Oysters, copper, graying and allergies

[Motif]

if oyster causes low copper, and liver causes copper excess, i dont see why they shouldnt be paired together in moderation

Yeah I really wonder what a diet should look like for a good balance.

 

[redsun]

if oyster causes low copper, and liver causes copper excess, i dont see why they shouldnt be paired together in moderation

Liver needs to be consumed before you consume oysters so the copper can be absorbed. For example:

Monday: eat liver
Tuesday: eat oysters
Wednesday and for a few days later very little copper will be absorbed in the gut. If you flip monday and tuesday you will absorb almost no copper from the liver.

Copper excess is dependent on how much copper you are actually getting from the liver.

 

[Cloudhands]

Liver needs to be consumed before you consume oysters so the copper can be absorbed. For example:

Monday: eat liver
Tuesday: eat oysters
Wednesday and for a few days later very little copper will be absorbed in the gut. If you flip monday and tuesday you will absorb almost no copper from the liver.

Copper excess is dependent on how much copper you are actually getting from the liver.

whered you learn about the absorption timing of zinc and copper? its very interesting

 

[redsun]

whered you learn about the absorption timing of zinc and copper? its very interesting

This is the exact way zinc inhibits copper absorption, by MT expression. If you consume the copper (liver) before the zinc (oysters) you can get both, but not the other way around. You would need to wait days after eating or consuming a large amount of zinc (which oysters have) if you want to absorb a significant amount of copper. This is how zinc causes copper deficiency despite normal copper intake. You can find this anywhere but you arent going to find many sources that say what I said exactly.

 

[Motif]

This is the exact way zinc inhibits copper absorption, by MT expression. If you consume the copper (liver) before the zinc (oysters) you can get both, but not the other way around. You would need to wait days after eating or consuming a large amount of zinc (which oysters have) if you want to absorb a significant amount of copper. This is how zinc causes copper deficiency despite normal copper intake. You can find this anywhere but you arent going to find many sources that say what I said exactly.

How does your diet look like to get a good balance ?

 

[Cloudhands]

This is the exact way zinc inhibits copper absorption, by MT expression. If you consume the copper (liver) before the zinc (oysters) you can get both, but not the other way around. You would need to wait days after eating or consuming a large amount of zinc (which oysters have) if you want to absorb a significant amount of copper. This is how zinc causes copper deficiency despite normal copper intake. You can find this anywhere but you arent going to find many sources that say what I said exactly.

i recall chris masterjohn saying that 2 oysters is the max amount of zinc that can be absorbed at a time, and it takes effect for 2/3 of a day from there after, not that hes automatically correct, but i need to comb thru some research myself, thanks for giving me some good pointers

 

[Cloudhands]

monday - 4oz liver
tuesday - nothing
wednesday - 4oz liver
thursday - 1 oyster
friday - 1 oyster
saturday - 1 oyster
sunday - nothing

 

[redsun]

monday - 4oz liver
tuesday - nothing
wednesday - 4oz liver
thursday - 1 oyster
friday - 1 oyster
saturday - 1 oyster
sunday - nothing

Ok I can see how what I said could be confusing. What I said was assuming you eat several oysters in one go. You can easily consume 40mg of zinc from just a few oysters in one sitting. When taking in total, if the total zinc intake for a day is around or greater than 40mg (from oysters and from other foods eaten that same day), you need to wait a few days to absorb a lot of copper from something like liver. If you are eating 1 oyster at a time and your total zinc intake daily is 30mg or less average, this is not going strongly inhibit copper absorption for days unlike eating a large amount of oysters or supplementing a lot of zinc.

What I said was based on eating several or more oysters in one go. If you eat 1 at a time this won't increase daily zinc intake that high, so it doesnt apply in this case.

 

[aniciete]

You really should eat liver only very rarely if copper and ceruloplasmin is normal. Oyster in excess promotes copper deficiency because the zinc content is insane and will block any copper absorption from the foods you consume for days after you consume it. You do this chronically, copper will be depleted. Someone who needs copper (is deficient, has low ceruloplasmin) should not touch oysters because of this and they should avoid zinc supplements as well which block copper absorption.

