Protein Quality, Not Genes, Determine Male Height

[nullredvector]

I basically did GOMAD as a kid, really my main source of sugar and protein. Im 6'6'' now.

 

[haidut]

Are notably taller people healthier? The tall seem to die much younger from what I've read. Anecdotally, you literally never see tall 80 year olds. Is there a link to hormonal problems and being much over 6 feet? I might guess the optimal height for males is somewhere between 5'9 and 6'1.

Taller people have higher risk of cancer. Ray wrote about this in some of his articles but he never talked about optimal height. I posted a study on this as well, which as you can imagine immediately caused controversy.
Taller People Have Higher Mortality From Cancer

Not sure why people take this so personally. I sure there are good and bad things about being tall and being short. The studies are about one specific aspect of it. I think shorter people had higher risk of CVD on average, so there is a certain tradeoff it seems. I personally don't buy the explanation that taller people have more cells and thus higher chance of a bad mutation to cause cancer. There is probably a metabolic aspect about it, maybe related to (H)GH and other pituitary hormones.

 

[zztr]

Not sure why people take this so personally.

Being tall is an unbelievably massive social advantage in life, especially for a man. Tons of psych research bears this out. People just instinctively assume taller people are better. And apparently brutally mocking short people seems perfectly natural to most. I'm 5'11 so just an unaffected neutral observer but it seems hard to underplay. It's mostly left me scratching my head.

 

[yerrag]

I'm 5'11 so just an unaffected neutral observer but it seems hard to underplay. It's mostly left me scratching my head.

I'm 5'7" and slightly shorter than Celtics over-achiever Isaiah Thomas, taller than Tom Cruise and Sly Stallone, and i feel just like an unaffected neutral observer as well. But seriously, I'd rather be healthy and have the musculature and frame that is appropriate for my height. I'd rather not be short and stocky, definitely not tall and still stocky, and not be tall and skinny like a stick. I think that people rightly proportioned for their height, whatever the height, are just as healthy as anyone taller or shorter.

 

[jaa]

@jaa, the lesson from Ray Peat and this forum is to do your own research as vested interests, perverse incentives and a groupthink echo chamber effect abound in biology, medicine, politics, etc etc.

This following post does a better job explaining what to think about scientific consensus than I could or even realised a few days ago.

http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/04/17/learning-to-love-scientific-consensus/

 

[Richiebogie]

@jaa, You put your faith in the state, corporations, universities, big pharma, and other large groups of humans, whereas I have faith in the individual - in this case Ray Peat.

Ray Peat has quoted Mark Twain — 'A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.'

Essentially this means that in the time one piece of scientific consensus is corrected to reflect reality, multiple new falsehoods have been accepted as true, despite valid objections.

In this video Ray Peat discusses scientific consensus in biology, biochemistry, nutrition and genetics. He explains how certain biological facts were already known in the 60's but ignored by the institutions.

Effectively he has been helping to further a shadow biology, a shadow medicine...

 

[Lyall]

There also could be an interaction with estrogen here. Aroma taste inhibitors such as letrozole have been investigated as treatments for short stature.

Quite possibly the cheeses, milk, dairy products and animal meats would provide more fat soluble vitamins reducing aromatase and estrogen production over time leading to taller stature.

 

[haidut]

There also could be an interaction with estrogen here. Aroma taste inhibitors such as letrozole have been investigated as treatments for short stature.

Quite possibly the cheeses, milk, dairy products and animal meats would provide more fat soluble vitamins reducing aromatase and estrogen production over time leading to taller stature.

Yep, thanks for bringing this up. I have seen this link reported before. Some adults also reported height increase due to AI drugs but will likely work most on people who have had chronically elevated estrogen for years.

 

[Lyall]

@haidut just to clarify are you suggesting it is possible to increase height post puberty by suppressing estrogen?

 

[haidut]

@haidut just to clarify are you suggesting it is possible to increase height post puberty by suppressing estrogen?

Yes, if estrogen was excessive and caused stunted growth. I don't know that lower normal estrogen levels would cause one to grow more. Peat wrote about his increase in height by taking ~5mg DHEA daily so that's another thing to consider.

 

[Invalidusername]

I am dutch and am 1.85 cm which is slightly above the average dutch height. My parents aren't particularly tall but I am. I always loved milk and milk products when I was growing up, and stil do. So maybe the high protein and calcium content has contributed to me being taller than my parents.
Unfortunately there is a lot of anti-milk propaganda coming from vegans and paleo people here in the Netherlands.. I'm afraid the future generations won't get as tall as us!!

Also the dutch consume a lot of coffee, I've read the dutch consume on average the most coffee per capita in the world! That could also have a favorable effects since it increases CO2.

Is that you in your profile picture? Because if it is, youre most assuredly not ethnically Dutch. If you are a immigrant from foreign parents but now living in Netherlands, and youre saying your parents are not that tall, yet you are 185cm+ this would play into the diet theory. Simply because European countries consume the most dairy on Earth last I checked.

 

[jzeno]

Old thread, but I found this chart and it's interesting to note the countries at the top of list (organized by male height, tallest to shortest). B&H is at the top of the list! Lots of nordic countries! To my surprise. I for sure thought America would be closer to the top, but we are like top 35.

