TUDCA

[michael94]

decreases rates of lipid peroxidation

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9655521

This finding suggests that TUDC does not function as an antioxidant per se but may prevent lipid peroxidation caused by TDC. In conclusion, only in the presence of iron ions, hydrophobic bile acids may enhance lipid peroxidation. TUDC has no antioxidant activity per se but may counter the TDC-induced increase in iron-stimulated lipid peroxidation.

interesting mice study demonstrating some coool effects

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26681941

Conclusions. We found that TUDCA reversed abnormal autophagy, reduced ER stress, and restored insulin sensitivity in the liver of obese mice and that glycolipid metabolism disorder was also improved via the restoration of defective hepatic autophagy.

neuroprotective too

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26379056

Our findings sustain the efficacy of tauroursodeoxycholic acid administration in vivo, suggesting it would be a good candidate for the pharmacological treatment of degenerative diseases coursing with retinal ganglion cell loss.

May be something worth trying if you have a sluggish/damaged liver and struggled after jumping into a high sugar / ~no fat diet, among the usual recommendations like magnesium/caffeine/k2

 

[Ras]

Has anyone tried this substance, or researched it further?

 

[whodathunkit]

I've actually been trying this now for a week. Plan to go for at least a month. No results yet. Lotta stuff up in the air right now.

It's pretty potent and can stress you out. It seems to be stimulatory and is supposed to help conversion of T4 to T3.

Keep in mind if you do try it, DON'T DRINK ALCOHOL. It's supposed to be liver protective if taken *after* imbibing, but will cause damage if taken before or during imbibing. How far in advance you can take TUDCA I have no idea. Since I'm taking it twice per day I'm not taking any chances and just won't drink any alcohol until I haven't taken any for several days to a week at least.

 

[Ras]

I've actually been trying this now for a week. Plan to go for at least a month. No results yet. Lotta stuff up in the air right now.

It's pretty potent and can stress you out. It seems to be stimulatory and is supposed to help conversion of T4 to T3.

Keep in mind if you do try it, DON'T DRINK ALCOHOL. It's supposed to be liver protective if taken *after* imbibing, but will cause damage if taken before or during imbibing. How far in advance you can take TUDCA I have no idea. Since I'm taking it twice per day I'm not taking any chances and just won't drink any alcohol until I haven't taken any for several days to a week at least.

Thanks for the thorough reply.

 

[Pointless]

I've tried this for months and didn't notice much. I have cholestasis and gallstones.

 

[Koveras]

Seems like an appropriate therapeutic dose (15-20 mg/kg or up to 1750 mg/day) gets cost prohibitive.

 

[whodathunkit]

Seems like an appropriate therapeutic dose (15-20 mg/kg or up to 1750 mg/day) gets cost prohibitive.

From what I've read that's way, way too much for the average user. That dose was used on people with severe cirrohsis or some other pathological condition they were experimentally treating with TUDCA. For reducing ER stress and liver protection, 500mg/day is plenty, and 250mg/day would probably be fine.

I'm finding I'm actually getting a nice little boost out of TUDCA, and am wondering now if it doesn't work in much the same way as Ray says coffee works. And without the side effect of AChE inhibition that caffeine brings, that rattles some of us so much. I'm still looking into it and not sure if my fogbrain will be able to connect the dots, but if TUDCA turns out to be for me what I'm thinking it might, I might not have to worry about the demon coffee any more. That's a pretty big if at this point, but right now I'm encouraged. Only time will tell.

Also, I don't think TUDCA is something that should be taken long term. In some studies they've had people take it for up to a year but for everyday users it might be best to cycle it, like a couple months on, couple months off, or similar.

 

[Koveras]

From what I've read that's way, way too much for the average user. That dose was used on people with severe cirrohsis or some other pathological condition they were experimentally treating with TUDCA. For reducing ER stress and liver protection, 500mg/day is plenty, and 250mg/day would probably be fine.

Depends I guess, lower doses over a longer time frame may be effective.

"10-13mg daily has once been shown to improve liver regenesis rates in a clinically ill population, and may be the lowest estimate of an active oral dose. When looking at improving bile salt composition, a dose around 15-20mg/kg bodyweight TUDCA seems best according to one study.

Benefits have been seen at 1,750mg daily for muscle and liver insulin sensitivity, which is the highest dose used for treatment of fatty liver disease."

"TUDCA, at 500mg or 750mg daily, was associated with a lower AST serum level over 6 months, and may improve hepatitis."

"500, 1000, and 1500mg of TUDCA were tested over 6 months to see dose-response effects. There was a insignificant dose-response, with 1500mg being the most effective at reducing liver enzyme levels but 500mg being most economical; total cholesterol was reduced with 1000 and 1500mg."

"Over 2 months at 750mg TUDCA daily, liver enzymes decreased in the range of 48-51% in a group of persons with primary biliary cirrhosis and TUDCA was more effective than UDCA at these reductions."

