediates, such as alkanals, alkenals, hydroxyalkenals, glyoxal, and malondialdehyde (MDA; Ref. 95) (see Fig. 2). These carbonyl compounds (collectively described as “propagators” in Fig. 2) have unique properties contrasted with free radicals. For instance, compared with ROS or RNS, reactive aldehydes have a much longer half-life (i.e., minutes instead of the microseconds-nanoseconds characteristic of most free radicals). Furthermore, the noncharged structure of aldehydes allows them to migrate with relative ease through hydrophobic membranes and hydrophilic cytosolic media, thereby extending the migration distance far from the production site. On the basis of these features alone, these carbonyl compounds can be more destructive than free radicals and may have far-reaching damaging effects on target sites both within and outside membranes.
1621783332162.png


These DNA damage markers are mutagenic and carcinogenic, with powerful effects on signal transduction pathways (217).

Furthermore, they 1) are present in the genome of healthy humans, and other animal species, at biologically significant levels (similar or even higher than oxidation markers sensu stricto) (55), 2) are efficient inducers of mutations frequently detected in oncogenes or tumor suppressor genes from human tumors (254), 3) show increased levels in aged animals (55), 4) can be repaired by nucleotide excision repair systems and metabolized by oxidative pathways (262), 5) correlate with alterations in cell cycle control and gene expression in cultured cells (169), and 6) increase nearly 20-fold with a high-PUFA diet (97).




Thus lipid peroxidation should not be perceived solely in a “damage to lipids” scenario, but should also be considered as a significant endogenous source of damage to other cellular macromolecules, such as proteins and DNA (including mutations). In this way, variation in membrane fatty acid composition, by influencing lipid peroxidation, can have significant effects on oxidative damage to many and varied cellular macromolecules. For example, peroxidized cardiolipin in the mitochondrial membrane can inactivate cytochrome oxidase by mechanisms both similar to hydrogen peroxide and also mechanisms unique to organic hydroperoxides (251).

The variation obvious in Figure 6 is a clear demonstration that the rate-of-living generalization is only a rough predictor of how long a mammal species can maximally live. Its inability to precisely describe the maximum longevity of a mammal suggests other factors are involved in the determination of maximum life span.


"
Intraspecific studies on dogs (333), mice (234, 332), and humans (301) reveal a positive association between maximum life span and mass-specific metabolic rate "


Several intraspecific studies using mice and rats (40, 146, 202, 332, 333) have not observed an inverse relationship between mass-specific metabolic rate and MLSP. Indeed, some of these studies show the opposite of rate-of-living predictions, namely, that mice with high mass-specific metabolic rates tend to live longer than those individuals with low metabolic rates.


The liver mitochondrial membrane PI of mammals is proportional to their MLSP−0.40, which means that a 24% decrease in their peroxidative susceptibility is associated with every doubling of maximum life span. For skeletal muscle membranes, the corresponding value is that a 19% decrease in peroxidative susceptibility is associated with every doubling of MLSP in mammals (i.e., muscle PI is proportional to MLSP−0.30).
1621782828925.png


For example, if fed a diet devoid of PUFA, mammals will synthesize an unusual PUFA, mead acid (20:3 n-9) and accumulate it, together with more than normal amounts of MUFA in their membranes. However, with extreme manipulation of dietary fat composition, it is possible to effect small changes in membrane fat composition.

A low PUFA content in cellular membranes (and particularly in the inner mitochondrial membrane) will be advantageous in decreasing the sensitivity of the membrane to lipid peroxidation and would consequently also protect other molecules against lipoxidation-derived damage.

The studies summarized in Table 5 show that there are many reports of 1) an increase in either PUFA content or PI of membranes with age, 2) an increase in both in vitro and in vivo membrane lipid peroxidation with age, as well as 3) age-related changes in physicochemical membrane properties.


