Takuo Fujita (Calcium Paradox) passed away on November 8, 2022, (16 days before Ray Peat)

[Apple]

You have to consider also that while they don't suffer from calcification more than any other country, the probable tradeoff is that with the low calcium intake, they would be suffering from osteoporosis later in life.

I actually meant dairy as a source of calcium that it is probably not for everyone. I assume they rely on fish, greens, hard water (in certain provinces) and seeweed as a source of calcium in Japan. Nordic european countries (with high dairy consumption) also have high rate of osteoporosis.

Fujita underscores that physical exercise is very important for calcium retention and you have to be low stress (happy) to absorb calcium.
BTW, physical exercise (acute or chronic) boosts the levels of Vitamin D.

I'm attaching his book where he discusses PTH and aging (p.349) and lots of other cool stufff...
Apparently PTH raises with age as renal function declines.
Interestingly , food restriction is pretty effective in reducing PTH (and preventing bone loss) and increases longevity (in mice) . Replacing protein (casein) with soy protein was also pretty effective in delaying aging and bone loss.

 

[Eberhardt]

it should also be noted that ray reccomended high calcium diets not only to keep PTH low, but also because calcium stimulates the metabolic rate. calcium is wasted/displaced by stress, so its possible to keep PTH low on low calcium diets if stress is kept low, however the metabolic rate is likely lower so glucose and minerals are not used up quickly, which can increase stress tolerance, but a low metabolic rate has drawbacks. high meat diets also have problems with excess iron not just phosphate, and calcium protects from that too

I'm not sure about that - am I missing something or is the pro-metabolic effect of calcium ment to be just because it's wasted by stress and thus stress-reduction is metabolicly advantageous. Because if so, which is my impression, then a person with good uptake and low stress would not become metabolicly challenged by low calcium. What exact stimulating properties?

 

[Eberhardt]

Some people are sensitive to calcium. Me for example, I get irritable, cold hands, my muscle fibers begin to twitch, get painful anal cramps (lmao I know) and I get low-grade anxiety when I increase my calcium intake.

I think calcium somehow triggers an increase in intracellular calcium levels for me. Vitamin D does the same thing for me, but just 10x worse.

Supplemental magnesium does reverse this issue, but once I increase my calcium again (even in the presence of enough or even high amounts of magnesium) I get the same detrimental effects.

I think my hypervitaminosis A contributes to the problem by increasing bone resorption and thus circulating calcium (independent of PTH, 1,25D) and causing magnesium depletion and slowing down my thyroid function, which is necessary to have magnesium retention (keeping sodium/calcium out of the cell and intracellular potassium high)

I just recently started taking thyroid to help my liver function (biliary vitamin A excretion) and magnesium retention and so far I‘m definitely feeling better. The calcium problem still has not been fixed, but hopefully it will in the future.

So I‘m not completely aligned with Ray, but I still think he is right that thyroid function is key to have good magnesium retention and keeping intracellular calcium low. But I think a low thyroid person might not benefit so much from a high calcium diet when he still wastes a lot of magnesium and the calcium might overexcite the cell.

Very simialar to my hypervitaminosis A story. I did not do well on thyroid though I used it occationally the first two years - but I got heartpalpitations and also mostly it was converted to reverseT3 in my liver due to it being overburdened. Hope you have more success than I did with that.

 

[Eberhardt]

I have to ask what your refer to as "it" not being to related, as there are many things I discussed in my post that relate them to magnesium'


Thanks for confirming my statement that probably the Japanese are more pone to osteoporosis in later years as a result of a low-calcium lifestyle.

I think doctors like Carolyn Dean and Tom Levy don't realize the extent of which they cause their patients to end up with osteoporosis when they tell people to lower calcium intake to prevent calcification. They are right only insofar as seeing the more immediate effects of preventing or reducing calcification, but still wrong when in the long run their recommendation lead people to suffer from osteoporosis in later years.