Average human height by country - Wikipedia

 

[jzeno]

Follow up: Bosnia and Herzegovina cuisine - Wikipedia

Maybe somebody will get something out of it.

I will note that a lot of their foods are cooked in the juices of the vegetables, similar to the Hippocratic Soup recipe Dr. Gerson taught and similar to what Dr. Peat refers to well-cooked vegetables in their juices--plus of course, meat. Lots and lots of protein.

 

[Dr. B]

Ok, thanks for explaining your position. I didn't realize you were referring to pathologies and not physical things like height, eye colour, athletic potential, etc.



I think environment plays a role. Again, I'm not arguing the 100% genetic position. I don't think anyone but a small sliver of people do that. There is a level at which radiation exposure would cause every human being to get cancer and die. Genetics be damned. But it also seems likely a lower dose of radiation would effect people with different genetics differently. This is why alcohol, tobacoo, and everything else under the sun effects people differently, and those different effects can be correlated to gene clusters. There are many diseases which affect certain genetic populations (e.g. sickle cell amenia). To say that a disease like that is down to 100% environment seems obviously wrong to me.



Right, the main reason for the increase seems like it's due to environment. That doesn't mean genetics plays no role in the risk and development of the disease and the study never claims that. One researcher claimed that the increase is more likely due to epigenetics than genetics.

It's similar to the height thing. Genetics sets the range, epigenetics sets where you fall in that range.



I don't have time to read that right now, but without reading it my answer would be a emphatic YES. Back to the height example, if I have the genetic potential to end up 5'0" to 5'8" and you have the genetic potential to end up 6'0" to 6'8" then yes, genes matter even if epigentics dictates the final expression of those genes. I think genetic health is analogous to this.

Edit: This paper on what replication studies is my default until I come across better arguments. :)

https://www.gwern.net/docs/genetics/2016-plomin.pdf

theres lots of stuff to go through but i do think as far as height etc, the main relevant factors are how healthy your parents were when they had you, what you were fed in the womb and maybe fed while growing up. i dont think there would be different effects of radiation, tobacco, alcohol, etc depending on your genes. it would depend on your overall health status, and other influences. for instance one person may tolerate radiation than another person but it may be because the first person is a peater, has an excellent diet, whereas the other person eats lots of pufa, poor lifestyle. there is an overall balance of negative factors that need to be accounted for which includes things like diet quality, pufa intake, drug intake, fluoridated water, overall radiation exposure, vaccine exposure and more. the lower dose of radiation would affect people differently based on their current overall health and metabolic status, not their genetics. now your overall health status could be influenced by genetics, but it's a very small component of it, as there's a bunch of factors involved in the health status.

 

[TheCedar1]

prohibition on pork may be largely to blame for the shorter average stature of Herzegovinians. Indeed, regions with a greater fraction of Muslims were shorter than regions with fewer Muslims.

Doesn't make sense in the slightest, how is cutting pork off the diet gonna shrink you? Eating red meat from cows is also a better protein source with even more cholesterol and saturated fats than pork. Look at the Muslims of the caucasus region, they are tall as hell yet they never eat pork due to Islam.

 

[Dr. B]

I'm 5'7" and slightly shorter than Celtics over-achiever Isaiah Thomas, taller than Tom Cruise and Sly Stallone, and i feel just like an unaffected neutral observer as well. But seriously, I'd rather be healthy and have the musculature and frame that is appropriate for my height. I'd rather not be short and stocky, definitely not tall and still stocky, and not be tall and skinny like a stick. I think that people rightly proportioned for their height, whatever the height, are just as healthy as anyone taller or shorter.

supposedly sly stallone is 5'10...?

Doesn't make sense in the slightest, how is cutting pork off the diet gonna shrink you? Eating red meat from cows is also a better protein source with even more cholesterol and saturated fats than pork. Look at the Muslims of the caucasus region, they are tall as hell yet they never eat pork due to Islam.

doesnt pork have a PUFA problem so would contribute to poor health? the healthiest cultures had the dairy and red meat type of diet, with honey or fruits? like the Maasai

 

[lvysaur]

Doesn't make sense in the slightest, how is cutting pork off the diet gonna shrink you? Eating red meat from cows is also a better protein source with even more cholesterol and saturated fats than pork. Look at the Muslims of the caucasus region, they are tall as hell yet they never eat pork due to Islam.

Because pork is far cheaper than beef, so more people can afford it. Beef only means the population eats less meat overall

 

[Dr. B]

Doesn't make sense in the slightest, how is cutting pork off the diet gonna shrink you? Eating red meat from cows is also a better protein source with even more cholesterol and saturated fats than pork. Look at the Muslims of the caucasus region, they are tall as hell yet they never eat pork due to Islam.

Which countries are you including in the caucasus region mate? I didn’t know it had Islamic countries? And yeah pork itself isn’t necessary for height growth… and the ruminants meats protein quality may be better? Chicken and pork have much more pufa.

 

[FitnessMike]

I think i grew few cm in past years (early 30s).

Was always heavy on dairy.

From 197,5cm to 200cm.

 

[golder]

I think i grew few cm in past years (early 30s).

Was always heavy on dairy.

From 197,5cm to 200cm.

Wow that’s impressive. Other than diary do you think anything else helped? Did you use any hormones/neurosteroids etc?