Progest-e Doses & Tapering

[mas]

Any post-menopausal or anyone with any info would be appreciated.

I got my Progest-e and am ready to go. Iam just trying to figure out starting doses so I went to RP articles:

From Progesterone Summaries:

But some women prefer to use progesterone without interruption after the menopause, for its protective antistress effects. Slender people usually find that two or three drops are enough, but this amount may be repeated once or twice as needed to relieve symptoms. Adequate protein in the diet and good thyroid function help the body to produce its own progesterone; even if the ovaries have been removed, the adrenal glands and brain continue to produce progesterone.

Long Natural Health sent an information sheet discussing use of Progest-e

It stated to initially start off at a high dose so that the progesterone at too low of an initial dose wouldn't turn into estrogen- don't ant that!

From the insert:
First 10 days- 3 drops 5x daily
For 14 more days 3 drops 3x daily
then ramp down to 3 drops 1-2 times daily and as needed.

Any thoughts or suggestions? I am going to try the Progesterone to try to tone done my estrogen and get a better balance before I start the Nutripak.

Thanks

 

[Blossom]

This is so exciting mas!!! I followed the Long's instructions at first and then I just started to get a feel for my own individual needs with time. I've chosen uninterrupted dosing because 1. I don't have a uterus therefore I'm not certain where I'm at in my cycle. 2. I was on estrogen prior to discovering Peat and I've tried to overcome that fiasco.
I think it is so individual but the great thing is that once you know how your body will adjust there are virtually no issues. The only remote possibility is taking too high of a dose and having an anesthesia like response. That can be avoided by taking no more than 10-15 mg at a time until you are used to your unique needs. I am so happy I found Progest-e, I truly believe it's a life changer. I'm certain it's played a large part in restoring my health to a more youthful state. Congrats

 

[mas]

Thanks Blossom- I am excited too! After the battering I took being ill and DISABLED and within the last year or so when I started the Peat diet and Pregnenolone, I am now ready to try to make new ground in recovery.
I wouldn't even worry a bit about getting the anesthesia because this "ME?CFS" has given me extremes with periods of being comatose, or when the adrenaline was kicking up I would be wired out of my mind sweating like a pig and endless tachycardia.

I have come far but I still have to resolve some problems and can have bad days even though not as extreme. I am getting closer, but feeling well consistently would be a whole new feeling.

We all need so much support. Thanks for the encouragement!

 

[Blossom]

No problem! I'm just so delighted for you, I know you will feel a difference. I was running on one ovary since my mid thirties so for my age I was super depleted I'm sure. I just know that although this approach is synergistic, the Progest-e is invaluable for most of us women no matter our age. We all want and deserve to feel our best! Keep us posted on you experiences, I can't wait to hear how it goes.

 

[mas]

The first thing I will do is to get an idea of how the Progest-e is working for me- I'm keeping a log of the times that I take it daily and will track the tapering. Its been a day now and since I haven't had any adverse effects I am sure it will be fine.

By the third week, i may be able to integrate the Nutripak thyroid in slowly because of my freezing cold feet, calves and hands and my lack of energy. One step at a time.

It feels good to have a plan. I will post with my progress and other news to share.

 

[Blossom]

The first thing I will do is to get an idea of how the Progest-e is working for me- I'm keeping a log of the times that I take it daily and will track the tapering. Its been a day now and since I haven't had any adverse effects I am sure it will be fine.

By the third week, i may be able to integrate the Nutripak thyroid in slowly because of my freezing cold feet, calves and hands and my lack of energy. One step at a time.

It feels good to have a plan. I will post with my progress and other news to share.

It also feels good to have hope which is often lost after being ill for so long. What I have particularly enjoyed is the steady improvement which never happened before discovering Peat. I know some days I have maybe taken too much or too little but compared to before I'm still way better off. Too much has never harmed me in anyway only possibly relaxed me which I think is good. I think there is probably an abundance of stress hormones at play when the body has been 'fatigued' for so long and coupling that with the usual stress hormone increase that is typical in aging it makes Progest-e one of our best restorative measures. No matter what dose you take I think it's always an improvement over none! Your attention to detail with this is particularly inspirational.

 

[aguilaroja]

....Long Natural Health sent an information sheet discussing use of Progest-e....It stated to initially start off at a high dose....

My experience with Progest-E is different. For non-urgent situations, it's wiser to taper up than down.

I would suggest starting with 3 or 4 drops, then gradually increase the amount by 2 or 3 drops (splitting times, if you want). If there is no relief when reaching the 10 to 15 drop per day range steady state, consider "taking stock" and looking at adjusting other factors. (Of course, the ideal is monitoring both symptoms and serum/saliva levels with experienced guidance. YMMV.)

