Progest-e And Immune Function

[sele]

How does Progest-E effect our immune function? Does it suppress or does it excite our immune function?

This came to mind when I was using 3 drops of Progest-E for 5 times a day. My periodontitis (bacterial infection of the gums) flared up. There was pain and swelling in my gums. I was wondering if bacterial growth increases due to progesterone suppressing the immune.

Oh, one more thing, what's with Progest-E and cystitis?

 

[HDD]

"Experiments have shown that progesterone relieves anxiety, improves memory, protects brain cells, and even prevents epileptic seizures. It promotes respiration, and has been used to correct emphysema. In the circulatory system, it prevents bulging veins by increasing the tone of blood vessels, and improves the efficiency of the heart. It reverses many of the signs of aging in the skin, and promotes healthy bone growth. It can relieve many types of arthritis, and helps a variety of immunological problems."

"In fact, it is the most protective hormone the body produces, and the large amounts that are produced during pregnancy result from the developing baby's need for protection from the stressful environment. Normally, the brain contains a very high concentration of progesterone, reflecting its protective function for that most important organ. The thymus gland, the key organ of our immune system"


"Progesterone can, without estrogen, create the uterine conditions for implantation of an embryo (Piccini, 2005, progesterone induces LIF; Sherwin, et al., 2004, LIF can substitute for estrogen), and it has many other features that can be considered apart from estrogen, such as its regulation of salts, energy metabolism, protein metabolism, immunity, stress, and inflammation, but without understanding its opposition to estrogen, there will be no coherent understanding of progesterone's biological meaning."



Estrogen can cause ovarian cysts to develop, and can contribute to the development of skin tags and moles. Its effects on the urethra might help with incontinence, but it can cause problems with the bladder muscle, and cystitis.
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1035&start=30



I know this isn't directly answering your questions but it might help. If progesterone supplementation is helping to increase your metabolism, you may need to increase your nutrition. Logging your daily food into cronometer can give you insight. Getting adequate protein is important.

 

[sele]

Thanks Diane.
I have read all the articles written by RP on progesterone. My understanding is that estrogen is the bad cop and progesterone is the good cop. That's fine. The part I don't get is that my gums have no swelling and my urine doesn't burn till I start using Progest-E. Progesterone is supposed to reduce inflammation not cause it. This is quite baffling.
All the people on the forum have only good things to say after using progesterone. Am I the only one experiencing this? Certainly, there must be someone that knows the science behind this. I wanted to ask RP but, alas, he's unable to take emails.

 

[sunmountain]

Perhaps my experience might help. When I came onto this forum mid-May, it was because I was having a lot of symptoms from taking 3 drops progest-e for a few days. I was having terrible joint pain and fatigue after starting progest-e.

Once I started posting here, I learned first off, that I was not eating enough (1300 calories/day) and needed to drastically increase that, which I did over the ensuing weeks. I also followed the other diet recommendations. Eventually I reintroduced progest-e. But this time, I did not start with 3 drops, I squirted a whole line of it along my gums, three sometimes four times a day. I did not have the old joint and fatigue symptoms with this approach, and my estrogen symptoms disappeared and I started feeling better.

 

[HDD]

There is a discussion in this thread about progesterone causing gingivitis. Peatarian's replies are very informative.

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=827&p=5159&hilit=Not+taking+enough+progesterone#p5159

 

[HDD]

This is another Peatarian quote from a different thread on progesterone. Since both problems with teeth and cystitis can be etrogen related, this may be why you are experiencing the increase in inflammation.

" I have observed that after a long period of unopposed estrogen it takes a while for progesterone to have any effect. It sometimes even brings out the estrogen symptoms more strongly. Katharina Dalton believed in the receptor theory. It says that the progesterone receptors are blocked during long periods of estrogen dominance and that they cannot 'read' progesterone. Estrogen has to be lowered first. I think that's why using a big amount initially helps. I cannot tell you wether you used enough progesterone or why it didn't work for you if you did. I started with aspirin and vitamin A before using progesterone."

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=227&p=4728&hilit=Katharina+Dalton#p4728

 

[sele]

Thank you, Sunmountain and Diane.

I have read your references and taken your advices on increasing calories and progesterone dosage.

