Scientists Still Have It Wrong On Obesity?

[snowboard111]

So you lose weight eating more calories now?

I didn't said it would be the case for everyone...
But having a standard calories intake per day given your body proportions and saying/thinking if you go over it, you gain weight... it's just a over simplistic idea and dumb!!!

 

[XPlus]

We usually expect simple answers to every question and since we can't find real answers to the problem, it's often convenient to blame one's self.
Doctors and fitness experts taught generations of people to blame obesity on genetics and lack of exercise.
Parent's health matters and inactivity might contribute slightly to the problem but when the stress response isn't controlled, the body anticipates a prolonged period of stress ahead and thus metabolism is lowered to preserve energy. We get fat regardless of the amount of calories consumed since energy requirements are very low.

It's preventative measure in a sense but can get out of control with the wrong diet and with superficial stimulation of stress.

The hunger mechanism is tied more tightly with blood sugar and when the diet is heavy on starch, there's a tendency to feel hungry more often but this isn't a problem with a healthy metabolism.

I think my observations contradicts your intuition. In some European cities, where meeting anyone obese is rare, most people don't go to a gym for example. Sure we walk a bit, it's not like living in California where walking is only between your house and the car. But in terms of sports, nothing crazy really. When I went to California, almost everyone seemed fat, yet people were crazy about exercise, gym memberships, "working out"... I met so many people who talk a lot of "calorie restriction" and how they can't eat cheese because it's making them fat...you go to Europe with slim people who have never restricted calorie in their entire lives while pounding cheese and dairy cream daily (fatty cheese, butter, not fake reduced fat products)... It's such a huge contrast with California where it seems normal to be obese (by European standard) and constantly working out and restricting calories and drinking fruit smoothies...

I guess that's what they call Californication.

 

[DaveFoster]

"Low-fat" is usually low total fat and high PUFA. Vegetables, grains, nuts and seeds with their respective oils, PAM cooking spray, low-fat "baked" in PUFA grain-based snacks, low saturated fat shortening (Crisco), peanut butter, along with cured meats, bacon, and chicken.

You can easily get over 20 grams of PUFA/day from this, and more likely upwards to 50 g/day.

Unless you're under 15% fat, you're not depleting PUFA, and 20% is considered low-fat in most circles.

 

[Simonsays]

I blame America's culture of overwork and low/no support systems for caregivers of children, elderly, and disabled for a high-stress national environment. This, plus a very degraded food supply means high-stress survival mode is how people live their normal, everyday lives.

Not just the US, food bank use at record high in UK.

Food bank usage at record high, reveals Trussell Trust

 

[Westside PUFAs]

It's probably not as simple as that. Adipose tissue seems to respond to physiological and psychological stress, not just the energy balance of the system.

There are animal studies where they stressed the animals through the roof but they still didn’t get fat when eating their natural food. Put the hyper-food in and they get fat. The whole “cortisol belly” is BS. It’s the food. If “stress” caused people to gain that belly then you’d see really stressed people with that belly and in the case of many people who are stressed and homeless, drug addicts, college students, and general stressed lean people, there's no cortisol belly.

you go to Europe with slim people who have never restricted calorie in their entire lives while pounding cheese and dairy cream daily (fatty cheese, butter, not fake reduced fat products)

Yup. I always think of France & Italy when I think of people who look down upon eating fat - because they eat really lovely rich foods. It's all about the kinds of fat we eat.

Kim Jong-un loves cheese and it shows.

“The 31-year-old is said to be importing huge quantities of the savory Swiss treat — which he first discovered while studying in the European country as a child.”

Kim Jong-un may be ill from eating too much cheese: report

Guess what else Italians eat…pasta. Gluten rich starchy pasta. And they’re not as fat and sick. I’ve recently asked some French people how much cheese they really eat. They told me that its a small amount, usually after a meal like a dessert. That is a very different than going to In N’ Out Burger and getting the double double with double cheese, going to Chipotle and getting cheese and sour cream in your burrito and bowl everytime, daily cheese pizza, daily whole milk and cream in coffee, too frequent ice cream. You guys are not acknowledging how much dairy fat people are really eating. You guys talk about dairy fat as though one can eat it ad libitum with no consequences. Even Ray Peat agrees that too much dairy fat is a problem: Why Do I Find Dairy Fat To Be Particularly Fattening?