I'd suggest starting by using it late in the day. It can be sedating and at large doses it will be sedating if absorbed quickly. When splitting doses, starting with two times in the later part of the day seems preferred. Of course, when estrogen excess & depletion symptoms occur during the day, daytime use of Progest-E has its place. Some need the steady dosing throughout the day-less frequent among my acquaintances.

It's rare, but I have seen situations where even small starting amounts of Progest-E improve thyroid function quickly. There was uncomfortable transient high thyroid function. Using enthusiastic large amounts of Progest-E sometimes gives overshoots where a person is sluggish. In pre-existing fatigue situations, it can be tricky sorting out the progesterone overshoot factors.

 

[Blossom]

The Long's instructions are pretty much verbatim from the book From PMS to Menopause which was authored by Peat himself. I was pretty surprised when I read that particular chapter and realised where I had read that info before and it was the Long's instructions. I do take my largest dose at night as aquilaroja points out. I feel it is beneficial for sleep and protection from darkness.

 

[j.]

I'm a young male, for me 1 drop is deeply sedating (although I experimented with like 100mg at once, and that is DEEPLY sedating).

I don't take it every day. If you stop for a few days and then take it again, you can feel a more intense effect because it lets the gland release more thyroid hormone. But by the second day, I would guess the gland doesn't have as much thyroid, so the effect is less intense.

 

[mas]

The Long Natural Health insert states: ( from Peat's From PMS to Menopause in bold)

The more severe your symptoms, the more doses you need.

I have been ill for a long time with lots of health problems, so I feel that for me this approach is best. Peat says slender women can use a little less dosage, so I will start 4 times daily instead of 5, then ramp down.

It is recommended that nearly EVERYONE should begin with the high dose directions for 10 days to avoid complications (as low thyroid, high estrogen situations require a high initial dose to AVOID PROGESTERONE REVERTING TO ESTROGEN.

From what I understand the ratio of estrogen to progesterone should be 1:10.

I don't understand what the mechanism is that turns progesterone and even pregnenolone into estrogen. Can anyone shed some light to this totally confusing subject.

 

[Blossom]

I'm certain there is someone with a more technical explanation than I have but I will just pass on what I know. If the body is used to an estrogen dominant state, and not the brief but intense periods of stimulation it was designed to experience, then the precursor pregnenalone or even progesterone will easily go down the estrogen pathway. I think of it as the body just doing what it's been stuck doing(wrong but well) and adequate progesterone will come in and reverse the process. Too little progesterone probably can't reverse a long term pattern and that is, imo, why Peat recommends starting high.

 

[j.]

I don't understand what the mechanism is that turns progesterone and even pregnenolone into estrogen. Can anyone shed some light to this totally confusing subject.

Maybe they mean that too little progesterone can increase sensitivity to estrogen without counteracting its effects, making you in practice more estrogen dominant.

 

[mas]

Pregnenolone was very subtle.

The protest-e is very powerful!!!!!!I slept so well last night, I can think clearly, the fibromyalgia pain is barely there, very little tachycardia upon exertion my heart rhythms seem normal and calm.

This is UNBELIEVABLE ! I will start a log next week.

 

[aguilaroja]

Pregnenolone was very subtle.

The protest-e is very powerful!!!!!!I slept so well last night, I can think clearly, the fibromyalgia pain is barely there, very little tachycardia upon exertion my heart rhythms seem normal and calm.

This is UNBELIEVABLE ! I will start a log next week.

Sweet.

It may be of interest to track resting pulse and temperature periodically, to adjust the amount later when closer to steady state.

Since metabolism is improving nutrients will be distributed more efficiently. Sometimes ample supply (such as in meals) of minerals (sodium (salt), magnesium, also calcium & potassium) helps speed relief of the "muscular soreness" of fibromyalgia. You might see how the appetite for food sources of these salts changes as improvement continues.

 

[Mittir]

The Long Natural Health insert states: ( from Peat's From PMS to Menopause in bold)

It is recommended that nearly EVERYONE should begin with the high dose directions for 10 days to avoid complications (as low thyroid, high estrogen situations require a high initial dose to AVOID PROGESTERONE REVERTING TO ESTROGEN.