Symptoms seemed to subside. So I thought I should continue using progesterone at the high dose for 2 months regardless of my periods. After my period all hell broke loose. My urine began burning again. My joints began paining. Mentally and physically I am feeling like crap. I did not have these symptoms before using Progest-E.

If all this is caused by estrogen dominance, then why weren't the symptoms present before using progesterone?
I have not changed the dosage. Why is my urine burning after my period? Please help.

 

[HDD]

Thank you, Sunmountain and Diane.

I have read your references and taken your advices on increasing calories and progesterone dosage.

Symptoms seemed to subside. So I thought I should continue using progesterone at the high dose for 2 months regardless of my periods. After my period all hell broke loose. My urine began burning again. My joints began paining. Mentally and physically I am feeling like crap. I did not have these symptoms before using Progest-E.

If all this is caused by estrogen dominance, then why weren't the symptoms present before using progesterone?
I have not changed the dosage. Why is my urine burning after my period? Please help.

Hi,sele,

I don't have an answer to your question. As far as I know, there are no negative effects from progesterone except anesthesia if taking very large amounts. The only negatives that I have read about have to do with needing to take more. I cant remember exactly but I think it has to with with estrogen in tissue. I will try to find more info about this.


Maybe if you put all of your symptoms, diet, supplements in a post it might help someone to have insight into what is going on.

 

[HDD]

"10 to 20 mg is often an effective dose, though people with low thyroid or high estrogen sometimes use 50 to 100 mg per day."


How much are you taking?

Progesterone first draws estrogen out of the tissue and then knocks it out ( will try to find reference for this).

 

[sele]

I appreciate your help, Diane.

Progesterone first draws estrogen out of the tissue and then knocks it out ( will try to find reference for this).

That would be helpful.

Maybe if you put all of your symptoms, diet, supplements in a post it might help someone to have insight into what is going on.

Where should I post it?

I am taking 3 drops for six times a day. I am not sure of the exact dose.

 

[HDD]

Ray Peat wrote:
"An excessive estrogen/progesterone ratio is more generally involved in producing or aggravating symptoms than either a simple excess of estrogen or a deficiency of progesterone, but even this ratio is conditioned by other factors, including age, diet, other steroids, thyroid, and other hormones."

" Since an essential mechanism of progesterone's action involves its opposition to estrogen, smaller amounts are effective when estrogen production is low, and if estrogen is extremely high, even large supplements of progesterone will have no clear effect; in that case, it is essential to regulate estrogen metabolism, by improving the diet, correcting a thyroid deficiency, etc. (Unsaturated fat is antithyroid and synergizes with estrogen.)"



Rayser wrote:
"Many women get the best results when they start on a high dosage of progest-e to disrupt the estrogen dominance. But I think you will have to increase thyroid function and protein intake as well and use niacinamid and aspirin to keep PUFA out of your blood stream."



More to think about from these quotes and post from Ray Peat and forum member Rayser. I will keep looking for a reference to the other post.

You can post your diet and supplements here or start another thread (maybe a log?)

 

[Mittir]

Since progesterone lowers estrogen and estrogen inhibit thyroid hormone
secretion and coversion in the liver, progesteron can increase thyroid function.
If increased thyroid function is not supported by nutrients, especially extra sugar
and repleted glycogen storage, a person can feel worse than before.

It happens to a lot of people who start thyroid hormone without having
sufficient glycogen. I felt really worse when i tried to increase my thyroid
intake with chicken neck soup. I had to scale back on neck soup.
I have to eat a huge amount of nutritious foods and regular liver
to feel good. I eat something every 1-2 hours, snacks and meals.
I have seen how my 2 year old nephew eating all the time.

I have to have 80+ grams of balanced protein, weekly liver, raw carrot salad
regularly to feel good. High dose mixed tocopherol vitamin E helps to lower PUFA damage
and one form of FFA inhibitor (Niacinamide or Aspirin) is almost essential.
I think if there is high endotoxin burden on liver and it can not detoxify all the
estrogen passing through it, then thyroid and progesterone can not do much.

It is lot easier to maintain low metabolic state. It reminds me of Burr's
rat experiment where rats on high PUFA diet did not develop
vitamin B6 deficiency but rats on PUFA free diet did.

If there is a problem burning sugar due to PUFA or vitamin deficiency
increased metabolism can be problematic. B1 deficiency is one of the cause
of low sugar metabolism. B6 is usually deficient in female due to estrogen burden.

