The Fall of Man

[noodlecat]

Go back

quiet, hans.

 

[TheSir]

Thanks! but it's not really an answer or response to the actual sentiment

Heh, well they are not far-fetched sentiments insofar as the tendency to glorify the spiritual over the material across the world religions is concerned. Abrahamics believe this is a fallen world devoid of truth. Gnostics believe our world is a cheap imitation of the real world. Hindus (and Buddhists by extension) believe the world is a deceitful illusion. Pagans see the material world as a mere reflection of the real world. You seem well read, so I'm probably not contributing much with this reply.

Christianity is anti-life.

It's not just Christianity; the anti-lifeness -- which would be more aptly described anti-physical-lifeness -- is deeply embedded in practically all religions and spiritual frameworks of any recognizable worth. Ask any spiritual seeker whether the spiritual is more significant than the material and they will all answer: yes it is. Yet to be anti-life because you're anti-physical-life would be like hating water because you hate ponds. Meaning that our physically perceptible lives are such a small part of what life consists of in all of its totality. Thus the kind of anti-life you are referring to is about rejecting the lowest expression of life in favor of higher expressions of it.

 

[FoodForeal]

Heh, well they are not far-fetched sentiments insofar as the tendency to glorify the spiritual over the material across the world religions is concerned. Abrahamics believe this is a fallen world devoid of truth. Gnostics believe our world is a cheap imitation of the real world. Hindus (and Buddhists by extension) believe the world is a deceitful illusion. Pagans see the material world as a mere reflection of the real world. You seem well read, so I'm probably not contributing much with this reply.

It's not just Christianity; the anti-lifeness -- which would be more aptly described anti-physical-lifeness -- is deeply embedded in practically all religions and spiritual frameworks of any recognizable worth. Ask any spiritual seeker whether the spiritual is more significant than the material and they will all answer: yes it is. Yet to be anti-life because you're anti-physical-life would be like hating water because you hate ponds. Meaning that our physically perceptible lives are such a small part of what life consists of in all of its totality. Thus the kind of anti-life you are referring to is about rejecting the lowest expression of life in favor of higher expressions of it.

Jesus says to hate your life in this world. Jesus preaches hatred for your own family. Read the Soren Kierkegaard quote in the post you replied to. If people followed Christianity's teachings literally they would implement the extinction of the human race. Christianity and all world religions spread emasculation. Pursuit of power and wealth (self interest) are prohibited or at least penalized. Ancestor worship as in paganism promotes self interest and strengthening of your people by living up to the higher ideals embedded in the myths and legends of great ancestors past.

 

[Perry Staltic]

Jesus says to hate your life in this world. Jesus preaches hatred for your own family.

Jesus said many things to make the carnal stumble.

 

[OccamzRazer]

It's not just Christianity; the anti-lifeness -- which would be more aptly described anti-physical-lifeness -- is deeply embedded in practically all religions and spiritual frameworks of any recognizable worth. Ask any spiritual seeker whether the spiritual is more significant than the material and they will all answer: yes it is. Yet to be anti-life because you're anti-physical-life would be like hating water because you hate ponds. Meaning that our physically perceptible lives are such a small part of what life consists of in all of its totality. Thus the kind of anti-life you are referring to is about rejecting the lowest expression of life in favor of higher expressions of it.

Very well said!

 

[TheSir]

Jesus says to hate your life in this world. Jesus preaches hatred for your own family. Christianity and all world religions spread emasculation. Pursuit of power and wealth (self interest) are prohibited or at least penalized. Ancestor worship as in paganism promotes self interest and strengthening of your people by living up to the higher ideals embedded in the myths and legends of great ancestors past.

What you think Christianity lacks -- yet truly represents -- and what you think paganism uniquely represents -- yet truly shares with Christianity -- are pretty much the one same essence. Historically, pagans have by large 'hated' the physical world as much as any other spiritually inclined group. The gist of the Indo-European pagan philosophy (the most accurate remaining record of which I believe is found in early Vedic philosophy) is about transcending the material world, the untruthful creation, the deceitful illusion (maya) and so on. This is what pagans and all religions are more or less in agreement about, that the material world is not the ultimate reality. Thus we are invited to ask: is anything less than the ultimate reality worth your time and energy? On the most fundamental level, self-interest is neither prohibitable or penalizable, but rather undesirable; self-interest is warned against for your own sake, as it will translate to an investment into an illusion: you are not your earthly body, not your earthly achievements, not your earthly power. Neither is your race an earthly structure on the most fundamental level, but a reflection of a spiritual structure. Investing your energies towards these ends would not be of service to your true interests.