In view of these widespread changes in membrane composition and lipid peroxidation with age, it is of interest that in the senescence-accelerated mouse (SAM) strain, those mice that are SAM-prone (SAM-P mice) have greater levels of the highly polyunsaturated peroxidation-prone fatty acids (both 22:6 n-3 and 20:4 n-6) and lower levels of the less peroxidation-prone PUFA (18:2 n-6) in their membranes, and consequently a greater PI, than SAM-resistant mice (59, 281). SAM-prone mice also show greater degrees of lipid peroxides in their tissues than do SAM-resistant mice (221).

Regardless of the factors ultimately responsible for MLSP variation, there are two traits that are often associated with long-lived species: reduced rates of mitochondrial free radical production and reduced susceptibility of membranes to lipoxidation."

 
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Mauritio

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This study summarizes it pretty well :

On the other hand, endogenous antioxidants are negatively correlated with maximum longevity. The same is true for the rates of mitochondrial oxygen radical generation, oxidative damage to mitochondrial DNA, and the degree of fatty acid unsaturation of cellular membranes in postmitotic tissues. The lower rate of mitochondrial oxygen radical generation of long-lived animals in relation to that of short-lived ones can be a primary cause of their slow aging rate. This is secondarily complemented in long-lived animals with low rates of lipid peroxidation due to their low degrees of fatty acid unsaturation.
 
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Mauritio

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In this human study they showed that the level of the major lipid peroxidation product malonaldehyde (MA) was 3,6 times higher in human that ate a diet rich in PUFA compared to humans that ate a MUFA-rich diet .

"The average adduct level in the SO diet group was 7.4 +/- 8.7 adducts/10(7) nucleotides (n = 23). This level was 3.6-fold higher than that found in individuals in the RO diet group (P < 0.001). Our results, in conjunction with the mutagenic and carcinogenic properties of MA, thus suggest the interaction of lipid peroxidation products such as MA with DNA as one plausible mechanism explaining the involvement of dietary fat in carcinogenesis."

 
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Mauritio

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Regardless of the factors ultimately responsible for MLSP variation, there are two traits that are often associated with long-lived species: reduced rates of mitochondrial free radical production and reduced susceptibility of membranes to lipoxidation."
Regarding that this was part of their conclusion, I cannot understand how they dont endorse a high SFA diet and a diet lifestyle that increases metabolism, since they have stated themselves that SFA is incapable of lipid peroxidation and that uncoupling/high metabolism actually reduces free radicals.

Plus here's a study posted by haidut that shows a faster metabolism actually leads to lower free radicals.


 

Hans

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Based on this evidence, especially membranes and cardiolipin, I just can't understand why people insist on omega 3 supplementation. I've even heard the silly argument that sick people shouldn't take omega 3s whereas healthy people can and should. How could something that's harmful to a sick person suddenly become beneficial for a healthy person?!
 
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Mauritio

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Based on this evidence, especially membranes and cardiolipin, I just can't understand why people insist on omega 3 supplementation. I've even heard the silly argument that sick people shouldn't take omega 3s whereas healthy people can and should. How could something that's harmful to a sick person suddenly become beneficial for a healthy person?!
Is it really a surprise though?
Look at his study as an example. They provide all of this wonderful data , but they carefully dance around the fact that saturated fat might be helpful in any circumstance.
I dont know if they're so heavily institutionalized to believe that saturated fat is bad ,if they're simply ignorant or just wouldnt get there study published otherwise ...
However this study is 15 years old , so I hope today they would have the courage / possibilty to speak the truth.
 

Eberhardt

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Just wondering - how does this relate to birds. The lipid-profile of cell"membranes" with regard to SFA % fits in most species when adjusted for size of the species. Meaning High SFA equals increased lifespan. BUT it doesnt match with the lipids of birds. They are high in omega 6 and pufa and live exeptionally long compared to size (think parrots). Have anyone any idea for how this comes about?? my best suggestion sofar is that it is more applicable as an within-species phenomenon. Meaning that the percentage of SFA in individuals of a specie strongly affects that individuals longevity compared to other specie members but is still within the more complexly caused longevity range of that species?
 
