People without internal monologue

[ChadGPT]

Have you ever met someone like this and what were they like? Are they super low stress since serotonin causes internal chatter? I saw a video about one and she was very in the moment and didn’t think about the past. Should an optimal human not have any internal monologue?

 

[LLight]

Can you think without an internal monologue?

 

[chococat]

Can you think without an internal monologue?

I’m inclined to say yes. It’s probably more instinctive thought. Words are a tool not everything has to be abstracted through them.
It’s the probably difference between noticing the fullness in your bladder and walking to the bathroom vs noticing the fullness in your bladder, thinking “I have to pee”, and then walking to the bathroom.

 

[chococat]

Have you ever met someone like this and what were they like? Are they super low stress since serotonin causes internal chatter? I saw a video about one and she was very in the moment and didn’t think about the past. Should an optimal human not have any internal monologue?

I’ve never met someone like this to my knowledge ( but then again, how do you even brooch this in a conversation lol) . I imagine this is pretty hard to pull off even for the healthiest person considering pretty much everyone is literate constantly processing written information .
Should an optimal human not have internal monologue? If you ask someone like BAP no. But personally I don’t think there is an optimal human in regards to mental orientation. There’s baseline mental health and clarity but beyond that it’s normal and necessary for some people to have higher stress than others, be more or less neurotic etc …

 

[Greyfox]

Can you think without an internal monologue?

You can think in images. I have a problem with excessive subvocalisation but every now and then, when stress is low, or with cyproheptadine I notice the emergence of image-based thought.
This isn't optimal for communication but I imagine it's brilliant for people like Nikola Tesla who could construct entire experiments in his mind before getting to the prototype phase.
I wrote about this in a recent post.

Cortisol, Serotonin, Vision and Imagination.

When I get stess and serotonin low enough (meditation, sometimes cypro), I notice the emergence of mental imagery. 99% of the time my consciousness is afflicted with incessant subvocalisation. Like reading a book in your head. Words are flowing through my mind most of the day. I also don't...

raypeatforum.com

I think this side of the mind is more energetically expensive which is why it may be harder to maintain and so the verbal part of the brain takes over to be used for rationality.

 

[lvysaur]

I can imagine voices if I want to, but that's not an automatic part of my thinking, and I think less efficiently if I try to do it (imagine taking an exam while whistling)

I also have very high spatial/imaging ability

 

[Runenight201]

There has to be some quality neuroscience on this! anyone got any sources?

 

[Greyfox]

Has anyone tried a sensory deprivation tank? I've heard that the absence of external stimuli can cause the brain to trip. Much like Lisa in this clip.

View: https://youtu.be/eSmt7iElrNk

Also characters like Sherlock, Hannibal Lecter make use of a mind palace as a way of accessing memories in an accurate and organised way via image processing.

View: https://youtu.be/co5rbkyRXOo

 

[chickasawlane]

I don’t believe we’re supposed to have, or live, by an internal monolouge. The mind is a tool, so any thinking that needs to be done should be done, but then once that situation is over, you should come back to the present and just live.

From a Christian perspective, any internal thoughts and chatter is all ego, all from the devil. I know a lot of people on the forum here don’t believe in God, let alone the devil, so hear me out on this.

In the Garden of Eden, before Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge, they were one with God, pure consciousness within His presence. There was no need for thinking, or believing in an identity, they just existed. When they ate from the tree, that severed the connection and allowed the devil to enter their minds and tempt them with thoughts and ideas, thus spawning the ego. Some esoteric knowledge says that the devil communicates through thoughts via theta waves in the mind. This is why we are supposed to be still and know God, and relax enough, to allow our minds to see how these thoughts and monologues run rampant in our mind, and we identify with it unknowingly.

If you end up learning how to separate from the chatter and just let it pass without any judgement, I guarantee you’ll experience a new way of living. Identifying this from a physiological perspective can help (knowing when corti/sero/estro etc is high) and may give temporary relief, but when things go hay wire, the thoughts and chatter always come back. To me, breaking free from that inner monolouge is the beginning of freedom.

 

[lvysaur]

When they ate from the tree, that severed the connection and allowed the devil to enter their minds and tempt them with thoughts and ideas, thus spawning the ego.