Ray Peat's approach of stressing optimal sugar metabolism is the right approach, as calcification does not occur, even with large amounts of calcium intake, when optimal metabolism create stress-free and homeostatic conditions that among other thing prevent calcification while allowing the body structure to be strengthened by calcium in the bones, and thus prevent osteoporosis in later years.

But Ray's approach is more complicated to explain to people, and when people like simple approaches, they pay the price in eventually having to deal with complicated health issues and even more complicated sollutions from the doctors who cater to simple solutions in the form of magic bullets.

I generally agree with your sentiments here. I still find it worth separating being able to tolerate, and actually being beneficial though.

"it" was referring to my hypervitaminosis A.

 

[reality]

Excess dietary phosphate is highly inflammatory regardless of changes in PTH.

I think one of the problems of too much phosphate is that is net acidic. Calcium helps but also all the other alkali minerals can aswell so potassium, magnesium, sodium and bicarbonate so as long as you are getting plenty of those to put you in a negative PRAL score it’s not a problem

"The Primary Sources Of Acidity In The Diet Are Sulfur-containing AAs, Salt, And Phosphoric Acid"

- Acidosis: An Old Idea Validated by New Research (the author appears to be credible, you can tell because he's wearing a tie and has his arms crossed) "The idea that “being too acid” contributes to disease susceptibility, especially cancer, has been around for a long time in the...

raypeatforum.com

 

[L_C]

Is your metabolism good enough that you can say that you're not hypothyroid? Maybe the problem lies in poor metabolism. Poor sugar metabolism begets many downstream issues, which unresolved leaves downstream issues hard to overcome, such as poor acid base balance, tending towards acidosis. Poor acid base balance would make potassium less effective as a regulator or calcium entry into the cell, from which calcification would result over time.

I'm not personally familiar with vitamin A issues, as my experience with Vitamin A has been very favorable. Since I began taking liver weekly, I have found ditching my bifocals, a result of how inconvenient it was to use them (not because my vision had improved), to coincide with the improvement of my vision (as a result of weekly liver intake) such that I now drive easily without glasses and can also read text from the cellphone with my bare eyes. It is also probable that it helped that I took therapeutic dosing of 800 mg/day of magnesium for a year, in order to build my magnesium stores, and continued after with eating well-cooked green leaves to maintain my magnesium (and calcium) stores.

I don't know many people who have walked the talk as far as giving magnesium the importance I have. Many, because they just had to take a test to ensure they are magnesium deficient, and don't take a test. simply let magnesium sufficiency slide into low priority status, as they went ahead to fix issues (downstream of magnesium deficiency) that are very dependent on having magnesium sufficiency. They may even think that since no test confirms magnesium deficiency, then they cross their fingers and assume they are magnesium sufficient. And they are foolish in thinking that way. I myself can look back all the way into what I've eaten all the way to my infancy, and can find no reason at all to think that I have, through my lifetime of eating, been able to eat enough foods that are building me to magnesium sufficiency. So I made the assumption then that I am deficient in it, and without needing a test (most are useless anyway, and the useful one is so expensive, and a DIY one is bothersome to say the least) I went ahead and did a year of therapeutic magnesium dosing. In the off chance I was wrong, I wouldn't be harmed even though magnesium toxicity can be fatal, because the gut will sense I have to much magnesium, and will cause me to excrete the excess with diarrhea. As long as I'm doing my supplementation orally, the gut will protect me from magnesium overdose and toxicity. However, I don't get this protection if I were to take magnesium intravenously or by injection.

It's worth knowing the importance of magnesium. Without adequate magnesium stores, you won't be able to build up enough potassium stores no matter how much potassium intake. Without enough magnesium, you won't get much energy as ATP binds with magnesium to form a complex needed to be used for energy production. And as far as Vitamin A is concerned, it uses up magnesium so if you have little magnesium, where does the vitamin A go if unused?

If you're low in magnesium, I don't think taking Calcium/Magnesium supplements is enough. It's actually inane. It doesn't get you to magnesium sufficiency at all.

