The Problem Of Thyroid Decompensation When Supplementing

[Kyle M]

I think it's an interesting experiment, good luck and post how it goes.

 

[MyUsernameHere]

Thanks to both of you. It has to be done. I've tried so many things in the past 4 years that I don't know what's left anymore. I tried it nicely, food, mild supplements, destressing. But my body is still missing a very big key something.

I've gone through so much suffering in the past 4 years. If I told you that I have heart palpitations non stop for the past 4 years? And adrenaline rushes at every mildest inconvenience, would you believe me? My adrenals are probably glowing red like a hot coal, all due to having to take all the weight that the fried thyroid has let up. I have high cortisol, and high estrogen, and I've been unable to get them down through numerous methods.

Forcing thyroid back into action has been the only thing that has shown me the potential for massive improvements. They've kept me on Synthroid for years which has done nothing. NDT nothing. Now with T3 I saw a glimpse of my former self.

I am hoping that if I can give my body adequate thyroid hormones through supplements, it will be in a healthy state and it can then perhaps restore itself over the long term enough to produce adequate thyroid on its own. But I just don't see how it could ever heal by staying like this. It leads absolutely nowhere.

So I will do what needs to be done. My dosage will not exceed one Cynoplus tablet anyway, I believe I will need less than that to achieve optimal levels. Of course, nutrition shall remain on point like always. Other supplements I am using are only magnesium chloride at the moment.

 

[Pointless]

My temps were stuck until I added more fructose from juice concebtrate. Try eating more carbs.

 

[Tarmander]

I think you can get away with 24-48 hours of increased thyroid intake without inhibiting your own synthesis. Meaning your body does not compensate for a couple days. I know there was that body temp reset guy, can't remember his name, which showed that very short term thyroid supplementation doesn't affect longer term output. I'm pretty sure he was using T2 though so no idea there.

It is probably more likely that you simply burned through your available glycogen and minerals. This is very natural. The car slows down when it gets low on fuel. This concept is something I have learned from years of messing around with peat supplements. The more you push your metabolism, the more it slows itself down to compensate for the lack of usable materials. Increasing your metabolism long term is a way of life, and can be difficult. I feel your pain with the compensation, it can make you feel hopeless.

 

[lollipop]

It's a pretty complex system, maybe over time of using it to increase metabolism you can alter your FA profile and other endogenous chemical thyroid blockers and obtain more flexibility. I wouldn't take one day of a crash as your ultimate fate.

This. One day might not be enough data to draw a sufficient conclusion.

 

[lollipop]

Increasing your metabolism long term is a way of life, and can be difficult.

+1

I have on been at this since April 2015, but can attest to realizing that this must be a LONG term play and not the quick fix low carb/Paleo promises (I came from this mindset). I have given myself 5 years.

I have noticed with myself and my clients that changing a body from stress/emergency driven system to energy generative system does need a lot of fructose/sucrose. When I have pushed and forced my metabolism up with out proper reserves and without enough calories, I have crashed and had to again reboot. Long and slow seems to be the best for me.

Anyway, feeling your pain. Wishing you the best.

 

[Tarmander]

+1

I have on been at this since April 2015, but can attest to realizing that this must be a LONG term play and not the quick fix low carb/Paleo promises (I came from this mindset). I have given myself 5 years.

I have noticed with myself and my clients that changing a body from stress/emergency driven system to energy generative system does need a lot of fructose/sucrose. When I have pushed and forced my metabolism up with out proper reserves and without enough calories, I have crashed and had to again reboot. Long and slow seems to be the best for me.

Anyway, feeling your pain. Wishing you the best.

Us long timers! Doesn't it feel great when you figure something out and you feel that incremental improvement? Few of those a year is all I need.

 

[marsaday]

First thing first. This experience is VERY positive and you should see it this way, even though you have crashed a bit. It shows your metabolism has the ability to get back on top of things.

I would recommend you read Dr Blanchards book on thyroid treatment.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Functional...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=JBZJXRGZ5J5C96JMN836

Basically the main message from his experience is that most people use far too much T3 in relation to T4. I myself have found this very thing for myself. LESS T3 is much better than more.

So you added T3 to your T4 and after a day / 12h's you had switched off your own production via lowering TSH. This is common and usually takes place of a longer period of time.

All you need to do is try using a tiny dose of T3 mixed with your T4 and see how you get on. This means cutting a 25mcg T3 tablet in an 1/8th. This is the smallest i can cut. So i would try this first and see how you get on. It will = approx 3mcg T3. Take this in the morning.

Also experiment with taking the T4 4h's before bedtime. T4 will be much more effective this way. Read the book to get more info on this.

 

[lollipop]

Us long timers! Doesn't it feel great when you figure something out and you feel that incremental improvement? Few of those a year is all I need.

YES @Tarmander it does Party time - lol.

The other day I circled back around to tracking my biomarkers for a few days to see where I was at and measured 98.3 temps in the day!!! Woot! First time since I began have I had a temp that high - started at 95•, 96• - after three or four months was at 97• which seemed like a win at the time. I am trying to do this without thyroid and using diet, sucrose/fructose, coffee, occasional aspirin, and regular progesterone as my main tools atm. I also use occasionally: niacinimide, Haidut's Vit e, Vit k2, lapodin.

Thank you for the acknowledgement

@MyUsernameHere

 

[Tarmander]

YES @Tarmander it does :) Party time - lol.