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Mauritio

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Just wondering - how does this relate to birds. The lipid-profile of cell"membranes" with regard to SFA % fits in most species when adjusted for size of the species. Meaning High SFA equals increased lifespan. BUT it doesnt match with the lipids of birds. They are high in omega 6 and pufa and live exeptionally long compared to size (think parrots). Have anyone any idea for how this comes about?? my best suggestion sofar is that it is more applicable as an within-species phenomenon. Meaning that the percentage of SFA in individuals of a specie strongly affects that individuals longevity compared to other specie members but is still within the more complexly caused longevity range of that species?
I was wondering exactly the same that's why asked Peat about it. This was his answer:


"I think their high temperature and high glucose support the high fat saturation.

Exp Gerontol. 2001 Apr;36(4-6):869-83.
Comparative biology of aging in birds: an update
D J Holmes, R Flückiger, S N Austad
The long life spans and slow aging rates of birds relative to mammals are paradoxical in view of birds' high metabolic rates, body temperatures and blood glucose levels, all of which are predicted to be liabilities by current biochemical theories of aging. Available avian life-table data show that most birds undergo rapid to slow "gradual" senescence. Some seabird species exhibit extremely slow age-related declines in both survival and reproductive output, and even increase reproductive success as they get older. Slow avian senescence is thought to be coupled evolutionarily with delayed maturity and low annual fecundity. Recent research in our lab and others supports the hypothesis that birds have special adaptations for preventing age-related tissue damage caused by reactive oxygen species (ROS) and advanced glycosylation endproducts, or AGEs, as well as an unusual capacity for neurogeneration in brain. Much of this work is in its early stages, however, and reliable biomarkers for comparing avian and mammalian aging need more thorough development."
 

Eberhardt

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I was wondering exactly the same that's why asked Peat about it. This was his answer:


"I think their high temperature and high glucose support the high fat saturation.

Exp Gerontol. 2001 Apr;36(4-6):869-83.
Comparative biology of aging in birds: an update
D J Holmes, R Flückiger, S N Austad
The long life spans and slow aging rates of birds relative to mammals are paradoxical in view of birds' high metabolic rates, body temperatures and blood glucose levels, all of which are predicted to be liabilities by current biochemical theories of aging. Available avian life-table data show that most birds undergo rapid to slow "gradual" senescence. Some seabird species exhibit extremely slow age-related declines in both survival and reproductive output, and even increase reproductive success as they get older. Slow avian senescence is thought to be coupled evolutionarily with delayed maturity and low annual fecundity. Recent research in our lab and others supports the hypothesis that birds have special adaptations for preventing age-related tissue damage caused by reactive oxygen species (ROS) and advanced glycosylation endproducts, or AGEs, as well as an unusual capacity for neurogeneration in brain. Much of this work is in its early stages, however, and reliable biomarkers for comparing avian and mammalian aging need more thorough development."
that's interesting! I dont understand his expression "support the high fat saturation" - do you think he means compensates for the lack of it?? But it sounds like you could then make a superbird if you could keep the benefits they have and then have them have saturated fatcells. I dont suggest this to be realistic just fantasizing - Now for the quote from Holmes et.al. that is interesting though not very illuminating. It seems like they just say "we propose they have good antioxidant status" - which might be true but seems mainly conjecture. If so, maybe its more because of the high temp and glucose Peat menitions :)
 
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Mauritio

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that's interesting! I dont understand his expression "support the high fat saturation" - do you think he means compensates for the lack of it?? But it sounds like you could then make a superbird if you could keep the benefits they have and then have them have saturated fatcells. I dont suggest this to be realistic just fantasizing - Now for the quote from Holmes et.al. that is interesting though not very illuminating. It seems like they just say "we propose they have good antioxidant status" - which might be true but seems mainly conjecture. If so, maybe its more because of the high temp and glucose Peat menitions :)
Yeah I think that's what he meant ,otherwise it doesnt really make sense.
Forum member tyw wrote some interest9ng posts on birds, membranes and PUFA.

No. My statements are not contradictory.

