Thyroid Supplement

[Kemby]

I realise that Thyroid-S is less favourable but I have received mine today and will use the 120 grains I have then move on to another brand.

They have 38mcg T4 and 9mcg T3. I was going to start with 1/2 a grain once a day with breakfast. In other words 4.5 mcg T3.

http://www.longnaturalhealth.com/sites/ ... dHowTo.pdf This talks about a different product so the dosages will be different.

Anyone else here used Thyroid-S in the past? What dosage did you start with?

Thanks

EDIT: Right it looks like 4-5mcg is a good starting dose according to Mr Peat so 1/2 a grain as above slowly working up (Very slowly after Chrarlies stark warnings)

Any thoughts welcome

 

[charlie]

Definitely go slow, the stuff is powerful.

 

[trialrun]

well..I got my thyroid tests back, and it looks like I probably shouldn't be taking a thyroid supplement. It's perplexing, as my temps are stubbornly low, and I do feel less anxiety with some Cynoplus. Perhaps I'll have to look into adrenal issues instead?

T3 140 ng/dL 71-180
T3 Free 4.1 pg/mL 2.0-4.4
T3 Uptake 33 % 24-39
RT3 Serum 33.5 ng/dL 13.5-34.2
T4 10.7 ug/dL 4.5-12.0
T4 Free(Index) 3.5 (RANGE: 1.2-4.9)
T4 Free(Direct) 1.63 ng/dL 0.82-1.77
TSH .209 uIU/mL 0.150-4.500
TPO (Ab) 8 IU/mL 0-34
Antithyroglobulin Ab <20 0-40

No antibody issues, so that's good. T3, Free T3, T4, Free T4, and Reverse T3 are all in upper ranges with TSH extremely low. (Cynoplus wasn't taken the morning of blood draw).

 

[narouz]

well..I got my thyroid tests back, and it looks like I probably shouldn't be taking a thyroid supplement. It's perplexing, as my temps are stubbornly low, and I do feel less anxiety with some Cynoplus. Perhaps I'll have to look into adrenal issues instead?

T3 140 ng/dL 71-180
T3 Free 4.1 pg/mL 2.0-4.4
T3 Uptake 33 % 24-39
RT3 Serum 33.5 ng/dL 13.5-34.2
T4 10.7 ug/dL 4.5-12.0
T4 Free(Index) 3.5 (RANGE: 1.2-4.9)
T4 Free(Direct) 1.63 ng/dL 0.82-1.77
TSH .209 uIU/mL 0.150-4.500
TPO (Ab) 8 IU/mL 0-34
Antithyroglobulin Ab <20 0-40

No antibody issues, so that's good. T3, Free T3, T4, Free T4, and Reverse T3 are all in upper ranges with TSH extremely low. (Cynoplus wasn't taken the morning of blood draw).

trialrun-

I go to a doctor about thyroid problems,
and he did these tests too.

My temperatures never improved very much
even after a year under his dosages of Armour.
My TSH was, at lowest, a little under 1.0.

Peat has said that TSH is somewhat helpful but not decisive in figuring out thyroid dosage.
And he has said TSH levels should be as close to Zero as possible.

I think my TSH was about .7
when my temps were still in the 97's and low 98's sometimes,
and when my pulse was in the 60's to low 70's.

So I've recently upped my dosage slightly
and have seen my temps climb up into the high 98's with greater frequency
and my pulse up to 75-80ish.

 

[cliff]

Blood test aren't really that great for diagnosing low metabolism, if temps/pulse are low even when eating the right foods that's a much better indicator of whether you need thyroid or not.

 

[trialrun]

Thanks for the comparative info narouz.

Cliff: I disagree. Looking at my results as a whole (not just TSH), it shows:

-high T3, and high T4. (still within normal range, but no deficiency)
-high free T3 and free T4 (thyroid hormones floating around unbound and unconverted)
-high reverse T3 (body trying to convert excess T4 into RT3)
-very low TSH (little to no pituitary stimulation for more hormones)

All of this viewed together not only shows that there is no obvious difficency or elevated levels for thyroid (yay!).

But it also indicates I should *not* need more thyroid.

So yes my symptoms and temp/pulse measurements indicate I still have low metabolism, but these tests make it very obvious that the cause is not from a lack of thyroid hormones.

So now I need to look into what other factors could be impeding the cellular utilization of all those hormones. Aldosterone issues, cortisol issues, something else?