I don't believe this, even lions and bison kill each other over mates and control. The "ego" is fundamental to all life

 

[Greyfox]

I don’t believe we’re supposed to have, or live, by an internal monolouge. The mind is a tool, so any thinking that needs to be done should be done, but then once that situation is over, you should come back to the present and just live.

From a Christian perspective, any internal thoughts and chatter is all ego, all from the devil. I know a lot of people on the forum here don’t believe in God, let alone the devil, so hear me out on this.

In the Garden of Eden, before Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge, they were one with God, pure consciousness within His presence. There was no need for thinking, or believing in an identity, they just existed. When they ate from the tree, that severed the connection and allowed the devil to enter their minds and tempt them with thoughts and ideas, thus spawning the ego. Some esoteric knowledge says that the devil communicates through thoughts via theta waves in the mind. This is why we are supposed to be still and know God, and relax enough, to allow our minds to see how these thoughts and monologues run rampant in our mind, and we identify with it unknowingly.

If you end up learning how to separate from the chatter and just let it pass without any judgement, I guarantee you’ll experience a new way of living. Identifying this from a physiological perspective can help (knowing when corti/sero/estro etc is high) and may give temporary relief, but when things go hay wire, the thoughts and chatter always come back. To me, breaking free from that inner monolouge is the beginning of freedom.

I believe Ray himself has advocated for spending time away from rumination for the sake of health. I've also noticed an unusual sense of peace from observing mental imagery in my mind but it's really difficult to fully grab a firm hold on the feeling.

 

[Regina]

I don’t believe we’re supposed to have, or live, by an internal monolouge. The mind is a tool, so any thinking that needs to be done should be done, but then once that situation is over, you should come back to the present and just live.

From a Christian perspective, any internal thoughts and chatter is all ego, all from the devil. I know a lot of people on the forum here don’t believe in God, let alone the devil, so hear me out on this.

In the Garden of Eden, before Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge, they were one with God, pure consciousness within His presence. There was no need for thinking, or believing in an identity, they just existed. When they ate from the tree, that severed the connection and allowed the devil to enter their minds and tempt them with thoughts and ideas, thus spawning the ego. Some esoteric knowledge says that the devil communicates through thoughts via theta waves in the mind. This is why we are supposed to be still and know God, and relax enough, to allow our minds to see how these thoughts and monologues run rampant in our mind, and we identify with it unknowingly.

If you end up learning how to separate from the chatter and just let it pass without any judgement, I guarantee you’ll experience a new way of living. Identifying this from a physiological perspective can help (knowing when corti/sero/estro etc is high) and may give temporary relief, but when things go hay wire, the thoughts and chatter always come back. To me, breaking free from that inner monolouge is the beginning of freedom.

 

[Tidal]

Well there are a sizable number of people who are suffering from blank mind and have lost their internal monologue completely after taking psychiatric medication.

My internal monologue has become damaged after a bad reaction to several substances and is heavily muffled to the point words sound distorted in my mind. I have to move facial and internal muscles to sound words out in my head. It's very uncomfortable

 

[Greyfox]

Well there are a sizable number of people who are suffering from blank mind and have lost their internal monologue completely after taking psychiatric medication.

My internal monologue has become damaged after a bad reaction to several substances and is heavily muffled to the point words sound distorted in my mind. I have to move facial and internal muscles to sound words out in my head. It's very uncomfortable

Which medications/ substances cause this?

 

[nomoreketones]

I don't have an internal monologue outside of daydreams. My internal monologue in daydreams has always taken the form of me talking to other people. Just expressing my ideas, they don't talk back. My daydreams are auditory without much of a visual component.

I don't have a mind's eye but most people do. Everyone is different. Different doesn't mean abnormal.

Besides conversations in daydreams, my thinking isn't in words or images. I definitely have thoughts and ideas but I would not know how to describe the form the thoughts and ideas take with words since the thoughts/ideas are neither visual nor auditory. It requires a lot of effort to translate my thoughts into words which makes me prefer written communication over talking because I can take my time when writing.

 

[WombOfFuturity]

 

[TheSir]

I think this side of the mind is more energetically expensive which is why it may be harder to maintain and so the verbal part of the brain takes over to be used for rationality.