Low endotoxin, selenium, B vitamins (especially B1 and B2), T3,
saturated fat, Coffee and niacinamide can improve liver function.
My understanding is that if there is high PUFA storage and digestion is weak
then increasing metabolism is a lot of work.

 

[sele]

Ray Peat wrote:
" Since an essential mechanism of progesterone's action involves its opposition to estrogen, smaller amounts are effective when estrogen production is low, and if estrogen is extremely high, even large supplements of progesterone will have no clear effect; in that case, it is essential to regulate estrogen metabolism, by improving the diet, correcting a thyroid deficiency, etc. (Unsaturated fat is antithyroid and synergizes with estrogen.)"



Rayser wrote:
"Many women get the best results when they start on a high dosage of progest-e to disrupt the estrogen dominance. But I think you will have to increase thyroid function and protein intake as well and use niacinamid and aspirin to keep PUFA out of your blood stream."

Low endotoxin, selenium, B vitamins (especially B1 and B2), T3,
saturated fat, Coffee and niacinamide can improve liver function.
My understanding is that if there is high PUFA storage and digestion is weak
then increasing metabolism is a lot of work.

The more Progest-E I take the lower my temp is dipping. My digestion is definitely weak and I do have high PUFA storage from all the years of taking omega 3. I have started taking the suggested supplements. I just hope it works. Wish me luck.

 

[mt_dreams]

re the original question of progest E & immune. Vitamin E effects the immune system by increasing IL-2 which stimulates T helper 1 cells (Th1) which work in tangent with Th2 cells to protect you (aka your immune system). For anyone who's immune system is currently Th1 dominant, this may be something to keep in mind. It is currently thought that disorders like arhtritis, type 1 diabetes, crohns, alzheimers, hashimotos, etc, is caused from among many other things, an excessively dominant Th1 ... Though I'm sure low thyroid is as much of a problem, if not more.

 

[Waremu]

Since progesterone lowers estrogen and estrogen inhibit thyroid hormone
secretion and coversion in the liver, progesteron can increase thyroid function.
If increased thyroid function is not supported by nutrients, especially extra sugar
and repleted glycogen storage, a person can feel worse than before.

It happens to a lot of people who start thyroid hormone without having
sufficient glycogen. I felt really worse when i tried to increase my thyroid
intake with chicken neck soup. I had to scale back on neck soup.
I have to eat a huge amount of nutritious foods and regular liver
to feel good. I eat something every 1-2 hours, snacks and meals.
I have seen how my 2 year old nephew eating all the time.

I have to have 80+ grams of balanced protein, weekly liver, raw carrot salad
regularly to feel good. High dose mixed tocopherol vitamin E helps to lower PUFA damage
and one form of FFA inhibitor (Niacinamide or Aspirin) is almost essential.
I think if there is high endotoxin burden on liver and it can not detoxify all the
estrogen passing through it, then thyroid and progesterone can not do much.

It is lot easier to maintain low metabolic state. It reminds me of Burr's
rat experiment where rats on high PUFA diet did not develop
vitamin B6 deficiency but rats on PUFA free diet did.

If there is a problem burning sugar due to PUFA or vitamin deficiency
increased metabolism can be problematic. B1 deficiency is one of the cause
of low sugar metabolism. B6 is usually deficient in female due to estrogen burden.

Low endotoxin, selenium, B vitamins (especially B1 and B2), T3,
saturated fat, Coffee and niacinamide can improve liver function.
My understanding is that if there is high PUFA storage and digestion is weak
then increasing metabolism is a lot of work.

Hey Mittir.

I was wondering how you made the chicken neck soup? Do you know how much to take to get a certain amount of thyroid hormone from the chicken thyroid?

 

[lindsay]

I started taking high doses of progest-e when I started taking thyroid and the effects were very positive - I was averaging about a bottle per week though (which is about 400 mg per day). However, I have heard some women say they have negative reactions to progesterone - my friend who was going through fertility treatment said that the progesterone injections she took made her feel terrible.

Anyhow, one thing that's really helped me a lot in the past few months is taking more vitamin E. I found E more beneficial than aspirin when it came to estrogen dominance and I was able to lower my doses of progest-e a bit. Since you say you have a lot of PUFA storage, taking some E might help. I usually take 3 or 4 capsules of 400 IU (of mixed tocopherols) per day - the Swanson brand.