Based on the blood test it would seem foolish to throw more thyroid supplementation at it. Like putting more gas in a car that's already got plenty.

 

[charlie]

trialrun, have you run this by Ray Peat? Would be interesting to see what he says about this.

 

[nwo2012]

Thanks for the comparative info narouz.

Cliff: I disagree. Looking at my results as a whole (not just TSH), it shows:

-high T3, and high T4. (still within normal range, but no deficiency)
-high free T3 and free T4 (thyroid hormones floating around unbound and unconverted)
-high reverse T3 (body trying to convert excess T4 into RT3)
-very low TSH (little to no pituitary stimulation for more hormones)

All of this viewed together not only shows that there is no obvious difficency or elevated levels for thyroid (yay!).

But it also indicates I should *not* need more thyroid.

So yes my symptoms and temp/pulse measurements indicate I still have low metabolism, but these tests make it very obvious that the cause is not from a lack of thyroid hormones.

So now I need to look into what other factors could be impeding the cellular utilization of all those hormones. Aldosterone issues, cortisol issues, something else?

Based on the blood test it would seem foolish to throw more thyroid supplementation at it. Like putting more gas in a car that's already got plenty.

You are both correct and incorrect. And the reason for that is that none of these results show what is going actually going on within the cell and the mitochondria. This is why Dr Broda Barnes said many times that blood tests are pretty much useless. It doesnt matter how many more fancy tests they 'invent' (a great financial motive), symptoms are the best way to diagnose thyroid function. So saying those tests make it 'obvious' your metabolism is not low due to your thyroid is not correct.

 

[nwo2012]

trialrun, have you run this by Ray Peat? Would be interesting to see what he says about this.

Good old PeatPhone.

RP (in direct response to these blood 'results' and my suggestion that they do NOT indicate optimal thyroid function)

Yes, I don't pay as much attention to the T3 and T4 as to functional indications, especially the Achilles relaxation rate.

 

[trialrun]

Thanks for the comparative info narouz.

Cliff: I disagree. Looking at my results as a whole (not just TSH), it shows:

-high T3, and high T4. (still within normal range, but no deficiency)
-high free T3 and free T4 (thyroid hormones floating around unbound and unconverted)
-high reverse T3 (body trying to convert excess T4 into RT3)
-very low TSH (little to no pituitary stimulation for more hormones)

All of this viewed together not only shows that there is no obvious difficency or elevated levels for thyroid (yay!).

But it also indicates I should *not* need more thyroid.

So yes my symptoms and temp/pulse measurements indicate I still have low metabolism, but these tests make it very obvious that the cause is not from a lack of thyroid hormones.

So now I need to look into what other factors could be impeding the cellular utilization of all those hormones. Aldosterone issues, cortisol issues, something else?

Based on the blood test it would seem foolish to throw more thyroid supplementation at it. Like putting more gas in a car that's already got plenty.

You are both correct and incorrect. And the reason for that is that none of these results show what is going actually going on within the cell and the mitochondria. This is why Dr Broda Barnes said many times that blood tests are pretty much useless. It doesnt matter how many more fancy tests they 'invent' (a great financial motive), symptoms are the best way to diagnose thyroid function. So saying those tests make it 'obvious' your metabolism is not low due to your thyroid is not correct.

I'm not sure I understand the negative response to testing. I agree it cannot alone be used to make a diagnosis or treatment decision, however to ignore the test results and continue to pump more thyroid supplements don't look like they would do me any good. I agree nwo2012 that my next investigation needs to be why my cells aren't making use of all those flowing hormones (which the testing shows clearly are abundantly available for use).

While it would have been wonderful to say: "here's the magic pill that will make it better", at least in my case that would not appear to be the answer. So if any of you have ideas of things to pursue for further investigation for helping the body to make use of abundantly available thyroid hormones, I'd be happy to see that discussion.

Otherwise, I guess I'm at least thankful to know that thyroid supplement isn't going to be my answer, so I don't waste more effort chasing that white rabbit.

 

[nwo2012]

Thanks for the comparative info narouz.

Cliff: I disagree. Looking at my results as a whole (not just TSH), it shows:

-high T3, and high T4. (still within normal range, but no deficiency)
-high free T3 and free T4 (thyroid hormones floating around unbound and unconverted)
-high reverse T3 (body trying to convert excess T4 into RT3)
-very low TSH (little to no pituitary stimulation for more hormones)

All of this viewed together not only shows that there is no obvious difficency or elevated levels for thyroid (yay!).