Greece consumes the most olive oil and is one of the top fattest nations.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

"Low-fat" is usually low total fat and high PUFA.

If it's high poofah then it's not low fat. If one doesn't realize that then they don't know how to analyze food or they lack knowledge of the content of foods.

Unless you're under 15% fat, you're not depleting PUFA, and 20% is considered low-fat in most circles.

Even under 15%, it's still impossible to deplete it:

The Big Misunderstanding About PUFA Depletion

Ray Peat on the myth of PUFA depletion and making our own fats

 

[DaveFoster]

If it's high poofah then it's not low fat. If one doesn't realize that then they don't know how to analyze food or they lack knowledge of the content of foods.



Even under 15%, it's still impossible to deplete it:

The Big Misunderstanding About PUFA Depletion

Ray Peat on the myth of PUFA depletion and making our own fats

I won't pretend to understand the mechanisms of PUFA depletion in a couple of haidut's cited studies. I may review them in the coming month.

All good reasons to consume fully hydrogenated coconut oil as your primary fat-source with fruit and fat-free dairy as your primary carb and protein sources respectively.

Even if you could make a PUFA free diet, we would still age.

"lipid peroxidation of polyunsaturated fatty acids produces the protein damage about 23 times faster than the simple sugars do..." - Ray Peat in Glycemia, starch, and sugar in context

As only one aspect of aging, protein degradation still occurs with simple sugars, so you will most definitely and without objection die.

 

[Tenacity]

There are animal studies where they stressed the animals through the roof but they still didn’t get fat when eating their natural food. Put the hyper-food in and they get fat. The whole “cortisol belly” is BS. It’s the food. If “stress” caused people to gain that belly then you’d see really stressed people with that belly and in the case of many people who are stressed and homeless, drug addicts, college students, and general stressed lean people, there's no cortisol belly.

Of course, stressing an animal isn't enough - there needs to be an energy input also. I suppose a different question would be - do people store more fat when stressed, even when eating equal amounts of calories?

In your view, what does make a person fat? Is it simply CICO? If so, how can one lose weight without incurring metabolic damage?

Is 40g of fat from coconut oil better than 40g of fat from cheese, from a metabolic perspective?

 

[Westside PUFAs]

In your view, what does make a person fat? Is it simply CICO? If so, how can one lose weight without incurring metabolic damage?

Fiber deficiency in combination with a high fat diet, no matter what kind of fat it is. We were never meant to eat a high fat diet.

Doug Lisle destroys all weight myths here, Doug starts talking at 1:38:

Losing Weight Without Losing Your Mind, . Webinar 03/10/16

I highly agree with what Doug says in that video. Weight loss is not about eating less and exercising more. It's eating the wrong foods that cause fatness. Exercise is good for circulation but exercise is not going to solve someones weight problem if they don't stop eating the wrong foods. I think metabolic damage is BS.

Here's a screenshot of the myths of weight gain that Doug talks about, and like he said they are all wrong. None of the following are the reason for obesity:

Is 40g of fat from coconut oil better than 40g of fat from cheese, from a metabolic perspective?

If I had to choose, I'd choose the CO but I don't see the need or benefit in doing either.

 

[Tenacity]

Fiber deficiency in combination with a high fat diet, no matter what kind of fat it is. We were never meant to eat a high fat diet.

Do you have a recommended proportion of fibre to fat?

Doug Lisle destroys all weight myths here, Doug starts talking at 1:38:

Losing Weight Without Losing Your Mind, . Webinar 03/10/16

I highly agree with what Doug says in that video. Weight loss is not about eating less and exercising more. It's eating the wrong foods that cause fatness. Exercise is good for circulation but exercise is not going to solve someone weight problem if they don't stop eating the wrong foods. I think metabolic damage is BS.