Thank you for your post! Yes, I'm more likely hypothorid but probably like 1/3 of population is hypothoroid and dont have these problems. I have been also taking Mg and Haidut's mineral analysis does show I have way too much Mg and not enough Ca.

Other than pumping myself with calcium/vitamin d and some vitamin k, I am not really sure what else to do .

 

[Apple]

I think one of the problems of too much phosphate is that is net acidic. Calcium helps but also all the other alkali minerals can aswell so potassium, magnesium, sodium and bicarbonate so as long as you are getting plenty of those to put you in a negative PRAL score it’s not a problem

"The Primary Sources Of Acidity In The Diet Are Sulfur-containing AAs, Salt, And Phosphoric Acid"

- Acidosis: An Old Idea Validated by New Research (the author appears to be credible, you can tell because he's wearing a tie and has his arms crossed) "The idea that “being too acid” contributes to disease susceptibility, especially cancer, has been around for a long time in the...

raypeatforum.com

That makes sense to me. Ray Peat said that minerals in the body are interchangeable...

 

[Jamsey]

I’m confused why he didn’t mention eggshell as a good calcium source. It is primarily calcium carbonate, with a few other trace minerals and proteins that aid in calcium absorption/utilization. I also wanted to mention this thread

PTH - the connection of all stress hormones

"When there is adequate calcium, vitamin D, and magnesium in the diet, PTH is kept to a minimum. When PTH is kept low, cells increase their formation of the uncoupling proteins, that cause mitochondria to use energy at a higher rate, and this is associated with decreased activity of the fatty...

raypeatforum.com

which describes how Ray talks about parathyroid hormone as the base of the stress cascade. This places dietary calcium as a fundamental anti stress factor or tool, as essentially the only role of parathyroid hormone is to keep blood calcium elevated. As demonstrated in fish, when calcium is steadily administered/eaten, parathyroid hormone levels are zero or near zero. Therefore, it seems logical under a Peat framework to strive towards zero parathyroid release through steady calcium intake, either through periodic milk drinking or slow/long absorbing calcium forms like eggshell. I personally have experienced benefits from eggshell(on top of a milk heavy diet), including lowered water retention and much greater ease in falling asleep if taken before bed.

 

[Apple]

I’m confused why he didn’t mention eggshell as a good calcium source. It is primarily calcium carbonate, with a few other trace minerals and proteins that aid in calcium absorption/utilization. I also wanted to mention this thread

PTH - the connection of all stress hormones

"When there is adequate calcium, vitamin D, and magnesium in the diet, PTH is kept to a minimum. When PTH is kept low, cells increase their formation of the uncoupling proteins, that cause mitochondria to use energy at a higher rate, and this is associated with decreased activity of the fatty...

raypeatforum.com

which describes how Ray talks about parathyroid hormone as the base of the stress cascade. This places dietary calcium as a fundamental anti stress factor or tool, as essentially the only role of parathyroid hormone is to keep blood calcium elevated. As demonstrated in fish, when calcium is steadily administered/eaten, parathyroid hormone levels are zero or near zero. Therefore, it seems logical under a Peat framework to strive towards zero parathyroid release through steady calcium intake, either through periodic milk drinking or slow/long absorbing calcium forms like eggshell. I personally have experienced benefits from eggshell(on top of a milk heavy diet), including lowered water retention and much greater ease in falling asleep if taken before bed.

Same as with milk , it can cause troubles if one has low stomach acid. And if one (with this condition) keeps pushing egg shell/milk it is absorbed differently and will cause soft tissue calcification in the abscence of enough acidity. Here is a reference I saw from @Amazoniac , Calcium and Magnesium

Contrary to the claims of uninformed sources, Low Stomach Acid does not pose a problem with calcium absorption, as even patients with no acid production (achlorhydria) are able to absorb calcium regardless of whether it comes in the form of calcium citrate, calcium carbonate, or milk. However low stomach acid affects the proper utilization of calcium, frequently resulting in calcium being deposited into soft tissue instead of bone, which as mentioned, increases the risk for developing arthritis, spurs, bone loss, cerebral and cardiovascular calcification, as well as other physical and mental disorders.