But it also indicates I should *not* need more thyroid.

So yes my symptoms and temp/pulse measurements indicate I still have low metabolism, but these tests make it very obvious that the cause is not from a lack of thyroid hormones.

So now I need to look into what other factors could be impeding the cellular utilization of all those hormones. Aldosterone issues, cortisol issues, something else?

Based on the blood test it would seem foolish to throw more thyroid supplementation at it. Like putting more gas in a car that's already got plenty.

You are both correct and incorrect. And the reason for that is that none of these results show what is going actually going on within the cell and the mitochondria. This is why Dr Broda Barnes said many times that blood tests are pretty much useless. It doesnt matter how many more fancy tests they 'invent' (a great financial motive), symptoms are the best way to diagnose thyroid function. So saying those tests make it 'obvious' your metabolism is not low due to your thyroid is not correct.

I'm not sure I understand the negative response to testing. I agree it cannot alone be used to make a diagnosis or treatment decision, however to ignore the test results and continue to pump more thyroid supplements don't look like they would do me any good. I agree nwo2012 that my next investigation needs to be why my cells aren't making use of all those flowing hormones (which the testing shows clearly are abundantly available for use).

While it would have been wonderful to say: "here's the magic pill that will make it better", at least in my case that would not appear to be the answer. So if any of you have ideas of things to pursue for further investigation for helping the body to make use of abundantly available thyroid hormones, I'd be happy to see that discussion.

Otherwise, I guess I'm at least thankful to know that thyroid supplement isn't going to be my answer, so I don't waste more effort chasing that white rabbit.

No negativity meant. But Im saying as RP says, the blood test results do not necessarily mean your thyroid is functioning correctly as they can not be replied on. Of course as I said we also dont know what is happening in the cells. But again the blood results can not be relied on, you may still need to supplement thyroid. However you possibly need to try other tests, functional ones such as achilles tendon reflex.

(which the testing shows clearly are abundantly available for use)

No this is not correct. Dr Ray Peat, and Dr Broda Barnes before him, perfectly understand what these blood tests are supposed to represent but also know that they do not do this accurately. Whereas you seem to assume that these tests show exactly what they are meant to show. Wrong, wrong , wrong!

Im not trying to be negative or rude but you need to grasp this basic fact, THOSE BLOOD TESTS DO NOT MEAN THAT YOUR THYROID IS WORKING PERFECTLY OR YOU HAVE AN ABUNDANCE OF THYROID HORMONES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[trialrun]

I understand we have our basal temperature testing and pulse rate measurement tests thanks to the work of Dr Broda Barnes in large part due to how he felt it was better than the blood testing being done at that time...

Which was 40 years ago.

We test more than TSH now, and have considerable databases and computer systems for putting together true reference ranges from healthy individuals across wide populations. We have international endocrinologist committees and peer published papers that we share on this global network called the Internet.

I will continue to use the basal temp and pulse measurements Broda Barnes pioneered because I like them and they are simple to measure and compare with others. However, I have no reason to turn my back on the 40 years of progress that has been made since his time.

Is there a more current study or reason you feel blood testing is completely without merit, or not to be believed?

 

[Kris]

Could you give me some advice regarding thyroid supplements? Which one to take? I don't have any symptoms really, other than waking up tired in the morning at times. My pulse is around 85, but my temperature is scarily low. Today I measured several times and it was like 96 or even 95, like I am going to hibernate or something! Can living on high altitude, 6000 feet, have an impact on our body temperature?

 

[nwo2012]

I understand we have our basal temperature testing and pulse rate measurement tests thanks to the work of Dr Broda Barnes in large part due to how he felt it was better than the blood testing being done at that time...

Which was 40 years ago.

We test more than TSH now, and have considerable databases and computer systems for putting together true reference ranges from healthy individuals across wide populations. We have international endocrinologist committees and peer published papers that we share on this global network called the Internet.

I will continue to use the basal temp and pulse measurements Broda Barnes pioneered because I like them and they are simple to measure and compare with others. However, I have no reason to turn my back on the 40 years of progress that has been made since his time.

Is there a more current study or reason you feel blood testing is completely without merit, or not to be believed?