Thank you for the resource, I'll check it out.

If I had to choose, I'd choose the CO but I don't see the need or benefit in doing either.

You seem to be implying here that the less fat in the diet, the better. Is this true?

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Do you have a recommended proportion of fibre to fat?

When you say the word "fiber" the first thing that comes to peoples mind is gross "Fiber One" cereal or something like it but that's because like most things in nutrition, the public has no clue about anything. Peat has said that ideally he would get most of his calories from whole fruits. That is high fiber. Fruit fiber. For me, a combination of fruit and starch fiber works. I also consume the daily raw carrot which is fiber, and Peat once mentioned the fiber of bamboo shoots for the same effect. People don't understand fiber. Potatoes and other roots are fiber. Rice is fiber, even white rice that has had the brown shell removed is still fiber. Green leaves are fiber. Even fresh coconut meat which is high fat is fiber. People wonder why they are constipated.

You seem to be implying here that the less fat in the diet, the better. Is this true?

Yes. I don't see a reason to eat a high fat diet. Keyword high, or even moderate. Ketosis is a hibernation like state for humans where we use our fat stores for energy. That doesn't mean eating high fat is what one should do. There's a difference between living off of your labile fat reserves and eating high fat.

 

[Tenacity]

Yes. I don't see a reason to eat a high fat diet. Keyword high, or even moderate. Ketosis is a hibernation like state for humans where we use our fat stores for energy. That doesn't mean eating high fat is what one should do. There's a difference between living off of your labile fat reserves and eating high fat.

What would we expect in the body composition of a person who began to eat no fat?

 

[Westside PUFAs]

What would we expect in the body composition of a person who began to eat no fat?

It's impossible to eat no fat because there is a small amount naturally occurring fat in all foods. In addition to that, our gut bacteria make fats from fiber and our liver can make fats as well. I asked Peat about this:

Me-"You’ve mentioned that we can make all of the saturated fats like palmitate and stearate and we can also de-saturate stearic acid to make oleic acid and our own series of polyunsaturates. What is the raw material that we make our own fats from?"

Peat-"We make fats from sugar, starch, and amino acids. Even the brain has enzymes to make new fats."

 

[Tenacity]

It's impossible to eat no fat because there is a small amount naturally occurring fat in all foods. In addition to that, our gut bacteria make fats from fiber and our liver can make fats as well. I asked Peat about this:

Me-"You’ve mentioned that we can make all of the saturated fats like palmitate and stearate and we can also de-saturate stearic acid to make oleic acid and our own series of polyunsaturates. What is the raw material that we make our own fats from?"

Peat-"We make fats from sugar, starch, and amino acids. Even the brain has enzymes to make new fats."

I guess what I'm asking is, if a person ate 3000 calories of which 20% was fat, and another ate 3000 calories of which 10% was fat, which would be fatter, granted that all other variables were the same?

 

[DaveFoster]

I guess what I'm asking is, if a person ate 3000 calories of which 20% was fat, and another ate 3000 calories of which 10% was fat, which would be fatter, granted that all other variables were the same?

It depends on the height and weight of the person. Some people require the caloric density of fat; there's also some libido benefits.

Then there's the whole stimulation of the intestine thing. If the fat is 100% saturated, I don't see any problem with increasing it up to 20-30%. However, there is a problem with decreased CO2 production.

 

[tara]

I am not arguing for a high fat diet, or for there being any great health benefit to a pot belly (other than it sometimes being a lot better than the alternatives). However, I take issue with some of your arguments here.

Kim Jong-un loves cheese and it shows.

Your link is to an n=1 anecdote focussed on a single unquantified factor with no attempt to control for any other factors (+ bonus irrelevant personal insult).