 

[gaze]

I'm not sure about that - am I missing something or is the pro-metabolic effect of calcium ment to be just because it's wasted by stress and thus stress-reduction is metabolicly advantageous. Because if so, which is my impression, then a person with good uptake and low stress would not become metabolicly challenged by low calcium. What exact stimulating properties?

its not that you will be metabolically challenged, its just the metabolic rate will be lower which has certain problems. its possible to have good health with a lower metabolic rate. I know some people who can eat 1600 calories a day and be in good health, they almost never feel hungry. the problem is eventually the low metabolic rate may cause some problems, such as predisposition to cancer, low regeneration, lower IQ especially if its been a thing since childhood. this is what ray said about calcium and the metabolic rate:

"Calcium inhibits the fat-forming enzymes, fatty acid synthase, reducing the formation of fats and at the same time it activates the uncoupling proteins in the mitochondria which are associated with increased longevity. Milk and calcium increases the metabolic rate, the uncoupling proteins burn calories faster while they protect against free-radical oxidations. …. So, the uncoupling proteins burn calories faster, at the same time that your reducing fat synthesis and milk is, as far as I know, the only food that does both of those things simultaneously”

the coupling/uncoupling of the mitochondria is a complex subject. the metabolic rate should be thought of differently than thyroid metabolism itself. its possible to have a high metabolic rate and low thyroid, and its possible to have decent thyroid function with a low metabolic rate.

 

[AdR]

Some people are sensitive to calcium. Me for example, I get irritable, cold hands, my muscle fibers begin to twitch, get painful anal cramps (lmao I know) and I get low-grade anxiety when I increase my calcium intake.

I think calcium somehow triggers an increase in intracellular calcium levels for me. Vitamin D does the same thing for me, but just 10x worse.

Supplemental magnesium does reverse this issue, but once I increase my calcium again (even in the presence of enough or even high amounts of magnesium) I get the same detrimental effects.

I think my hypervitaminosis A contributes to the problem by increasing bone resorption and thus circulating calcium (independent of PTH, 1,25D) and causing magnesium depletion and slowing down my thyroid function, which is necessary to have magnesium retention (keeping sodium/calcium out of the cell and intracellular potassium high)

I just recently started taking thyroid to help my liver function (biliary vitamin A excretion) and magnesium retention and so far I‘m definitely feeling better. The calcium problem still has not been fixed, but hopefully it will in the future.

So I‘m not completely aligned with Ray, but I still think he is right that thyroid function is key to have good magnesium retention and keeping intracellular calcium low. But I think a low thyroid person might not benefit so much from a high calcium diet when he still wastes a lot of magnesium and the calcium might overexcite the cell.

Do you increase your calcium by taking it directly or through foods? I have been drinking a lot of milk and stopped feeling good on it last year. I think that although milk does have a lot of calcium, it also contains a tremendous amount of phosphorous (1.2:1, Ca:P ratio). I started supplementing calcium and some of my symptoms started improving. I'm wondering if higher total phosphorous intake requires a higher relative calcium intake i.e. a higher Ca:P ratio from diet.

 

[Jamsey]

Same as with milk , it can cause troubles if one has low stomach acid. And if one (with this condition) keeps pushing egg shell/milk it is absorbed differently and will cause soft tissue calcification in the abscence of enough acidity. Here is a reference I saw from @Amazoniac , Calcium and Magnesium

Contrary to the claims of uninformed sources, Low Stomach Acid does not pose a problem with calcium absorption, as even patients with no acid production (achlorhydria) are able to absorb calcium regardless of whether it comes in the form of calcium citrate, calcium carbonate, or milk. However low stomach acid affects the proper utilization of calcium, frequently resulting in calcium being deposited into soft tissue instead of bone, which as mentioned, increases the risk for developing arthritis, spurs, bone loss, cerebral and cardiovascular calcification, as well as other physical and mental disorders.