I think the current state of modern medicine is proof enough. I have seen many patients over the years with many different blood tests which do not match the person and their symptoms. Blood tests are merely a 'snapshot' of what is happening outside of the cells at any particular time. I have seen people with the majority of their liver removed and what is left is either cancerous or cirrhosed yet their Liver Function Tests (LFTs) are perfect. Now that would be ridiculous to say their liver has great function. Let me tell you one of the most obvious cases I have seen of blood tests not matching the person and symptoms. We had a grossly obese female 250kg in weight. She had very cold hands and feet. Arthritic joints. Heart disease. High cholesterol. Her resting pulse was 50 BPM. Her BBT was 35.8C. TSH 0.44 and T3 And T4 high side of normal. Yet she is clearly hypothyroid.

So you are saying that RP basically does not know how to decipher the meaning of the results. Perhaps he is stuck in the era of Broda Barnes and not able to keep up with all the great 'progress' of modern medicine.
Im sorry this is not to poke fun at you or anything but thank you for enlightening me about the marvels of modern medicine. All those experts whose whole 'education' is built upon the completely unproven (and in fact nonsensical) membrane-pump theory must be correct then?

 

[nwo2012]

and have considerable databases and computer systems for putting together true reference ranges from healthy individuals across wide populations.

And who defines these populations as healthy? The fact that a huge number will develop heart disease, cancer, autoimmune diseases, type 2 'diabetes' etc etc still has them classed as 'healthy' in respect to their thyroid function? Most so-called 'expert' endocrinologists don't know very much about the thyroid. I have argued with so-called 'specialists' about fluoride or mercury amalgams and their effects on the thyroid. Or asked them to explain how a person with Hashimoto's thyroiditis can be both hypo and hyperthyroid in the space of a week. Their responses have a strong bovine faecal aroma to them.

 

[GregW]

well..I got my thyroid tests back, and it looks like I probably shouldn't be taking a thyroid supplement. It's perplexing, as my temps are stubbornly low, and I do feel less anxiety with some Cynoplus. Perhaps I'll have to look into adrenal issues instead?

T3 140 ng/dL 71-180
T3 Free 4.1 pg/mL 2.0-4.4
T3 Uptake 33 % 24-39
RT3 Serum 33.5 ng/dL 13.5-34.2
T4 10.7 ug/dL 4.5-12.0
T4 Free(Index) 3.5 (RANGE: 1.2-4.9)
T4 Free(Direct) 1.63 ng/dL 0.82-1.77
TSH .209 uIU/mL 0.150-4.500
TPO (Ab) 8 IU/mL 0-34
Antithyroglobulin Ab <20 0-40

No antibody issues, so that's good. T3, Free T3, T4, Free T4, and Reverse T3 are all in upper ranges with TSH extremely low. (Cynoplus wasn't taken the morning of blood draw).

Having a high rT3 is not good. rT3 purpose is to block T3 during times of stress. If you were taking cynoplus in the two week period before this test then your T4/T3 numbers are inflated.

"Yes, it's probably induced by stress, with cortisol inducing the type of deiodinase that makes the inactive rT3. A low sugar diet can cause chronically high cortisol. If you are eating enough fruit and protein, I think the T3 of natural thyroid will help to correct the stress/inflammatory metabolism that is connected with the reverse T3." RP quote from Danny Roddy's page.

I also have a high rT3. Any supplement with T4 makes my condition worse.

 

[trialrun]

well..I got my thyroid tests back, and it looks like I probably shouldn't be taking a thyroid supplement. It's perplexing, as my temps are stubbornly low, and I do feel less anxiety with some Cynoplus. Perhaps I'll have to look into adrenal issues instead?

T3 140 ng/dL 71-180
T3 Free 4.1 pg/mL 2.0-4.4
T3 Uptake 33 % 24-39
RT3 Serum 33.5 ng/dL 13.5-34.2
T4 10.7 ug/dL 4.5-12.0
T4 Free(Index) 3.5 (RANGE: 1.2-4.9)
T4 Free(Direct) 1.63 ng/dL 0.82-1.77
TSH .209 uIU/mL 0.150-4.500
TPO (Ab) 8 IU/mL 0-34
Antithyroglobulin Ab <20 0-40

No antibody issues, so that's good. T3, Free T3, T4, Free T4, and Reverse T3 are all in upper ranges with TSH extremely low. (Cynoplus wasn't taken the morning of blood draw).

