Hello all,
I purchased a "Care Lamps" Derma Red Plus p300 LED red light device that emits 630 & 660nm red and 830 & 850nm near infrared in March 2021. I purchased this for use on the face and neck (thyroid), but also used it on the testes after seeing that red light may have positive effects on testosterone / virility (every guy wants to be a stud).
In the description, it states:
Irradiance
• 146 mW/cm2 at 6"
• 99 mW/cm2 at 12"
• 63 mW/cm2 at 18"
• 46 mW/cm2 at 24"
• 30 mW/cm2 at 30"
• 23 mW/cm2 at 36"
I cannot for the life of me remember how long I used it for. But I would guess I was 6 inches away, (146mW/cm^2 !!) for up to 10 minutes at a time, and may have done this semi-regularly for up to 6 months.
I stopped through a combination of laziness + not seeing much positive effect (in any area). I also recall seeing that near infrared could be damaging to the testicles - this was a warning to me not to do that - it didn't worry me too much at the time, but I just stopped straight away once I read about the possibility.
However, AT LEAST over the past 18 months, I have not had a very strong libido. I *can* get erections, but I am much less virile than I was say 3 years ago / through my 20s. I am now wondering if this near infrared light exposure (at a pretty strong dose of 850nm, if I understand correctly) may have done some real damage... and am also wondering if any damage to the testicles may have led to some of my other unpleasant symptoms that seemed to appear / worsen through 2021 (hair thinning on the crown, premature ejaculation etc. which I have spoken about in other threads).
For reference, this was the rat study where the damage was seen (it has been posted here before, I'm sure many of you have seen it):
The study says:
(1) "an 808-nm diode [laser was] irradiated to the testes at an intensity of 360 J/cm2 /day (200 mW × 30 min) for five days. This was followed by the measurement of the depth of tissue penetration, that of serum T level and histopathological examination. Our results showed that the rate of tissue penetration was significantly higher in the 808 nm wavelength group as compared with the 670 nm wavelength group (P<0.05)"
(2) It was at this level of intensity that the damage occurred. I'm sure many of you have seen this photo:
"In the 808 nm wavelength group, there were such findings as an atrophy of the seminiferous tubules, disarrangement of sertoli cells, generation of giant multinucleated bodies and other deformities. It is apparent that the adverse effects occurred but serum T level was not increased following a 5- day course of irradiation with an 808-nm wavelength at n intensity of 360 J/cm2 /day."
Now, I am not a physicist. I don't know much about light-waves, energy mW / Joules etc, or laser vs. LED. But is converting mW/cm^2 to J/cm^2 done via the following method?:
146 mW/cm^2 * 600 seconds (10 minutes) = 84,000 mJ/cm^2 = 84 J/cm^2 - yes, this is not as high as the 360 J/cm^2 in the study, but still pretty high, no??
Again, I have no idea about light-waves, their intensities, their concentrations etc. and how to translate / convert energy etc. etc. but I'm very concerned that this may have caused serious damage. The worst part is that the study doesn't seem to talk about whether the damage was permanent, or if it was just a temporary thing i.e. "yes, it may have killed some sperm / caused some over-heating, but there is unlikely to be any long-term issue"... very confused, and pretty worried.
Questions:
(1) Might I have caused permanent damage? Would answers be able to cite specific studies / tests that are out there?
(2) Have I converted the mW / J etc. correctly? Is the laser vs. LED a factor in damage - i.e. is it possible that the damage was only seen due to it being a concentrated laser? Why or why not?
(3) Might my current lower libido / lower energy / lower erection quality be a result of this? Or am I just clutching at straws / seeing correlations and the problem is actually much deeper...
(4) How would I even test for optimal / appropriate testicle function? Testosterone Blood Test? Semen Analysis / Fertility Test? Definitely no chance of a biopsy like the above...
Additional Info:
- I had my testosterone measured in October 2021 at c. 650-700ng/dL - this was after I had been using the NIR light for a good six months. In fact, I may have even stopped using it by this point. I have also just had a blood test to re-check this as at today, I suspect it will be worse because I feel terrible these days... I will update soon.
- I had a fertility test in 2019 strictly out of curiosity - all was functioning well. Not sure if I should get another one to test any damage...
Thanks in advance for any advice and insight.