PUFA is essential for particular functions in a cell. There are many examples. DHA in the retina, Linolenic acid in cardiolipin, etc ..... But they are highly regulated, with very specific enzymes governing incorporation into very specific structures (be it a specific section on retinal ganglion cells, or specific concentrations of cardiolipin in cardiac tissue).

I have discussed some of these specific mechanisms in my posts on this thread -- Haidut's Summary Of PUFA . Again, these are highly regulated mechanism with multiple systems and enzymes working together.

PUFAs do not accumulate at will in the structures that are meant to use it. I have written about that at length on this forum, though many of the mechanisms are summarised in my article on PUFA in birds -- PUFA, Birds, and Genetics . In short, amount of PUFA incorporation into important structures like mitochondrial membranes, is governed and regulated heavily by endogenous mechanisms. So much so that if you feed birds a ton of PUFA, they do not accumulate it on their membranes at all (in fact, the high-PUFA-seed-eating birds lived longer)

We cannot just look at a simplistic mechanic like "PUFA breakdown products bad, therefore PUFA bad", and come to conclusions about PUFA consumption.

The first question is "why would PUFA be in excess quantities in the first place?" I am no fan of excessive consumption, and have consistently called for a reduction in PUFA consumption. That is still completely consistent with the fact that some PUFA is necessary.

Though "how much PUFA is the minimum?" is a question that needs to be answered by each individual. Personally, so long as I keep fat intake low to begin with, I don't really care about controlling for PUFA, because:​
- I have very low fat intake to begin with, which is rarely above 15g total fat in a day.​
- I rarely eat more than I need, evidenced by the fact that I have not gained any bodyweight in the last 3 years (in fact, I got leaner / lost fat)​


The next question is "Why, where, and how is PUFA oxidation going to cause damage?". It is clear that some generic breakdown of PUFA in the GI tract isn't going to be doing as much harm as lost of cardiolipin function in the heart (due to peroxidation of PUFA). In fact, almost all the loci whereby damage to PUFA causes systemic damage to the organism, are all referring to intra-cellular mechanisms, which are all guarded by endogenous mechanisms, which do not fail if the organism is functioning normally.

We're referring to mechanics like peroxidation of DHA on the retina without adequate recycling mechanisms, or the same in the membranes synapses of the brain leading to improper firing, or Apolipoprotein D (ApoD) malfunctions causing lack of Arachidonic Acid (ARA) clearance from the brain, or peroxidation of cardiolipin causing detachment from Cytochrome C and thus apoptosis of the cell, etc ....

While numerous, these are very specific points of damage, each of which in which the particular PUFA performs a particular role, and whereby there is a unique failure mode that isn't related to the PUFA itself whatsoever.

As an example:​
- If there is excess ARA in the brain, why did the brain want to upregulate ARA transport there to begin with? Obviously there must have been an inflammatory driver for this pathway to be over-expressed.​
- Why did ApoD malfunction? And How?​

Inevitably, if PUFAs are not in major excess to begin with, when we drive down into the details, it is always going to be some other pathogenesis driving PUFA dysregulation, and not because PUFAs are intrinsically bad.

Cases like "body sees peroxidised PUFA in chylomicrons in bloodstream" are the easy cases that can be dealt with by the immune system. Note that this is the case that will be seen even if PUFA is mobilised from stored tissue.

Cases like "Insulin signalling pathology driving excess fatty acids into liver cells and saturating their energy-producing mitochondrial membranes with PUFA", are the truly harmful ones, in which one should ask, "Why is insulin signalling screwed up in the first place?" (which often requires solutions like "improve body composition")

"Risk" must be defined specifically, and in the case of PUFA, many of these risks are known.

Also, I already noted that in all the experiments cited, it is exactly because they are more reactive, that most PUFAs are pre-disposed to be transported into mitochondria, and put through beta-oxidation quickly, instead of being stored.

Which also means that fixing poor body composition alone fixes many of those risks ;) -- stored PUFAs get mobilised and oxidised for energy.