I read through the reference you sent, and the idea of “enough stomach acidity” being needed to avoid calcification was not supported by any references that I could find, and also seemed somewhat arbitrary. The studies that I could find either demonstrated that calcium carbonate and milk do not contribute to vascular calcification(even as part of a atherogenic diet)

https://docs.lib.purdue.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1077&context=open_access_theses

“High calcium intakes from calcium carbonate or dairy did not alter cardiovascular function or aggravate atherosclerotic or calcified plaque deposition in coronary arteries of Ossabaw miniature swine fed an atherogenic diet.”

or that calcium carbonate actually reduces vascular calcification

Effect of oral calcium carbonate on aortic calcification in apolipoprotein E-deficient (apoE−/−) mice with chronic renal failure

Abstract. Background. In chronic kidney disease (CKD) patients, the intake of calcium-based phosphate binders is associated with a marked progression of co

academic.oup.com

“calcium carbonate enriched diet unexpectedly induced a significant decrease of both plaque (p < 0.05) and non-plaque-associated calcification surface (p < 0.05) in CRF mice. ”

 

[Apple]

I read through the reference you sent, and the idea of “enough stomach acidity” being needed to avoid calcification was not supported by any references that I could find, and also seemed somewhat arbitrary. The studies that I could find either demonstrated that calcium carbonate and milk do not contribute to vascular calcification(even as part of a atherogenic diet)

https://docs.lib.purdue.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1077&context=open_access_theses

“High calcium intakes from calcium carbonate or dairy did not alter cardiovascular function or aggravate atherosclerotic or calcified plaque deposition in coronary arteries of Ossabaw miniature swine fed an atherogenic diet.”

or that calcium carbonate actually reduces vascular calcification

Effect of oral calcium carbonate on aortic calcification in apolipoprotein E-deficient (apoE−/−) mice with chronic renal failure

Abstract. Background. In chronic kidney disease (CKD) patients, the intake of calcium-based phosphate binders is associated with a marked progression of co

academic.oup.com

“calcium carbonate enriched diet unexpectedly induced a significant decrease of both plaque (p < 0.05) and non-plaque-associated calcification surface (p < 0.05) in CRF mice. ”

I can only testify from my own expirence with insufficient stomach acid, it is just waste of food ... Calcium is probably absorbed but it goes somewhere else but bones/teeth/hair.
I had enough time to experiment with milk and eggshell and their derivatives... total failure.
So I rely on fruits and veggies and seafood to get Ca now, feel much better.

 

[Jamsey]

I can only testify from my own expirence with insufficient stomach acid, it is just waste of food ... Calcium is probably absorbed but it goes somewhere else but bones/teeth.
I had enough time to experiment with milk and eggshell and their derivatives... total failure.

Total failure to do what?

Calcium absorption and achlorhydria - PubMed

Defective absorption of calcium has been thought to exist in patients with achlorhydria. I compared absorption of calcium in its carbonate form with that in a pH-adjusted citrate form in a group of 11 fasting patients with achlorhydria and in 9 fasting normal subjects. Fractional calcium...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

“Administration of calcium carbonate as part of a normal breakfast resulted in completely normal absorption in the achlorhydric subjects.”

 

[yerrag]

I can only testify from my own expirence with insufficient stomach acid, it is just waste of food ... Calcium is probably absorbed but it goes somewhere else but bones/teeth/hair.
I had enough time to experiment with milk and eggshell and their derivatives... total failure.
So I rely on fruits and veggies and seafood to get Ca now, feel much better.

Isn't low stomach acidity a problem that is associated with poor sugar metabolism, such that lower production of CO2 (that comes from sub-optimal sugar metabolism) sets one up to be low on carbonic acid. Carbonic acid as a substrate for making stomach acid (HCl) being low would lead to low stomach acid production.