So red meat would be a better option than liver/oysters? It seems like the high copper in liver and the high zinc in oysters can be problematic in the long run.

 

[redsun]

So red meat would be a better option than liver/oysters? It seems like the high copper in liver and the high zinc in oysters can be problematic in the long run.

Chronic consumption of liver could manifest into vitamin A toxicity symptoms or low histamine due to massive copper content. Chronically high zinc intake via oysters or supplements can lead to copper deficiency and iron deficiency due to blocking absorption (and copper deficiency leading to iron deficient like symptoms). Too much of both and lack of iron can lead to iron deficiency.

This is why its good to get normal amounts of vital minerals daily and only consume liver and/or oysters if you know for a fact that zinc or copper is low or otherwise consume them very rarely. Normal amounts is 15-30mg zinc daily, 1-3mg copper daily, and 20mg+ iron daily. Assuming the status of your metals is already good this is the best way long-term to make sure you get enough of each but not too much of any.

Red meats and meat in general has decent amount of most trace minerals except copper while not having very high amounts of anything. This is ideal long-term.

 

[aniciete]

Chronic consumption of liver could manifest into vitamin A toxicity symptoms or low histamine due to massive copper content. Chronically high zinc intake via oysters or supplements can lead to copper deficiency and iron deficiency due to blocking absorption (and copper deficiency leading to iron deficient like symptoms). Too much of both and lack of iron can lead to iron deficiency.

This is why its good to get normal amounts of vital minerals daily and only consume liver and/or oysters if you know for a fact that zinc or copper is low or otherwise consume them very rarely. Normal amounts is 15-30mg zinc daily, 1-3mg copper daily, and 20mg+ iron daily. Assuming the status of your metals is already good this is the best way long-term to make sure you get enough of each but not too much of any.

Thank you.

 

[Motif]

Chronic consumption of liver could manifest into vitamin A toxicity symptoms or low histamine due to massive copper content. Chronically high zinc intake via oysters or supplements can lead to copper deficiency and iron deficiency due to blocking absorption (and copper deficiency leading to iron deficient like symptoms). Too much of both and lack of iron can lead to iron deficiency.

This is why its good to get normal amounts of vital minerals daily and only consume liver and/or oysters if you know for a fact that zinc or copper is low or otherwise consume them very rarely. Normal amounts is 15-30mg zinc daily, 1-3mg copper daily, and 20mg+ iron daily. Assuming the status of your metals is already good this is the best way long-term to make sure you get enough of each but not too much of any.

Red meats and meat in general has decent amount of most trace minerals except copper while not having very high amounts of anything. This is ideal long-term.

Ok, so average Díet with dairy and some meat is enough for zinc but not for copper.

How do you get your 1-3 mg copper daily?


Edit: I’ll get serum copper and whole blood zinc tested, is this ok ? Or whole blood copper too?

 

[redsun]

Ok, so average Díet with dairy and some meat is enough for zinc but not for copper.

How do you get your 1-3 mg copper daily?


Edit: I’ll get serum copper and whole blood zinc tested, is this ok ? Or whole blood copper too?

Ceruloplasmin should be tested as well. Starches especially potatoes, fruits, vegetables provide copper. So basically plant foods that an individual can digest are good for copper.

 

[Motif]

Ceruloplasmin should be tested as well. Starches especially potatoes, fruits, vegetables provide copper. So basically plant foods that an individual can digest are good for copper.

Thanks!

So serum copper and cp and zinc whole blood.

 

[Dr. B]

Chronic consumption of liver could manifest into vitamin A toxicity symptoms or low histamine due to massive copper content. Chronically high zinc intake via oysters or supplements can lead to copper deficiency and iron deficiency due to blocking absorption (and copper deficiency leading to iron deficient like symptoms). Too much of both and lack of iron can lead to iron deficiency.

This is why its good to get normal amounts of vital minerals daily and only consume liver and/or oysters if you know for a fact that zinc or copper is low or otherwise consume them very rarely. Normal amounts is 15-30mg zinc daily, 1-3mg copper daily, and 20mg+ iron daily. Assuming the status of your metals is already good this is the best way long-term to make sure you get enough of each but not too much of any.