Dietary PUFA restriction is still generally a good thing to do, and it is still my position that almost everyone in the world eats too much. People would be better off with the 4-5g / day PUFA intake of the traditional Okinawans.

.....

Firstly:
- all grains are going to have some PUFA
- all seeds are going to have some PUFA, even in the tropics
- the only nuts that are low PUFA are macadamias, and those still are MUFA dominated (ie: not saturated)

- And most importantly, the more granivorous a parrot was, the better their longevity.

ie: we are comparing a relative increase in unsaturated fat consumption, and finding a positive outcome.

Then, when we make a comparison to humans and other animals:

- whether or not a grain or seed has high quantities of vitamin E (or any compound that could "defend against PUFA accumulate")

- it is observed that excess PUFA consumption trumps any other factor in how much PUFA accumulates on the mitochondrial membranes in these other animals (including humans). Whereas in these long-lived birds, there is no such thing as excess PUFA consumption (endogenous regulatory pathways prevent accumulation no matter how much PUFA they eat)

.....
 

Eberhardt

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Yeah I think that's what he meant ,otherwise it doesnt really make sense.
Forum member tyw wrote some interest9ng posts on birds, membranes and PUFA.
Thanks!! That was a lot of info. Went through Tew's posts (unfortunatly he's article about birds was no longer up) . I think it also explains why some bodybuilders take Omega 6 and report better muscle gains. It's no surprise that things that produce increased growth is often not conducive to health - especially in adults. I think that's in line with Peat's ideas about HGH being a misnomer as it is not primerlty a growth hormone though it fills that role as well. And it also seems to fit with my idea that it is the within-speicies level that is most relevant (practically) as there are limits to how much we can (or should) manipulate fatty acid composition. It would seem that the enodogenous regulation of different spiecies (obviosly) fatty acid composition is indeed adjusted to the enviromental factors to which that species is confronted.
SInce humans seem quite susceptible to pufa exposure and its damaging side effects, it would seem to me to be only three logical explenations for that.

1: that we have developed in a very PUFA-low enviroment (I know Peat has suggested that we would have developed in warm climate on lots of fruit and low pufa - not sure about that thoug and would be interesting to compare human pufa-handling to that of other primates who has more of a diet like that to check it) ,

2: That we have developed in a very cold climate where it would be needed for mobility (peat has also hinted at this function as it is the explanation to why arctic and antarctic species have lots of PUFA to handle the cold), but I found that a bit weird.

3: That we have somehow lost our anti-oxidant capacity and that we once where more able to handle the pufa - That can be partly through as I belive that for various reasons modern humans are compromized physiologically but since the phenomenon of PUFA damage aslo occurs in other mammalians on land that has to a lesser degree had its habitat and habis disturbed (at least I think that's the case even though mainly Peats references to it is in supranatural amounts among caged/domesticated animals - but I think it is applicable)

I cant help but think all these three are a bit suspicious. If you look at archelogy and anthropology it is even if it is debated how much it has contributed quite obvious that high animals food diets have been predominant for at least 2 million years and the whole of the timeline of the species homo. DIsregarding the exact form of the trhee of the genus homo it is clear that homo-varieties have existed in northern eurasia for millions of years - meaning the fruit idea is sort of bunk. Even with honey taken into account. And most likely insects have been important and they are generally high pufa - especiall maggots and beatles which probably was the bulk of it.

I must also comment that Tew's opinion about not needing to think of pufa when low-fat is at least individual. I do eat fairly low fat but still adding just a teaspoon of oliveoil a day has delitrious effects - first noticalbe on my mucus membranes.

No idea where this goes except I think the inital answer from Peat about temp and glucose still gives sense to it a bit.
 

Hugh Johnson

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Based on this evidence, especially membranes and cardiolipin, I just can't understand why people insist on omega 3 supplementation. I've even heard the silly argument that sick people shouldn't take omega 3s whereas healthy people can and should. How could something that's harmful to a sick person suddenly become beneficial for a healthy person?!
It's immunosuppressive, so the sick should not take it. However, there is a lot of (almost certainly bad) research showing positive health effects, so healthy people would benefit from it. Of course, the stuff is toxic and those apparent health effects seem to come from immunosuppression.
 