My advice would be to stop taking drops and just start smearing the stuff on your gums. For UT issues, I would recommend cranberry capsules - I have been having trouble following the antibiotics I took in Sept. Cranberry capsules and not eating starch have really helped with that.

 

[johns74]

Thanks Diane.
I have read all the articles written by RP on progesterone. My understanding is that estrogen is the bad cop and progesterone is the good cop. That's fine. The part I don't get is that my gums have no swelling and my urine doesn't burn till I start using Progest-E. Progesterone is supposed to reduce inflammation not cause it. This is quite baffling.
All the people on the forum have only good things to say after using progesterone. Am I the only one experiencing this? Certainly, there must be someone that knows the science behind this. I wanted to ask RP but, alas, he's unable to take emails.

It could be the other ingredients. Have you tried prometrium?

There are some isolated anecdotes of progesterone having bad effects. I recall someone posted she gave it to her mom or something, and in small doses it caused hot flashes. That said, it could also be the additives and not the progesterone, it's hard to know.

 

[johns74]

The more Progest-E I take the lower my temp is dipping.

Your temperature was high possibly due to stress hormones. Regardless, if progesterone gives you trouble, why not just stop it and instead focus on thyroid, pregnenolone, or a good vitamin E product?

Vitamin E is like progesterone, but I think more natural, more controlled, with less of the unnatural and unusual effects of unphysiological doses of progesterone.

Some people even mentioned feeling the sedation of progesterone after taking high-dose vitamin E.

 

[tara]

Hey Mittir.

I was wondering how you made the chicken neck soup? Do you know how much to take to get a certain amount of thyroid hormone from the chicken thyroid?

Hi Waremu,
This is what Mittir wrote to me on my log.

I did a lot of googling and could not find the exact hormone content
of chicken neck. Based on the weight of chicken thyroid gland
it is probably equivalent to half to 1 grain of dessicated thyroid.
I used to drink soup of 5 necks and it felt very energizing and
it warmed me up to the point of sweating.
But next day i felt bit drained and tired. I thought it was due to
lack of glycogen. After realizing that a large neck is possibly 1 grain i have
lowered the intake. Now i am taking soup of 1 neck
and it warms me up, but not as much as 5 necks.
I think it would be good idea to to limit your neck intake to
2 per day and drink it several times a day with meal.
This way you will get an even distribution of T3.
Body inactivates excess T3. I have to eat a lot of nutrient rich foods,
especially sugar to feel good. I think people often underestimate the
the amount of food needed to support increased metabolism.
But, i am noticing more weight loss with increased food intake.
I think keeping calcium intake up everyday is a big factor in
weight loss and resting sleep. RP mentioned how
high PTH in kidney dialysis patient causes insomnia.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3503&start=60#p46417

 

[Waremu]

Hey Mittir.

I was wondering how you made the chicken neck soup? Do you know how much to take to get a certain amount of thyroid hormone from the chicken thyroid?

Hi Waremu,
This is what Mittir wrote to me on my log.

I did a lot of googling and could not find the exact hormone content
of chicken neck. Based on the weight of chicken thyroid gland
it is probably equivalent to half to 1 grain of dessicated thyroid.
I used to drink soup of 5 necks and it felt very energizing and
it warmed me up to the point of sweating.
But next day i felt bit drained and tired. I thought it was due to
lack of glycogen. After realizing that a large neck is possibly 1 grain i have
lowered the intake. Now i am taking soup of 1 neck
and it warms me up, but not as much as 5 necks.
I think it would be good idea to to limit your neck intake to
2 per day and drink it several times a day with meal.
This way you will get an even distribution of T3.
Body inactivates excess T3. I have to eat a lot of nutrient rich foods,
especially sugar to feel good. I think people often underestimate the
the amount of food needed to support increased metabolism.
But, i am noticing more weight loss with increased food intake.
I think keeping calcium intake up everyday is a big factor in
weight loss and resting sleep. RP mentioned how
high PTH in kidney dialysis patient causes insomnia.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3503&start=60#p46417

Thanks a lot, Tara.

Do you know how long he cooks the chicken necks for and at what degree (of heat)?