Low-Fat Diet, Hypocaloric Diet, Weight Loss, Metabolism

[max219]

I've been eating between 3-10 grams of fat for the past 4 months now. I only ate between 30-40 grams maybe 5 times, and I ate around 100 grams on Christmas Day.

I enjoy eating this low fat, and I seem to maintain my body weight no matter how much I eat. I eat between 3000-3700 on average, and eat over 4000 calories once every 10 days or so. I am always 145-147 pounds no matter what. I feel I can lose fat easily if I drop it below 3000 calories for an extended period of time.

I have no idea if my pufa is depleted or not, but I feel pretty good doing this. I eat a ton of protein (about 200 grams each day on average), and I eat a good amount of starch also.

Thanks for the update. So you don't have any health issues now? Did you have some to address before you started RP foods?

Before Peating I just had a damaged metabolism from years of long distance running, a low carb diet, and a previous 6 month period of very low calorie dieting. I never had any serious health issues though.

 

[Waremu]

This might have been said before, but if I recall Peat himself he mentioned that if you have PUFA in tissue then the body will convert sugars into fat as a protective method.

In regards to vegan high-carb diets I have noticed one common thread: You have to eat over 3000 calories(if not higher) to experience fatloss. I have seen this discussed ad infinitum on the Fruitarian and McDougall diets. If you are lower than 3000 calories then apparently you are going to have a bad time.

However, this is what I have gathered as a layperson on those forums so I am not going to say that's the definitive method.

I am very familiar with the whole fruitarian community. I never was a full fruitarian, but did eat or experiment with a very high fruit diet at the time, so I am familiar with all of the main proponents of the vegan HCLF diet, etc. People like DurianRider and his girl friend do advocate people eat around 3000 calories pretty dogmatically. I think the main problem with these HCLF vegan "leaders" is that they often use their own experience to make certain judgments and then tell average people who come from a very unhealthy diet and are often overweight to do those certain things. A prime example of are the HCLF vegans who are telling people to eat 3000 calories. I think they fail to take into account the fact that they have been very low fat high carb for many years, so they are probably pretty PUFA depleted and thus, most likely may have a faster metabolism than the average person who is eating a normal SAD and is probably hypothyroid due to a diet full of PUFA, too much inflammatory proteins, serotonin, etc. So while there may certainly be people who can lose weight on 3000 calories a day, I don't think most people who are hypothyroid will lose weight on such a diet, as hypothyroid people even tend to easily gain weight on a moderate caloric intake, etc.

But of course there are also some who somewhat advocate a lower calorie diet (McDougall), but it seems like those who are more on the fruitarian side don't really bother caloric restriction (there are a number of YouTube channels of high fruit vegans who advocate a higher calorie diet), though I agree more with Dr. Peat in that I don't think reduced caloric intake long term is good for optimal health. In fact, calorie restriction can be mimicked by restricting the three main inflammatory amino acids that Ray Peat talks about and even studies show this to be true. And I think they get some things right when it come to weight loss (be more active, low fat, high carb, mostly fruit, etc.). I think the main reason most of the long term fruitarians/LFHC vegans are slim is because they avoid PUFA pretty strictly and of course do not eat too much of the inflammatory proteins (like muscle meats). Of course the downside of that is that their diet lacks certain important minerals like copper and zinc, and even Vitamin A. If they just added in some shell fish here and there and some low fat or fat free raw dairy, they'd probably have the near perfect or optimal diet, in my opinion.

I think no matter what phases I go through, I always find myself going back to eating high fruit, low fat, and moderate protein. Works the best for me.

 

[Zachs]

Fat free dairy contains quite a bit of sugar too so it wouldn't need to come entirely from fruit but if you stick to orange juice, ripe bananas and some frozen fruit or a few mangos, it really isn't that expensive. Yes, sucrose, honey or maple syrup would be great additions to get extra calories in. They just don't contain much in the way of vitamins/minerals so you got to be careful to get enough elsewhere.

500g is roughly an optimal level of glycogen storage of muscles and liver. Keeping them topped up is key in keeping stress hormones low and being insulin sensituve.

How long would I have to do this before I stopped gaining weight or started losing? How would I know and how soon would I be able to discern if 500g carbs/2000 calories is enough? I'm already having to force myself to eat 1500 calories to get up to 80 g. protein and 250 g. carbs, with no more than 20 g. fat; and I am gaining weight.