Christianity teaches no hatred towards your own family or race, nor does it teach against revering your ancestors (heck, like a third of the bible is about genealogy). What it does teach is that none of these are gods unto themselves, that there is one who towers over all of them. Again, ancient (Indo-European) pagans would have agreed with this. It thus seems that what you think of as paganism is really neo-paganism, which is little more than esoteric materialism. See to which one you relate more:

If people followed Christianity's teachings literally they would implement the extinction of the human race.

Yes, this is the theoretical end-game to any framework that puts the spiritual above the material. Nature, however, is powerful enough to keep the mankind alive no matter what thoughts and ideas it chooses to commit to. So it's kind of a hypotheticality.

Very well said!

Thanks, appreciate it.

 

[FoodForeal]

What you think Christianity lacks -- yet truly represents -- and what you think paganism uniquely represents -- yet truly shares with Christianity -- are pretty much the one same essence. Historically, pagans have by large 'hated' the physical world as much as any other spiritually inclined group. The gist of the Indo-European pagan philosophy (the most accurate remaining record of which I believe is found in early Vedic philosophy) is about transcending the material world, the untruthful creation, the deceitful illusion (maya) and so on. This is what pagans and all religions are more or less in agreement about, that the material world is not the ultimate reality. Thus we are invited to ask: is anything less than the ultimate reality worth your time and energy? On the most fundamental level, self-interest is neither prohibitable or penalizable, but rather undesirable; self-interest is warned against for your own sake, as it will translate to an investment into an illusion: you are not your earthly body, not your earthly achievements, not your earthly power. Neither is your race an earthly structure on the most fundamental level, but a reflection of a spiritual structure. Investing your energies towards these ends would not be of service to your true interests.

Christianity teaches no hatred towards your own family or race, nor does it teach against revering your ancestors (heck, like a third of the bible is about genealogy). What it does teach is that none of these are gods unto themselves, that there is one who towers over all of them. Again, ancient (Indo-European) pagans would have agreed with this. It thus seems that what you think of as paganism is really neo-paganism, which is little more than esoteric materialism. See to which one you relate more:

View attachment 35275



Yes, this is the theoretical end-game to any framework that puts the spiritual above the material. Nature, however, is powerful enough to keep the mankind alive no matter what thoughts and ideas it chooses to commit to. So it's kind of a hypotheticality.


Thanks, appreciate it.

Paganism's heaven is Valhalla which is a place where people can die a glorious death in battle as many times as they want with their racial brethren, just as they did to get there in the first place. Paganism is about your people being as powerful and great as they can be while they are here to prove themselves worthy to be with the best of their ancestors in Valhalla. Most other religions are about minimizing conflict and supporting the weak rather than cutting them off to strengthen your people. Self interest is good. It is not warned against in Christianity is is mandated against. To die to and hate this world and be a slave for christ is to be a Christian. As described in the original text, all Christians are hypocrites, deeply. Our true interests are what we can see in this world, not some unknowable afterlife. Low time preference does not mean that you are sacrificing your self interest for the next world it still means that you are trying to maximize your future well-being on this earth, but many Christians think that delayed gratification is what Christianity teaches when it tells you to hate this world and get rid of your possessions.

For some reason the picture I originally posted got fuzzy but did you read the image? There's a link in one of my posts and in my image to the original suicide note and the page numbers. At least you admit that extinction is the end game and it is what christianity ideally aims for.

 

[FoodForeal]

Jesus said many things to make the carnal stumble.

They are commandments that are purposely impossible to follow. By spreading Christianity and ignoring commandments that are impossible, people learn to ignore truths that they should heed. Christianity makes you blind.

 

[Perry Staltic]

They are commandments that are purposely impossible to follow. By spreading Christianity and ignoring commandments that are impossible, people learn to ignore truths that they should heed. Christianity makes you blind.