The other day I circled back around to tracking my biomarkers for a few days to see where I was at and measured 98.3 temps in the day!!! Woot! First time since I began have I had a temp that high - started at 95•, 96• - after three or four months was at 97• which seemed like a win at the time. I am trying to do this without thyroid and using diet, sucrose/fructose, coffee, occasional aspirin, and regular progesterone as my main tools atm. I also use occasionally: niacinimide, Haidut's Vit e, Vit k2, lapodin.

Thank you for the acknowledgement

@MyUsernameHere

That is awesome! What a great improvement, and a good trend upwards. I remember having something similar where I tested my temperature and had to recheck because it was in the high 98s. Work stress will still lower my temps, but when I don't have that and I get a nice high reading, I do a little dance!

 

[James_001]

I'va had very similar experiences, unfortunately this high metabolic state does not last for me. I was using t3 only for awhile and woke up one week feeling great, for some reason I could only maintain this state for a week before I crashed again.

 

[tara]

I know there was that body temp reset guy, can't remember his name, which showed that very short term thyroid supplementation doesn't affect longer term output. I'm pretty sure he was using T2 though so no idea there.

Richfield? I thought he used T3 temporarily during initial reset, but not certain.

I added 15 mcg of T3 to my usual 50 mcg of T4 throughout the day and by the evening I was transformed.

Speculating, maybe you could avoid the rebound by trying smaller amounts, so it doesn't trigger your endogenous defence mechanisms? You maybe don't need to have enough energy to be bouncing around, though I sure miss having energy like that too. I'm trying to figure this out too. I'd be happy with a gentle upward trend myself. I started at (uneven) pieces less than 1mcg, no big effect, but maybe a subtle one. After a while tried 2-3 mcg doses - I had one good day the first time I took as much as 3-4 of those doses (probably 8-10 mcg total for the day on top of my NDT). Then down again the next days.

 

[ecstatichamster]

No Richfield isn't pro thyroid st all. He doesn't editor mend crept to get started maybe once or twice.

 

[Tarmander]

Richfield? I thought he used T3 temporarily during initial reset, but not certain.

LowTemp

I think this is it

 

[tara]

No Richfield isn't pro thyroid st all.

LowTemp

I think this is it

His story in that link confirms he used T3 for a couple of days during his initial reset, and I think it is saying some T4 too.
But he didn't just let the decompensation happen afterwards - he was persistent about getting his temps back up by various means any time they fell.

 

[sprinter]

Doesn't Ray Peat recommend that some people take 3-4mcg of t3 every couple hours if it makes you feel wonderful and warms you up? While making sure you eat enough sugar, vitamins, and minerals? Maybe some t4 to get you through the night? More in the winter? Why wouldn't OP take more t3?

 

[Tarmander]

His story in that link confirms he used T3 for a couple of days during his initial reset, and I think it is saying some T4 too.
But he didn't just let the decompensation happen afterwards - he was persistent about getting his temps back up by various means any time they fell.

I was thinking of Dan when I mentioned T2. Just do a search in the document for "T2"

 

[tara]

I was thinking of Dan when I mentioned T2. Just do a search in the document for "T2"

OK. Yes, I see what you mean. I haven't learned about the effects of T2.

Richfield's approach conflicts with my suggestion about lower doses of T3. He thinks too low a dose has problems of it's own that could make recovery harder, IIUC.
I wouldn't know who is more right, and maybe it varies by context.

 

[Makrosky]

It is probably more likely that you simply burned through your available glycogen and minerals. This is very natural. The car slows down when it gets low on fuel. This concept is something I have learned from years of messing around with peat supplements. The more you push your metabolism, the more it slows itself down to compensate for the lack of usable materials. Increasing your metabolism long term is a way of life, and can be difficult. I feel your pain with the compensation, it can make you feel hopeless.

Hey Tarmander,

People tend to think it is only the lack of calories/nutrients that set the brakes on when using thyroid. I think, and this is a speculation, I can't prove or disprove it, that it is not only that. If your liver and kidneys, lymph system, etc... cannot clear all the metabolic detritus a high metabolism produces, they are gonna halt the metabolism no matter how many nutrients and glycogen you have. Don't you think so ?

 

[Tarmander]

Hey Tarmander,

People tend to think it is only the lack of calories/nutrients that set the brakes on when using thyroid. I think, and this is a speculation, I can't prove or disprove it, that it is not only that. If your liver and kidneys, lymph system, etc... cannot clear all the metabolic detritus a high metabolism produces, they are gonna halt the metabolism no matter how many nutrients and glycogen you have. Don't you think so ?

Definitely could be. Theoretically, as your metabolism raises to account for all these nutrients, those detox systems should raise too. But you get into pragmatic challenges, like maybe you are in a meeting and can't get to the restroom which slows the whole thing down. I have some experiments with carb loading and it's not like pouring gasoline on a fire. Your body has a hard stop where more carbs just don't continue to get burned. The body to car analogy breaks down because in a car you can just keep putting more fuel in and you know the exact mechanics that break down over time (oil, trans fluid, etc).

The reason I say its long term in the post above is because its is analogous to wood working, or some type of artistry. You get better at being a body. You learn the signs. The people who come in and ask for problem fixes...well that can be helpful, but be honest, how often is it? How often does someone say "Hey I am XYZ, I live like ABC, I am experiencing this bad thing, how do I fix?" and then get an answer that solves their problem? From my experience, not very often.

What normally happens is they get some suggestions, they try some things, and something works...so they get a small, pretty unsatisfying improvement. But an improvement nonetheless. If they are smart and want to continue they keep hacking away at it, on and on, until they look back over years and think "wow how did I live like THAT?"

What do you think? Have you found that your metabolism is slowed down quite a bit by these metabolic byproducts?