What's your view on calcium to phosphorus ratio? Eating an oyster or small amount of other shellfish, or liver along with all that fruit (most of which have more phosphorus than calcium) will put your ratio in deficit. Is this inconsequential? Is it your opinion that Peat is wrong to harp on this? In the radio interview about weight loss I've been referring to throughout this discussion, Peat mentions calcium intake and calcium to phosphorus ratio as being important to weight loss/metabolism.

I really don't know, Dean. It took me almost 3 years to recover from my 3 year stint of VLC to the point where I was healthy enough to lose the fat I had gained. Before than I just yoyod. You sound like you have some major issues if you are gaining fat on 1500 calories as a male. If you'd like to talk more in depth, you can pm me.

My personal C:PH ratio is at 1:1 and no I have never experienced a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio that Peat recommends. So I'm not saying that Peat is wrong in this instance, Just that I have never felt the need to try and up my ratio. I don't eat any meat so I feel like I get plenty of calcium to balance out the phosphorus that I do get.

One thing that always bugged me about this is that there is no way in nature to replicate a 2:1, 3:1 ratio. so why would such a high ratio be optimal if Our genetics have never been accustomed to it? Just something to think about.

 

[RPDiciple]

I have never heard RP say that calcium:phos needs to be more then 1:1. He says even 0.5:1 can be ok and 1:1 is super

 

[nikotrope]

I have never heard RP say that calcium:phos needs to be more then 1:1. He says even 0.5:1 can be ok and 1:1 is super

Where did he say 0.5:1 was okay?

In the following interview he says 1.5:1 viewtopic.php?f=73&t=6197

 

[schultz]

I have never heard RP say that calcium:phos needs to be more then 1:1. He says even 0.5:1 can be ok and 1:1 is super

Yah I agree, Ray has always said 1:1 calcium/phosphorus as a realistic ratio. Ray has mentioned that sugar, and I think specifically fructose, can help to take care of some extra phosphorus as well so a 0.5:1 calcium/phosphorus ratio could be compatible with good health if the person is eating a lot of fruit or something. Dairy is delicious and convenient though, so it's pretty easy to get 1:1, even with some eggs and meat.

 

[Jennifer]

I was just reading through the transcription of Ray's Milk, Calcium and Hormones interview
with East West Healing from June 3rd 2011 and in it he said:

"JR: Please elaborate on claims about milk draining calcium out of bones due to the higher phosphorus to calcium ratio than human have.

RP: No, the ratio in milk is very high towards calcium, so that even eating some meat or other foods that are high in phosphate, if you drink a good amount of milk, the high calcium will put these other excess phosphates into proportion. It should be 1.5 calcium per phosphate anyway. On Pubmed you can find that discussed [the incorrect claims of high phosphate in ratio to calcium], and basically, milk is – next to egg shells – our best source of calcium."

I've read 3:1, 2:1 and 1:1 in regards to sugar:protein ratios. Though, I'm not positive I read where Ray says a 3:1 ratio or if that was something I read from members on the forum. I recall Ray saying 2:1 and 1:1.

 

[RPDiciple]

Waremu: how much protein do you consume a day now? and how many kcals did you eat when u did the low/fat and lost fat?

also what foods did you eat to keep the fat intake as low as possible?

whats your bodyfat%?

 

[Waremu]

Waremu: how much protein do you consume a day now? and how many kcals did you eat when u did the low/fat and lost fat?

also what foods did you eat to keep the fat intake as low as possible?

whats your bodyfat%?

I have always shot for 1 gram per pound of body weight, as that is what is normal in bodybuilding and weight lifting in general (I regularly do strength training and come from a very athletic background). But since lowering my fat intake and upping my carbs, I have found that I don't need as much protein, as carbs are protein sparing. I also am trying to keep serotonin as low as possible, so lowering my overall protein intake has helped with this greatly. I also find it very hard to believe that someone can realistically consume a lot of protein (200g plus) while avoiding ammonia build-up, as some studies seem to show that that occurs when more than 25-30 grams of protein is ingested at once. Just to reach 180 grams of protein and possibly avoid or lesson the ammonia build-up issue, someone would have to divide that amount into six meals, and I do not think most people here are able to consume more than that each day. I can do 4-5 meals or more. No way could I consume 7-8 meals per day. Also, I would say almost half of my protein intake is gelatin and a little over half is milk/Greek yogurt, with the exception of shellfish a few times per week. The actual amount of protein I have been consuming is around 100 or a little more grams of protein.