Name one. Or two.

 

[FoodForeal]

Name one. Or two.

John 12:25 - Jesus Predicts His Death

Whoever loves his life will lose it, but whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

biblehub.com

"Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life."

 

[Perry Staltic]

John 12:25 - Jesus Predicts His Death

Whoever loves his life will lose it, but whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

biblehub.com

"Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life."

That's not a commandment; it's simply a statement of truth, ie if you love things pertaining to this life more than you love things pertaining to real, unending life, then you will remain lost. And if you hate the lost, degenerated state of this world out of love for perfection and righteousness, then you will find life that doesn't end.

 

[FoodForeal]

That's not a commandment; it's simply a statement of truth, ie if you love things pertaining to this life more than you love things pertaining to real, unending life, then you will remain lost. And if you hate the degenerated state of this world out of love for perfection and righteousness, then you will find life that doesn't end.

"Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”"
Matthew 19:21
Source: 62 Bible verses about Giving, Of Possessions

62 Bible verses about Giving, Of Possessions

A topical Bible which shows the most relevant Bible verse for each topic

bible.knowing-jesus.com

If you actually hated your life and died to it, you would own nothing.


"And this in my opinion is the falsification of which official Christianity is guilty: it does not frankly and unreservedly make known the Christian requirement—perhaps because it is afraid people would shudder to see at what a distance from it we are living, without being able to claim that in the remotest way our life might be called an effort 21 in the direction of fulfilling the requirement. Or (merely to take one example of what is everywhere present in the New Testament) : when Christ requires us to save our life eternally (and that surely is what we propose to attain as Christians) and to hate our own life in this world, is there then a single one among us whose life in the remotest degree could be called even the weakest effort in this direction? And perhaps there are thousands of "Christians" in the land who are not so much as aware of this requirement. So then we "Christians" are living, and are loving our life, just in the ordinary human sense."
"let us not wish to gloss over the Christian requirement, so that by suppression or by falsification we may bring about an appearance of decorum which is in the very highest degree demoralizing and is a sly death-blow to Christianity."

 

[Perry Staltic]

"Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”"
Matthew 19:21

That was said to a specific person who was very wealthy and trusted in that wealth. It wasn't a commandment meant for everyone

 

[Perry Staltic]

If you actually hated your life and died to it, you would own nothing.

Non sequitur. It's perfectly possible to hate this place yet own things.

 

[FoodForeal]

That was said to a specific person who was very wealthy and trusted in that wealth. It wasn't a commandment meant for everyone

This world doesn't matter, only eternal life matters, so die to this world. If this world is really so evil, stop participating.

 

[Perry Staltic]

This world doesn't matter, only eternal life matters, so die to this world. If this world is really so evil, stop participating.

That's not the way it works. God puts his light in people so that others can bear witness and find their way out of darkness.

 

[FoodForeal]

That's not the way it works. God puts his light in people so that others can bear witness and find their way out of darkness.

Yes you can do that while owning nothing like Jesus did. But you won't.

 

[Demyze]

Ah, religion is about hating reality, nature, and in a sense humanity. No wonder religiosity goes hand in hand with high serotonin and has been a favorite of people seeking to treat others as property, exploiters, authoritarians, and sociopaths

They can't accept how reality works empirically so they spend their lives in a mentally I'll word game, performing endless mental acrobatics. Unable to derive anything meaningful empirically, and recognize that everything changes, interacts, influences, and develops, their minds retreat to abstractions and symbols. Which to them are infinitely more pure than genitals, conciousness and physical energy

 

[Perry Staltic]

Yes you can do that while owning nothing like Jesus did. But you won't.

Why would I want to? What would it accomplish? The preeminent commandment is to love others as we love ourselves, not don't own anything. That's a Klaus Schwab WEF commandment.

 

[FoodForeal]

Why would I want to? What would it accomplish? The preeminent commandment is to love others as we love ourselves, not don't own anything. That's a Klaus Schwab WEF commandment.

“If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” By possessing things in this world you are attached to it. If you wish to have eternal life you must die to this world and cut yourself off from it. WWJD?