Is this from Peat's book? It seems to contradict RP's expressed views in interviews.
Someone asked this same question in an interview about the
possibility of Pregnenolone and Progesterone converting to Estrogen.
His response was that there are 7 or 8 ways progesterone knocks out estrogen.
Estrogen is a stress hormone and increases other stress hormones.
If progesterone is directly lowering stress by neutralizing estrogen
then there is no need for body to convert pregnenolone or
progesterone into estrogen or cortisol. Pregnenolone and cholesterol
also lowers stress. In another interview he explained that if body
is in intense stress and there is not enough cholesterol then body
will convert pregnenolone and progesteron into cortisol and estrogen
and there will not be enough cholesterol left to make more pregnenolone
and progesterone. Anything that lowers stress will lower the possibility of
increasing stress hormones like estrogen and cortisol.

 

[mas]

Thank you for your kind responses.

I need to monitor my pulse and temperature consistently and all log this.

It is such a learning experience. I have followed a lot of RP diet principles, But I can always improve my diet-I could use more gelatin for example and I will try this and other ways to help heal. I continue with my red light. I'll track my progress with Progest-e and when I feel this has helped via pulse and Temp, I will try the Nutripak to hopefully help my lack of energy and freezing cold hands and feet, along with too may other symptoms.

Time will tell for me and I will learn along the way to make judgements and adjustments. Ray says that everyone is a unique individual case and I am trying to assimilate the knowledge and principles of RP and track my healing.

 

[Blossom]

In some contexts I believe a higher dose is required to stabilize a woman's symptoms. The beauty of this and all of Peat's work really is that he gives us information on protective substances and acknowledges that we are all unique. There isn't a perfect cookie cutter dosage with progesterone. Some do fabulous on low dose only and some on higher doses. Most people fine tune things as they go. The best part really is summed up by Ray himself.

From PMS to Meopause page 89
Since progesterone has none of the harmful side effects of other hormones, the basic procedure should be to use it in sufficient quantity to make the symptoms disappear. This normally means using it only between ovulation and menstruation UNLESS( bold mine) symptoms are sufficiently serious that a missed period is not important.

So basically Ray has provided us with a priceless and safe tool for healing and it is up to each and everyone of us using this tool to use it wisely. The great thing is even though we are human and make mistakes it's really impossible to do any harm with Progest-e beyond some anesthesia/euphoria. IMO this is a minimal issue that is easily avoided once you learn the best dose for your situation.

 

[mas]

Blossom- thank you for this insight!

Since I have no cooperative physician, I must try to educate myself because its now or never for me! I will try to the best of my ability to heal myself.

I have lost so much and I have such hatred and contempt for the "Establishment". I am trying to push that to the side and concentrate on being positive and moving forward.

IGNORANCE IS OUR GREATEST ENEMY!

I was reading a "CFS" forum and the subject was progesterone therapy. Many of these people said that they had no success with this, but I think that the reason was that the progesterone creams are weak and poor quality and loaded with toxins.
A poster on this forum brought up Ray Peat, but nobody was interested in this post. Very sad.

 

[Blossom]

I agree completely. Ray thoughtfully developed this product to help women because he was wanting us to have access to an affordable, safe and effective product. That is not what ' medicine and big pharma' seems to want for us. It is blatantly obvious that the system in place is designed to maximize profits while keeping people in a perpetual state of needing their help. We really are all in the same boat here, just continually learning and improving while hopefully helping and encouraging one another. The biggest lesson I've learned in this is there are really no set in stone rules just doing your best for your own unique circumstance and making adjustments as necessary. There are general guidelines that are a good starting point but no one person can say ' I do this therefore so should you.' That would not be in the spirit of Peat and is just more authorianism. When you really get into fine tuning things it makes medicine with its standard dosing all the more laughable! I know I'm changing all the time and it would be a shame to be stuck at one dose of Progest-e, thyroid or any other intervention. The ability to fine tune things is empowering and healing in itself.

 

[arinryan]

I'm pretty sure the issue with estrogen and Progest-e is that receptors in the body become more sensitive to estrogen when you start taking more progesterone, compared to what your body is accustomed to on its own. I definitely noticed this when I started taking progest-e: mostly breast tenderness in my case, from what I remember. It didn't take long to go away, even with a progest-e dose that stayed pretty constant. I actually found it educational to know what symptoms I personally experienced caused by estrogen sensitivity going up.

I am finding the same educational experience now taking thyroid, and its effects on sensitivities to other hormones--

I probably need to take a break from Progest-e. I am not yet in menopause, at least...I think I am not! But I don't know for sure because I have been taking progest-e continuously for more than a year, and subsequently no periods at all in that time. It just helps me sleep and helps anxiety so much, I can't bear to quit for a few weeks and have a regular cycle!