I have been focusing on more of a high fruit diet to avoid the fat and feel satiated. I get raw milk from a local farm and skim the cream off. So skim milk, fat free Greek yogurt and gelatin are my main protein sources that have no added fat. Shellfish also is very low in fat and high in protein and minerals. I usually eat these foods throughout the day, so I stay fat-free during the day and then will usually consume some fat with my last meal before bed. I don't need much. I can add 7-10 grams of fat, for example, of coconut oil and still stay very very low fat (less than %5 of fat from overall calories).

I think most people have a hard time feeling satiated on a strict Proletarian diet, which is an almost liquid diet. I think not being satiated is a bigger problem than many will admit. Personally, I find that it is the main problem for me. I have been following Peat very strictly for years, but have then gotten to the point where my body literally needs some bulk and the willpower to keep consuming mostly liquid collapses. I just don't think it is doable long-term for most people.

So I focus on more whole fruits, as the fiber helps keep me satiated. I do not have a very purest mindset when it comes to fruit. I stay away from a few like grapefruit (which is possibly estrogenic) and do not consume the seeds as best a possible, and that that is about it. Most of the fruit people commonly eat is seedless (small seeds that are hard to avoid, that is) anyway, with the exception of some berries. I don't fret much more beyond that. I eat plenty of dates, as they are sugar bombs which pack a lot of nutrition (high in magnesium, potassium, etc.). I make smoothies with frozen mangos, dates, very ripe bananas, and fresh orange juice and milk and they are amazing.

I also have been eating some vegetable dinners lately. I have experimented and found that eating broccoli is safe and does not have any anti-thyroid effect on me. In fact, as long as it is well cooked, most of the anti-thyroid substances are destroyed. I think much of the broccoli being anti-thyroid claims are over-hyped, quite honestly. In fact, one study found that 20-30 minutes of boiling or high steaming reduced the anti-thyroid compounds by 90%. Vegetables such as broccoli also have very strong anti-estrogenic properties and actually seem to enhance the bodies ability to detoxify estrogen. So I think some well cooked greens are beneficial for me to keep me satiated and for extra minerals. I have been making an amazing Asian veggie and broccoli stir fry in sweet and sour sauce (which I make from scratch and is Peaty) over Japanese sushi rice. Sushi rice is the only starch I have been eating, as it seems to be the safest, easiest to digest starch. The vegetables keep me very satiated and I also get a lot of calcium and other minerals.

I feel best eating this way and I have also noticed that one day a few weeks ago, I experimented and ate more fat and I felt very sluggish and slow in my energy levels. I think once the body is fully adapted to efficiently using carbs, one can get by with very very little fat and be just fine. Without whole fruit and some cooked vegetables a few times per week, it would be very hard to feel satiated and that can be one reason why some feel like they have to eat more fat and end up eating more fat than they wanted or needed to eat.

I have not measured my BF lately, but before gaining a little weight by following Peat, I was around 12%. My goal is to get down to below 10%. I have been losing what I did gain so it shouldn't be very long until then. I have very high LBM so my main goal is to keep my strength and muscle while cutting.

 

[dd99]

Hahaha a Proletarian diet. Bloody autocorrect.

Nice post, Waremu. I'm also eating much more whole fruit than before (less juice) and have cut down on fat.

 

[Zachs]

interesting about the calcium to phosphorus ratio. I have always thought I read 2:1 and a mention of 3:1. I agree than that a 1:1 is pretty optimal.

 

[aquaman]

Since all the people love to bring up the Minnesota Experiement. Have anyone actually read the experiement?
Those men where STARVING, like clinicly starving. I can guarantee you that 99,9% of the people on this forum and in general have never been CLOSE to what those men where put through.

1560 calories per day ... I'm sure a lot of people on this board have been at or below that.

Ps every post I've seen of yours ... you sound like an a$$hole

 

[nikotrope]

Since all the people love to bring up the Minnesota Experiement. Have anyone actually read the experiement?
Those men where STARVING, like clinicly starving. I can guarantee you that 99,9% of the people on this forum and in general have never been CLOSE to what those men where put through.

1560 calories per day ... I'm sure a lot of people on this board have been at or below that.

Ps every post I've seen of yours ... you sound like an a$$hole

I've been eating 1300kcal for a period of 3-4 months in 2013. At that time my metabolism was terrible and I was not hungry. It was for weight loss which stopped after this period (aka my metabolism got worse). Like aquaman, I'm sure more people on this forum have been at these levels than you think.

 

[RPDiciple]

Since all the people love to bring up the Minnesota Experiement. Have anyone actually read the experiement?
Those men where STARVING, like clinicly starving. I can guarantee you that 99,9% of the people on this forum and in general have never been CLOSE to what those men where put through.