Red meats and meat in general has decent amount of most trace minerals except copper while not having very high amounts of anything. This is ideal long-term.

why so much iron? Peat wants iron at 5mg to 6mg daily
isnt there more that can impact these, like vitamin Cs effect on iron and copper
manganeses effect on iron and copper
molybdenum affects copper
possibly chromium

 

[redsun]

why so much iron? Peat wants iron at 5mg to 6mg daily
isnt there more that can impact these, like vitamin Cs effect on iron and copper
manganeses effect on iron and copper
molybdenum affects copper
possibly chromium

~20mg takes into account absorption rate of iron which is quite low, absorption inhibitors in the diet, interaction with other minerals reducing absorption. Thats around the number most people get daily if they eat a wide variety of foods. You are not actually absorbing anywhere this much.

 

[Motif]

@redsun

My zinc serum and whole blood levels are fine now. Did not take any zinc for two weeks.

My copper serum and whole blood levels are low and ceruloplasmin too. Slightly deficient in all of them.


I don’t know how to get them up. I think there’s really an issue with absorption or something.
I tried to get the levels up years ago and didn’t take any zinc. Still nothing happened.

 

[redsun]

@redsun

My zinc serum and whole blood levels are fine now. Did not take any zinc for two weeks.

My copper serum and whole blood levels are low and ceruloplasmin too. Slightly deficient in all of them.


I don’t know how to get them up. I think there’s really an issue with absorption or something.
I tried to get the levels up years ago and didn’t take any zinc. Still nothing happened.

Your zinc is all good. But you need to try the way I described to you a little while ago to raise copper and ceruloplasmin. You need to do this for probably months and then test copper again. Normal amounts of zinc from food, and high copper intake from liver and copper containing foods.

You do absorb copper but you need to be patient. We are already know there is an absorption issue, zinc raises metallothionein in the gut causing copper to be trapped in the gut and not get absorbed. You may have an gut problem on top of this which may reduce copper absorption further. Protein intake increases copper absorption this is why liver which is literally lean protein is good for getting copper.

I remember having this conversation with you that you either had copper deficiency or wilson's. And wilson's was ruled out and considering your history of zinc supplementation, copper deficiency as the cause of your low blood copper and low ceruloplasmin is more likely. Exercise can also raise ceruloplasmin if you do it regularly.

 

[Dr. B]

Your zinc is all good. But you need to try the way I described to you a little while ago to raise copper and ceruloplasmin. You need to do this for probably months and then test copper again. Normal amounts of zinc from food, and high copper intake from liver and copper containing foods.

You do absorb copper but you need to be patient. We are already know there is an absorption issue, zinc raises metallothionein in the gut causing copper to be trapped in the gut and not get absorbed. You may have an gut problem on top of this which may reduce copper absorption further. Protein intake increases copper absorption this is why liver which is literally lean protein is good for getting copper.

I remember having this conversation with you that you either had copper deficiency or wilson's. And wilson's was ruled out and considering your history of zinc supplementation, copper deficiency as the cause of your low blood copper and low ceruloplasmin is more likely. Exercise can also raise ceruloplasmin if you do it regularly.

doesnt vitamin A increase ceruloplasmin

 

[Motif]

Your zinc is all good. But you need to try the way I described to you a little while ago to raise copper and ceruloplasmin. You need to do this for probably months and then test copper again. Normal amounts of zinc from food, and high copper intake from liver and copper containing foods.

You do absorb copper but you need to be patient. We are already know there is an absorption issue, zinc raises metallothionein in the gut causing copper to be trapped in the gut and not get absorbed. You may have an gut problem on top of this which may reduce copper absorption further. Protein intake increases copper absorption this is why liver which is literally lean protein is good for getting copper.

I remember having this conversation with you that you either had copper deficiency or wilson's. And wilson's was ruled out and considering your history of zinc supplementation, copper deficiency as the cause of your low blood copper and low ceruloplasmin is more likely. Exercise can also raise ceruloplasmin if you do it regularly.

Thanks.
I need to try for a bit longer.

Do I have to eat copper rich with protein combined or can I eat it separated for that effect?

Would it be harmful to take 3-4 mg of zinc when I don’t hit the rda with food?