Eberhardt

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It's immunosuppressive, so the sick should not take it. However, there is a lot of (almost certainly bad) research showing positive health effects, so healthy people would benefit from it. Of course, the stuff is toxic and those apparent health effects seem to come from immunosuppression.
I am not sure about that. It seems it actually has anti-inflammatory properties. Peat seems to think so too. The only thing is that the oxidative and antimetabolic/thyroid effects outweigh the benefits. It is especially visible (if I'm correct) in the fatty acids in like green lipped mussels. The hexagonal(?) furonrings (furonic-acid) seems to provide a lot of the benefits but they are also among the most volatile and easily oxidated fatty-acids. So its more of a short term vs long term effect. Long term bad, short term, so good. Of course it is ALSO immunorepressive but just saying I don't think we can discount the positives. Not advocating them though!
 

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I am not sure about that. It seems it actually has anti-inflammatory properties. Peat seems to think so too. The only thing is that the oxidative and antimetabolic/thyroid effects outweigh the benefits. It is especially visible (if I'm correct) in the fatty acids in like green lipped mussels. The hexagonal(?) furonrings (furonic-acid) seems to provide a lot of the benefits but they are also among the most volatile and easily oxidated fatty-acids. So its more of a short term vs long term effect. Long term bad, short term, so good. Of course it is ALSO immunorepressive but just saying I don't think we can discount the positives. Not advocating them though!
It's probably anti-inflammatory because it suppresses the immune system. Stop eating PUFA, that should do the trick. Aspirin etc in the short term.
 

Eberhardt

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It's probably anti-inflammatory because it suppresses the immune system. Stop eating PUFA, that should do the trick. Aspirin etc in the short term.
hmm, that's at least an interesting theory. I haven't eaten pufas in about 10 years. average between 0.3 and 4 grams daily depending on diet. I still don't know though- don't you think there is other mechanisms involved in addition to the immunosuppression causing the anti-inflammatory effects? F.ex it seems like O3 do actually mitigate some of the damages of too high O6 even though I think both is unhealthy. As far as I know O3 isnt much more immunosuppressive than O6 or am I missing something here. If it's not it clearly suggests there might be more pathways involved in its anti-inflammatory properties then purely immunosuppression
 

Doc Sandoz

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Not saying PUFA is not bad, but doesn't Ray dispute the whole concept of cellular membranes (perhaps not mitochonddrial membranes) as energetically-bankrupt, 19th century mechanical thinking, proven as such by Gilbert Ling.
 

Eberhardt

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Not saying PUFA is not bad, but doesn't Ray dispute the whole idea of cellular membranes as does Gilbert Ling?
Yes he does. Maybe someone else can explain this better then me but for a starter. There is a barrier and it does have some lipids in it. I undertand it more of a question of the nature of that barrier. In the main paradigm it is closed like a box and needs holes(channels) to let things in and out. And it is supposedly held togehter by the strength of the "membrane". According to Lings view it is held together by electrical force and does not constitute a closed barrier but is permiable depending on context and cellular signalling. It removes the need for a billion different channels which is supposed to be energetically unsustainable as they are to energy-consuming to exist and instead sees the organism as more processual maybe instead of a one molecule - one effect computer model.
 

Doc Sandoz

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Yes he does. Maybe someone else can explain this better then me but for a starter. There is a barrier and it does have some lipids in it. I undertand it more of a question of the nature of that barrier. In the main paradigm it is closed like a box and needs holes(channels) to let things in and out. And it is supposedly held togehter by the strength of the "membrane". According to Lings view it is held together by electrical force and does not constitute a closed barrier but is permiable depending on context and cellular signalling. It removes the need for a billion different channels which is supposed to be energetically unsustainable as they are to energy-consuming to exist and instead sees the organism as more processual maybe instead of a one molecule - one effect computer model.
This is basically my understanding as well. The "accepted" hypothesis posits channels and individual pumps for each electrolyte, etc. Ling proved the alleged pumps would require far more energy than ATP could provide, even accepting that the phosphate bond provides the energy and is as high an energy bond as supposed. The far simpler and more elegant alternative is that water, electrically structured by proteins, i.e., the gel-like "protoplasm", provides the cellular electrolyte gradient and all other functions distinguishing the living cell from its environment, and that the "membrane" is an artifact of the observaton process.