1560 calories per day ... I'm sure a lot of people on this board have been at or below that.

Ps every post I've seen of yours ... you sound like an a$$hole

1560 kcal where did that come from?
Sure everbody has had some days where they eat few calories, but not 6 months in a row. People love to lie and forget those 8000 kcal days that had in between the few days there where restricting calories.
Then they think oh i have terrible metabolism, i eat so little etc etc

 

[RPDiciple]

Since all the people love to bring up the Minnesota Experiement. Have anyone actually read the experiement?
Those men where STARVING, like clinicly starving. I can guarantee you that 99,9% of the people on this forum and in general have never been CLOSE to what those men where put through.

1560 calories per day ... I'm sure a lot of people on this board have been at or below that.

Ps every post I've seen of yours ... you sound like an a$$hole

I've been eating 1300kcal for a period of 3-4 months in 2013. At that time my metabolism was terrible and I was not hungry. It was for weight loss which stopped after this period (aka my metabolism got worse). Like aquaman, I'm sure more people on this forum have been at these levels than you think.

Whats your weight, stats and all that ?
Did you eat 1300 kcal EVERYDAY for 3-4 months? what was your start weight, end weight. Bodyfat %, gender, activity level, nutrition etc

 

[nikotrope]

Whats your weight, stats and all that ?
Did you eat 1300 kcal EVERYDAY for 3-4 months? what was your start weight, end weight. Bodyfat %, gender, activity level, nutrition etc

I am a male, 29 years old, 165cm tall. I ate 1300kcal (tracked rigorously) with one bigger day once a week (which was less than 2000kcal). I only ate milk, fruit and a bit of meat. I was never hungry. My start weight was around 83kg and I finished at 75kg. I didn't know my bf at the time but probably started at 30% bf. I was lifting small weights several times a week and walk 5km daily on average.

Nowadays I eat the same things but can't eat LESS than 2000kcal without being very very hungry (I raised my metabolism in 2014 by lifting bigger weights and eating more, my temp and pulse are far better, my health too).

 

[tara]

Sure everbody has had some days where they eat few calories, but not 6 months in a row. People love to lie and forget those 8000 kcal days that had in between the few days there where restricting calories.
Then they think oh i have terrible metabolism, i eat so little etc etc

I would like it if you stop dismissing other people's experience just because it is different than you own.
Calling people who report different experience liars is rude.

 

[RPDiciple]

tara: Well my own experience and the science is the only thing i have to base something on. Everytime obese people or people that cant loose weight have been tested on all the programs i have watched or the scientific studies that has been done. The people have lied about their caloric intake and lost weight when they have been observed. Usually obese people misscalculate their calorie intake by 30-40% sometimes more.

Some of them of course does not lie but they just dont know how to calculate or dont have the knowledge and some just "forget" that they ate 200 gram chocolate earlier that day etc.

Anyway of course there are metabolic things out there, we are not machines and that calories in and out are the only way. But for most people that will solve their weight/fat loss problem right away. Then they can start to tweak their foods after that to see what effects it has on their metabolic rate and all that.

I think when people search around on the internet and diagnose themselve they actually cripple themselves. I think to many people give themselves to little credit or just dont want to take the responsibility and try to search for things outsite themselve that has to be the reason they cant fix things. Internet is a curse and a blessing depending on how you use it.

To many people use it to find out whats supposidly wrong with them, and that they have to be that special snowflake that cant do anything when science has proven the opposite in most cases.

 

[Sea]

Since all the people love to bring up the Minnesota Experiement. Have anyone actually read the experiement?
Those men where STARVING, like clinicly starving. I can guarantee you that 99,9% of the people on this forum and in general have never been CLOSE to what those men where put through.

1560 calories per day ... I'm sure a lot of people on this board have been at or below that.

Ps every post I've seen of yours ... you sound like an a$$hole

1560 kcal where did that come from?
Sure everbody has had some days where they eat few calories, but not 6 months in a row. People love to lie and forget those 8000 kcal days that had in between the few days there where restricting calories.
Then they think oh i have terrible metabolism, i eat so little etc etc

1560 calories comes from the Minnesota Starvation Experiment which you clearly never bothered reading. Seems like all we should expect from someone who thinks Ray Peat advocates for caloric restriction, when the central tenet of his research is to avoid the stress metabolism which is activated by caloric restriction.

 

[gummybear]

Ray likes to paint curvy women so that must tell us something

Swiggity swooty i'm coming for that booty