Best regards.
I purchased a "Care Lamps" Derma Red Plus p300 LED red light device that emits 630 & 660nm red and 830 & 850nm near infrared in March 2021. I purchased this for use on the face and neck (thyroid), but also used it on the testes after seeing that red light may have positive effects on testosterone / virility (every guy wants to be a stud).
In the description, it states:
Irradiance
• 146 mW/cm2 at 6"
• 99 mW/cm2 at 12"
• 63 mW/cm2 at 18"
• 46 mW/cm2 at 24"
• 30 mW/cm2 at 30"
• 23 mW/cm2 at 36"
I cannot for the life of me remember how long I used it for. But I would guess I was 6 inches away, (146mW/cm^2 !!) for up to 10 minutes at a time, and may have done this semi-regularly for up to 6 months.
I stopped through a combination of laziness + not seeing much positive effect (in any area). I also recall seeing that near infrared could be damaging to the testicles - this was a warning to me not to do that - it didn't worry me too much at the time, but I just stopped straight away once I read about the possibility.
However, AT LEAST over the past 18 months, I have not had a very strong libido. I *can* get erections, but I am much less virile than I was say 3 years ago / through my 20s. I am now wondering if this near infrared light exposure (at a pretty strong dose of 850nm, if I understand correctly) may have done some real damage... and am also wondering if any damage to the testicles may have led to some of my other unpleasant symptoms that seemed to appear / worsen through 2021 (hair thinning on the crown, premature ejaculation etc. which I have spoken about in other threads).
For reference, this was the rat study where the damage was seen (it has been posted here before, I'm sure many of you have seen it):
The study says:
(1) "an 808-nm diode [laser was] irradiated to the testes at an intensity of 360 J/cm2 /day (200 mW × 30 min) for five days. This was followed by the measurement of the depth of tissue penetration, that of serum T level and histopathological examination. Our results showed that the rate of tissue penetration was significantly higher in the 808 nm wavelength group as compared with the 670 nm wavelength group (P<0.05)"
(2) It was at this level of intensity that the damage occurred. I'm sure many of you have seen this photo:
"In the 808 nm wavelength group, there were such findings as an atrophy of the seminiferous tubules, disarrangement of sertoli cells, generation of giant multinucleated bodies and other deformities. It is apparent that the adverse effects occurred but serum T level was not increased following a 5- day course of irradiation with an 808-nm wavelength at n intensity of 360 J/cm2 /day."
Now, I am not a physicist. I don't know much about light-waves, energy mW / Joules etc, or laser vs. LED. But is converting mW/cm^2 to J/cm^2 done via the following method?:
146 mW/cm^2 * 600 seconds (10 minutes) = 84,000 mJ/cm^2 = 84 J/cm^2 - yes, this is not as high as the 360 J/cm^2 in the study, but still pretty high, no??
Again, I have no idea about light-waves, their intensities, their concentrations etc. and how to translate / convert energy etc. etc. but I'm very concerned that this may have caused serious damage. The worst part is that the study doesn't seem to talk about whether the damage was permanent, or if it was just a temporary thing i.e. "yes, it may have killed some sperm / caused some over-heating, but there is unlikely to be any long-term issue"... very confused, and pretty worried.
Questions:
(1) Might I have caused permanent damage? Would answers be able to cite specific studies / tests that are out there?
(2) Have I converted the mW / J etc. correctly? Is the laser vs. LED a factor in damage - i.e. is it possible that the damage was only seen due to it being a concentrated laser? Why or why not?
(3) Might my current lower libido / lower energy / lower erection quality be a result of this? Or am I just clutching at straws / seeing correlations and the problem is actually much deeper...
(4) How would I even test for optimal / appropriate testicle function? Testosterone Blood Test? Semen Analysis / Fertility Test? Definitely no chance of a biopsy like the above...
Additional Info:
- I had my testosterone measured in October 2021 at c. 650-700ng/dL - this was after I had been using the NIR light for a good six months. In fact, I may have even stopped using it by this point. I have also just had a blood test to re-check this as at today, I suspect it will be worse because I feel terrible these days... I will update soon.
- I had a fertility test in 2019 strictly out of curiosity - all was functioning well. Not sure if I should get another one to test any damage...
Thanks in advance for any advice and insight.
Best regards.