Removing the membrane hypothesis from this argument, it should still be possible to demostrate the deleterious effect of PUFAs under the Association Induction thoery. Maybe someone better informed than myself would like to take a stab at it?
 

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It seems it actually has anti-inflammatory properties. Peat seems to think so too.
It creates less inflammatory eicosanoids than O6, but it's not anti-inflammatory. Just less inflammatory.

However, the use of the term “anti” may not be the best description of these effects. “Anti” means opposed to. Most effects of n-3 PUFA on inflammation result from suppression rather than opposition of inflammation. n-3 PUFA suppresses the production of transcription factors and cytokines involved in inflammation (discussed below) and produce less-inflammatory eicosanoids. They do not produce mediators which oppose the actions of inflammatory cytokines. Examples of the anti-inflammatory effects of DHA and/or EPA include suppression of the production of numerous inflammatory mediators that include leukotriene-B4 (LTB4), prostaglandin E2 (PgE2), interleukin-1β (IL-1β), interleukin-2 (IL-2), interleukin-6 (IL-6), interleukin-8 (IL-8), tumor necrosis factor-α (TNF), and reactive oxygen species.” (R)

I have many other references in my omega 3 article as well: Why Omega 3 should be avoided and what to use/do instead » MENELITE
Rather taking some coconut oil, vitamin E, aspirin, etc., should help against excess inflammation without the need of supplementing fish oil.
 

Eberhardt

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It creates less inflammatory eicosanoids than O6, but it's not anti-inflammatory. Just less inflammatory.

However, the use of the term “anti” may not be the best description of these effects. “Anti” means opposed to. Most effects of n-3 PUFA on inflammation result from suppression rather than opposition of inflammation. n-3 PUFA suppresses the production of transcription factors and cytokines involved in inflammation (discussed below) and produce less-inflammatory eicosanoids. They do not produce mediators which oppose the actions of inflammatory cytokines. Examples of the anti-inflammatory effects of DHA and/or EPA include suppression of the production of numerous inflammatory mediators that include leukotriene-B4 (LTB4), prostaglandin E2 (PgE2), interleukin-1β (IL-1β), interleukin-2 (IL-2), interleukin-6 (IL-6), interleukin-8 (IL-8), tumor necrosis factor-α (TNF), and reactive oxygen species.” (R)

I have many other references in my omega 3 article as well: Why Omega 3 should be avoided and what to use/do instead » MENELITE
Rather taking some coconut oil, vitamin E, aspirin, etc., should help against excess inflammation without the need of supplementing fish oil.
Hi that was a very well formulated article. Everbody go read it.

I can't help noticing though the second line from the quote above: "Most effects of n-3 PUFA on inflammation result from suppression rather than opposition of inflammation."

Which is sort of what I was talking about. My present understanding is that it is both immunosuppresive and anti-inflammatory though not worth the many sideeffects. It also seems that I've underestimated the percentage it is purely immunosuppressive. I had a vage idea of like maybe 75 % of the "anti-inflammatory" effect being immunosuppression but now I think it might be more. But I remember Peat also saying on several occations that it had some actual anti-inflammatory properties. @Hans do you know anything about the studies claiming that a group beeing fed O6 only compared to the same amount of O6 + O3 having more inflamation. That seems to point to some contrary function to O6. Which also could be immunosuppression if O6 is less immunosuppressive the O3 (this is a seperate question to the analysiz of the percentage og O3s antiinflammatory effects being immunosuppressive )?

Doesnt this actually show some real antiinflammatory actions:Furan fatty acid as an anti-inflammatory component from the green-lipped mussel Perna canaliculus
?
 
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