Having a high rT3 is not good. rT3 purpose is to block T3 during times of stress. If you were taking cynoplus in the two week period before this test then your T4/T3 numbers are inflated.

"Yes, it's probably induced by stress, with cortisol inducing the type of deiodinase that makes the inactive rT3. A low sugar diet can cause chronically high cortisol. If you are eating enough fruit and protein, I think the T3 of natural thyroid will help to correct the stress/inflammatory metabolism that is connected with the reverse T3." RP quote from Danny Roddy's page.

I also have a high rT3. Any supplement with T4 makes my condition worse.

Thanks Greg, that's a good point, and I agree. My next area of focus needs to be on stress levels and cortisol. I'm looking into some cortisol/adrenal support supplements, and reading up on the 24hr cortisol saliva testing. Going to see if I can cut my daily cup of coffee for a few months to see if I feel better (though this one will be a challenge for sure!)

 

[narouz]

I understand we have our basal temperature testing and pulse rate measurement tests thanks to the work of Dr Broda Barnes in large part due to how he felt it was better than the blood testing being done at that time...

Which was 40 years ago.

We test more than TSH now, and have considerable databases and computer systems for putting together true reference ranges from healthy individuals across wide populations. We have international endocrinologist committees and peer published papers that we share on this global network called the Internet.

I will continue to use the basal temp and pulse measurements Broda Barnes pioneered because I like them and they are simple to measure and compare with others. However, I have no reason to turn my back on the 40 years of progress that has been made since his time.

Is there a more current study or reason you feel blood testing is completely without merit, or not to be believed?

trialrun--

You neatly summarize the reasons for believing the current consensus views
about thyroid and diagnosis and testing.

I agree with you that it is hard to DISbelieve that orthodoxy.

Yet...I do.

 

[narouz]

well..I got my thyroid tests back, and it looks like I probably shouldn't be taking a thyroid supplement. It's perplexing, as my temps are stubbornly low, and I do feel less anxiety with some Cynoplus. Perhaps I'll have to look into adrenal issues instead?

T3 140 ng/dL 71-180
T3 Free 4.1 pg/mL 2.0-4.4
T3 Uptake 33 % 24-39
RT3 Serum 33.5 ng/dL 13.5-34.2
T4 10.7 ug/dL 4.5-12.0
T4 Free(Index) 3.5 (RANGE: 1.2-4.9)
T4 Free(Direct) 1.63 ng/dL 0.82-1.77
TSH .209 uIU/mL 0.150-4.500
TPO (Ab) 8 IU/mL 0-34
Antithyroglobulin Ab <20 0-40

No antibody issues, so that's good. T3, Free T3, T4, Free T4, and Reverse T3 are all in upper ranges with TSH extremely low. (Cynoplus wasn't taken the morning of blood draw).

Having a high rT3 is not good. rT3 purpose is to block T3 during times of stress. If you were taking cynoplus in the two week period before this test then your T4/T3 numbers are inflated.

"Yes, it's probably induced by stress, with cortisol inducing the type of deiodinase that makes the inactive rT3. A low sugar diet can cause chronically high cortisol. If you are eating enough fruit and protein, I think the T3 of natural thyroid will help to correct the stress/inflammatory metabolism that is connected with the reverse T3." RP quote from Danny Roddy's page.

I also have a high rT3. Any supplement with T4 makes my condition worse.

Thanks Greg, that's a good point, and I agree. My next area of focus needs to be on stress levels and cortisol. I'm looking into some cortisol/adrenal support supplements, and reading up on the 24hr cortisol saliva testing. Going to see if I can cut my daily cup of coffee for a few months to see if I feel better (though this one will be a challenge for sure!)

trialrun--

I too went down the Adrenal Fatigue path for a long while.
Danny Roddy had a very insightful and funny article on the subject a while back:
"The Road to Nowhere Part II: Thinking You Have Adrenal Fatigue"
http://http://www.dannyroddy.com/2012/4/16...part-ii-thinking-you-have-adrenal-fatigu.html

 

[j.]

for what is worth, i believe the tests mean something. i have 6 months of peating. i just had a thyroid test were my TSH was like 1.7, which is the lowest it's been in 5 years or so (i didn't do tests before). 3 months ago, it was 3.3. so my feelings of improvement where matched by an improvement in test numbers. by the way, i'm in my late 20s and don't take thyroid, i'm trying to see how far the diet can take me.