Without forming an argument about which one is objectively true, in my own experience maintaining an inner monologue is the more energetically expensive mode. When the NPC meme first gained popularity, I started practicing internal verbalization of all of my thoughts, as I quickly noticed that I rarely verbalize anything at all.

Soon I discovered that no matter how much I did it, it never stuck. Whenever I stopped paying attention, I would drop the verbalization and shift to some pre-linguistic, visual-intuitive and lighting-fast mode of thought. In essence, though such verbalization was a fun exercise, I felt like it was giving me no benefits and was only slowing down my thinking. The dilemma was that if I already knew how a sentence would end and what kind of concepts it would include by the time I started it, then why start it at all?

Interestingly, if I try to verbalize what I'm reading, my attention will shift to that and I won't retain what I read. So verbalization is an overall hindrance and I can't seem to turn it into anything else, which bothers me.

 

[LLight]

@chococat Yes I thought about needs like peeing. There is no need to necessarily use words to do it. I was wondering about having a reasoning in your mind which may involve logical steps.

@Greyfox Indeed, images can be a form of thought. By the way, I think I have issues forming images in my mind like some (most of people?) can, I don't remember what is the name of this "syndrome". I haven't taken any drugs that could cause that in my life I believe (EDIT: I took finasteride ), but I've heard some people could lose this ability, for example with post SSRI syndrome or post finasteride syndrome.

I wonder if inner monologue cannot be considered as a form of memory of the thoughts which allows the mind to think about something else, like written language.

[2201.11903] Chain-of-Thought Prompting Elicits Reasoning in Large Language Models

 

[Greyfox]

Without forming an argument about which one is objectively true, in my own experience maintaining an inner monologue is the more energetically expensive mode. When the NPC meme first gained popularity, I started practicing internal verbalization of all of my thoughts, as I quickly noticed that I rarely verbalize anything at all.

Soon I discovered that no matter how much I did it, it never stuck. Whenever I stopped paying attention, I would drop the verbalization and shift to some pre-linguistic, visual-intuitive and lighting-fast mode of thought. In essence, though such verbalization was a fun exercise, I felt like it was giving me no benefits and was only slowing down my thinking. The dilemma was that if I already knew how a sentence would end and what kind of concepts it would include by the time I started it, then why start it at all?

Interestingly, if I try to verbalize what I'm reading, my attention will shift to that and I won't retain what I read. So verbalization is an overall hindrance and I can't seem to turn it into anything else, which bothers me.

Interesting. Seems we have complete opposite ways of thinking. The thing you described about intentionally verbalising is my default way of thinking without effort. It constantly streams through me and I now realise could be a source of stress and tension. "Energetically expensive" may just mean that using the brain's least used regions is more costly due to its lack of efficiency. I know the more connections a brain has, the more efficient it becomes. It seems I have been feeding the verbal region of my brain for decades and only recently came to the conclusion that other people may not think this way. I'm interested to know how you read at all without verbalisation? Do you just scan the sentence with your eyes and form images? Also. Any tips on how to engage the visual part? I've managed to observe it at low stress states but it is as fleeting to me as the linguistic side is to you. I can't make that part stick for me despite how peaceful it makes me feel.

 

[Greyfox]

@chococat Yes I thought about needs like peeing. There is no need to necessarily use words to do it. I was wondering about having a reasoning in your mind which may involve logical steps.

@Greyfox Indeed, images can be a form of thought. By the way, I think I have issues forming images in my mind like some (most of people?) can, I don't remember what is the name of this "syndrome". I haven't taken any drugs that could cause that in my life I believe (EDIT: I took finasteride ), but I've heard some people could lose this ability, for example with post SSRI syndrome or post finasteride syndrome.

I wonder if inner monologue cannot be considered as a form of memory of the thoughts which allows the mind to think about something else, like written language.

[2201.11903] Chain-of-Thought Prompting Elicits Reasoning in Large Language Models

I have the same issue. Though recently I've been doing semen retention and noticed an improved ability to visualise people's faces in accurate detail. Nothing too powerful. Just a lot closer to my visual abilities when I was younger. I feel like estrogen, serotonin and stress are involved. Women seem to be very verbal creatures naturally. It seems to make up a large part of their social needs in the form of gossip and emoting their feelings. It's a bit of a stereotype that women can't seem to stop talking.