Guess what else Italians eat…pasta. Gluten rich starchy pasta. And they’re not as fat and sick. I’ve recently asked some French people how much cheese they really eat. They told me that its a small amount, usually after a meal like a dessert. That is a very different than going to In N’ Out Burger and getting the double double with double cheese, going to Chipotle and getting cheese and sour cream in your burrito and bowl everytime, daily cheese pizza, daily whole milk and cream in coffee, too frequent ice cream. You guys are not acknowledging how much dairy fat people are really eating. You guys talk about dairy fat as though one can eat it ad libitum with no consequences. Even Ray Peat agrees that too much dairy fat is a problem: Why Do I Find Dairy Fat To Be Particularly Fattening?

These larger statistics don't entirely bear out the results of your word-of mouth unquantified survey.
Per Capita Global Consumption of Cheese - Canadian Dairy Information Centre (CDIC)
cheese 2014: US 15.5kg; France 26.7. There are countries in Europe that eat less cheese than USers, but most of them eat more.
Per Capita Global Consumption of Cheese - Canadian Dairy Information Centre (CDIC)
Even more pronounced pattern for butter: France eats more than 3 times as much butter as US per capita, Italy slightly less than US.

Greece consumes the most olive oil and is one of the top fattest nations.

I'm not in favour of eating large quantities of olive oil for most people most of the time. However, if you look at tables/graphs of countries and BMI, you may notice that a large number of countries with mean BMI below 23 (but not all - Japan is in this category) have very short life-expectancy, and that many of the countries with highish life expectancy have mean BMI above 25. Greece is amongst the countries with high life-expectancy (over 80yrs).

This actuary is probably only interested in correlation rather than causation, but probably more interested than facts than fiction wrt longevity and weight:
http://www.actuaries.asn.au/Library/Events/SUM/2015/RafeLongevityPaper.pdf

Here's another take on association between BMI and mortality, also pointing out that a good many studies do not support the popular and official view of 'ideal/healthy' weight.
Why being 'overweight' actually means you live longer

If it's high poofah then it's not low fat. If one doesn't realize that then they don't know how to analyze food or they lack knowledge of the content of foods.

I agree with you that there can be trouble even in such popularly-considered 'low-fat' diets. But I think you are using your own specialised definition of low-fat here.
I think Dave is exactly right, that one can, and some do, eat a problematic amount of PUFA on what is normally called a low-fat diet in the common usage of that term. Almost every considers 10% of calories from fat to be a low fat diet. If most of that is PUFA, it's easy to get more than 20g PUFA. And most people would consider 20% fat in diet to be low fat. Some definitions count <30% to be low fat.

Fiber deficiency in combination with a high fat diet, no matter what kind of fat it is. We were never meant to eat a high fat diet.

I agree with you that a high fat diet is probably not optimal for most people. However, humans are evolved/designed to survive and thrive on a very wide range of substrate, including high-fat when necessary. As a species, we are very adaptable omnivores (even if some of us have more sensitive systems).

Ray Peat on the myth of PUFA depletion and making our own fats

That's a nice clip on fats and PUFA accumulation.

 

[lindsay]

Kim Jong-un loves cheese and it shows.

“The 31-year-old is said to be importing huge quantities of the savory Swiss treat — which he first discovered while studying in the European country as a child.”

Kim Jong-un may be ill from eating too much cheese: report

Guess what else Italians eat…pasta. Gluten rich starchy pasta. And they’re not as fat and sick. I’ve recently asked some French people how much cheese they really eat. They told me that its a small amount, usually after a meal like a dessert. That is a very different than going to In N’ Out Burger and getting the double double with double cheese, going to Chipotle and getting cheese and sour cream in your burrito and bowl everytime, daily cheese pizza, daily whole milk and cream in coffee, too frequent ice cream. You guys are not acknowledging how much dairy fat people are really eating. You guys talk about dairy fat as though one can eat it ad libitum with no consequences. Even Ray Peat agrees that too much dairy fat is a problem: Why Do I Find Dairy Fat To Be Particularly Fattening?

Greece consumes the most olive oil and is one of the top fattest nations.