Invariably, the problem with calcium intake leading to internal tissue calcification because of low stomach acid is a problem of poor sugar metabolism.

Low stomach acid is merely a symptom of poor sugar metabolism. The real cause is poor sugar metabolism, and not low stomach acid production.

 

[L_C]

Isn't low stomach acidity a problem that is associated with poor sugar metabolism, such that lower production of CO2 (that comes from sub-optimal sugar metabolism) sets one up to be low on carbonic acid. Carbonic acid as a substrate for making stomach acid (HCl) being low would lead to low stomach acid production.

Invariably, the problem with calcium intake leading to internal tissue calcification because of low stomach acid is a problem of poor sugar metabolism.

Low stomach acid is merely a symptom of poor sugar metabolism. The real cause is poor sugar metabolism, and not low stomach acid production.

hm, so what are the symptoms of poor sugar metabolism?...and how do you fix it? Thanks.

 

[yerrag]

"it" was referring to my hypervitaminosis A.

I wish we could understand more about hypervitaminosis. As one who suffers from it, you have a better insight into it. I hope you can unravel the mystery.

 

[AdR]

.

 

[yerrag]

hm, so what are the symptoms of poor sugar metabolism?...and how do you it? Thanks.

The symptoms are numerous, as poor sugar metabolism in an energy problem, and all the effects of low energy are manifested in all diseases downstream. Having said that, as that statement, while true, doesn't help as much, I'll try to be more specific in the more immediate downstream effects, or diseases, if you will. Some of these effects are not considered a disease, although they should be. As benign as they appear to be, they cause more serious diseases downstream.

Acid base imbalance is one. The lack of CO2 production and in its place acids such as lactic acid, and to a lesser extent, keto acids are produced. While this is not considered a disease, as it is hardly felt as acidosis and only felt as acidemia (acidosis being mild and acidemia being extreme in emergency cases, which is rare), people don't recognize it as a symptom outright. But it is a major source of stress, for which the body has to compensate for.

It lowers the availability of oxygen, so much needed for optimal metabolism. With CO2 being low in the blood, oxygen is kept from being released to tissues, causing hypoxia. With the lack of oxygen to carry out mitochondrial oxidation, the metabolic pathway shifts to glycolysis, where lactic acid is produced instead of CO2, and where very little energy is produced (Instead of 34 ATP molecules being produced, only 2 is produced (give or take a few, I don't have these numbers drilled in my head). Result is low energy availability, and also lowered immunity, among others. Also, it is a vicious cycle at work, as high acidity begets more production of acid, feeding the cycle.

Another effect of acid base imbalance is that it causes potassium to lose its role as a regulator of calcium entry into the cell and results in calcification of tissues. Potassium, instead of being inside the cell, and in its membranes, has to be released to the extracellular fluids (evf), in exchange for hydronium ion (H+), because potassium is more alkaline than hydronium, and this compensation mechanism makes the acidic ecf more alkaline. This results in the cell becoming more susceptible to calcium entry. And this explains why having poor sugar metabolism (usually called hypothyroid interchangeably but not exactly) sets people up to develop calcification. It just gets worse over time as calcification gets worse in organs and organs become stiff and fibrotic.

Another symptoms if poor sugar regulation, whether as hyperglycemia or hypoglycemia, as they are just two sides of the same coin. But I will stop here for now. The subject can get very long-winded.

 

[Apple]

Isn't low stomach acidity a problem that is associated with poor sugar metabolism, such that lower production of CO2 (that comes from sub-optimal sugar metabolism) sets one up to be low on carbonic acid. Carbonic acid as a substrate for making stomach acid (HCl) being low would lead to low stomach acid production.

Invariably, the problem with calcium intake leading to internal tissue calcification because of low stomach acid is a problem of poor sugar metabolism.

Low stomach acid is merely a symptom of poor sugar metabolism. The real cause is poor sugar metabolism, and not low stomach acid production.

Is there any fix for this (poor sugar metabolism) ?