'The evidence now suggests getting fat from red meat, eggs, whole-fat dairy or coconut butter are likely to be healthier than relying on vegetable oils.' Pretty sure we can all agree on that.

Read more: How butter and cheese can keep you slim - and even ward off diabetes

We can read a lot of stupid articles speculating on why people get diabetes and why Kim Jong-un is getting fatter. He probably eats a lot of Tofu and soy too. Really - I can tell you matter of fact - I will never base ANY life decisions on what Kim Jong-un does or does not do.

Anyhow, we are all different and to make blanket statements about fat or carbs is not really worthwhile - unless we are agreeing that PUFA is bad. I tried the high starch low fat approach and after I got appendicitis, I decided to just let my body eat foods it craved and needed. I naturally gravitated to eggs and cheese and milk (at first). But I really don't like milk, so after awhile, I just decided to use cream in my coffee because organic cream is cheaper than goats' milk and far more delicious. What works for me might not work for someone else and I also think a lot of why I prefer to eat cheese is because it makes me happy :)

P.S. I think the REAL problem with dairy and how much dairy people in the US eat is that you'd be hard pressed to find dairy products without added Carrageenan and Gums and other horrible by-products like sawdust. Trying to consciously buy non-gut irritating dairy is something I have to consciously do because it is hard to find. Also, buying cheese made with animal rennet is also a very difficult task. I think our food here is so tainted, we might as well not talk about dairy because very few people in the US eat real good dairy.

Additionally, when I advocate cheese, I probably eat only about 4 or 5 oz. per day. Not a ton of fat in my overall diet. But I will happily wear that fat because the vitamins & protein in cheese have made me feel better and until I stop craving cheese, I am happy to eat it. That being said, I've toyed with the idea of going low to no fat for awhile, but already in my head it makes me angry. I'm really not a sugar person and every time I eat starch, it still causes issues. So fruit and dairy is how I like to operate.

 

[bobbybobbob]

I'd like to know where all these thin Europeans are. Everywhere I've been over there people look pretty much the same as the Americans I see. The distinction is in certain regions of America, mostly rural and lower income, you see a lot of extreme obesity. But as far as comparing, say, Frankfurt and Philadelphia? LA and Prague? People look about the same.

I'm glad W&P found some weird dietary religion that works for him, but fat intake doesn't really matter. Obesity is about overeating and not getting properly dosed, occasionally vigorous exercise. I eat loads of dairy fat and am quite lean right now. In general people are fat because the human body is built for quite a bit of daily activity. Lots of daily walking and movement and maybe a little bit of hard labor. Many people are almost totally sedentary now.

 

[jyb]

I guess what I'm asking is, if a person ate 3000 calories of which 20% was fat, and another ate 3000 calories of which 10% was fat, which would be fatter, granted that all other variables were the same?

I'm not sure if it's possible to know looking at the data. Because there are population that eat almost only carbs, and look fine, and some that almost only fat, and look fine. (Only talking about weight here.) So from there, you could imagine that 10% or 20% fat,...you could find two populations for each that look the same in terms of weight health. (Although if you looked at the theory, you could also argue that weight gain is more likely when both fat and carbs are high together when insulin is more likely to store fatty acids without burning them.) However, because of these "other variables" as you say, this really would not mean that you or anyone in particular would do equally good with 10% or 20%. There are very particular and different dietary habits that these pure fat or pure carbs populations follow that could easily explain the paradox: the experiments that we do on this forum with high carb or high fat (ok, more usually high carb because this is a RP forum) do not include these specific habits and possibly other environmental variables which, in my opinion, could easily result in a metabolic outcome that is wildly different than from these populations. And that's even assuming that neither our carb nor fat metabolism are broken, which is unlikely otherwise many of us would not have thyroid problems.

 

[XPlus]

I'm glad W&P found some weird dietary religion that works for him, but fat intake doesn't really matter. Obesity is about overeating and not getting properly dosed, occasionally vigorous exercise.

That, now, makes two of you.