"Insulin sensitivity was increased in obese but non-diabetic men and women after 1,750mg daily ingestion of TUDCA for 4 weeks. Muscle and liver tissue became more insulin sensitive, but adipose (fat) tissue did not. The degree of improvement was approximately 30% improvement, which rivals current anti-diabetic pharmaceuticals such as thiazolinediones and metformin."

Tauroursodeoxycholic Acid - Scientific Review on Usage, Dosage, Side Effects | Examine.com

 

[whodathunkit]

@Koveras, yes, good facts, but I guess my thing was

500, 1000, and 1500mg of TUDCA were tested over 6 months to see dose-response effects. There was a insignificant dose-response, with 1500mg being the most effective at reducing liver enzyme levels but 500mg being most economical; total cholesterol was reduced with 1000 and 1500mg."

(bolding emphasis mine)
With the economics of it and the fact that it's quite potent, at least for someone like me still working with a compromised metabolism, it seems that at least not jumping straight into the highest physiologic dose is probably the safest and smartest thing for anyone to do. I know someone with some big-time metabolic and mitochondrial problems who is having a tough time with TUDCA, and I'm just now myself starting to see the real boost. I've been at it for over a week and last week wasn't a great one. Not all due to TUDCA, but I can see in retrospect it played a part. It can precipitate detox reactions, etc.

 

[TubZy]

I use this stuff when using anything liver toxic it's the only stuff that actually works- NAC , milk thistle etc didn't do ***t for me

 

[haidut]

TUDCA is not much different than taurine when it comes to liver or metabolic effects, as it is in fact a taurine-conjugated bile acid. Taking taurine will stimulate its synthesis, as well as the synthesis of all other bile acids. All stimulators of bile acids or bile acids themselves will have a pro-metabolic effect as activating the bile acid receptor increases conversion of T4 into T3. That is how taurine helps diabetes, CVD, cholesterol, etc.
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/how-pregnenolone-and-progesterone-raise-metabolism.7969/
How Taurine May Treat Diabetes

While it is interesting to experiment with, if you look at the animal studies that compared it to taurine you will see that it does not have that much more benefit to offer. Taurine has other benefits too that TUDCA does not - i.e. GABA agonism and decreasing catecholamines.

 

[TubZy]

TUDCA is not much different than taurine when it comes to liver or metabolic effects, as it is in fact a taurine-conjugated bile acid. Taking taurine will stimulate its synthesis, as well as the synthesis of all other bile acids. All stimulators of bile acids or bile acids themselves will have a pro-metabolic effect as activating the bile acid receptor increases conversion of T4 into T3. That is how taurine helps diabetes, CVD, cholesterol, etc.
How Pregnenolone And Progesterone Raise Metabolism
How Taurine May Treat Diabetes

While it is interesting to experiment with, if you look at the animal studies that compared it to taurine you will see that it does not have that much more benefit to offer. Taurine has other benefits too that TUDCA does not - i.e. GABA agonism and decreasing catecholamines.

My impression was the tudca is more fast acting and protective in the liver department as I have seen it could take taurine months at way higher doses to improve liver.

That is why I use taurine year round and tudca at times with anything that is potentially liver toxic. But you may have changed my mind.

 

[haidut]

My impression was the tudca is more fast acting and protective in the liver department as I have seen it could take taurine months at way higher doses to improve liver.

That is why I use taurine year round and tudca at times with anything that is potentially liver toxic. But you may have changed my mind.

TUDCA is just taurine conjugated with UDCA. Look at the structure of UDCA and its properties.
Ursodeoxycholic acid - Wikipedia

It inhibits cholesterol absorption, which is not good. On the flip side, chemically it has a saturated steroid structure and seems to antagonize ERb.
Abstract 4599: Bile acids modulate estrogen receptor β signaling through nongenomic actions in colorectal cancer | Cancer Research

Bottom line - in vivo studies it did not prove superior to taurine for liver conditions and is much more expensive.

 

[TubZy]

TUDCA is just taurine conjugated with UDCA. Look at the structure of UDCA and its properties.
Ursodeoxycholic acid - Wikipedia

It inhibits cholesterol absorption, which is not good. On the flip side, chemically it has a saturated steroid structure and seems to antagonize ERb.
Abstract 4599: Bile acids modulate estrogen receptor β signaling through nongenomic actions in colorectal cancer | Cancer Research

Bottom line - in vivo studies it did not prove superior to taurine for liver conditions and is much more expensive.

Interesting thanks. I did read about the cholesterol aspect which I didn't like. I have seen you mention anywhere from 2 to 5 grams daily for taurine. for year around, what dose should be sufficient for liver health? does it matter split doses or all at once?

 

[whodathunkit]

UDCA is not much different than taurine when it comes to liver or metabolic effects, as it is in fact a taurine-conjugated bile acid. Taking taurine will stimulate its synthesis, as well as the synthesis of all other bile acids. All stimulators of bile acids or bile acids themselves will have a pro-metabolic effect as activating the bile acid receptor increases conversion of T4 into T3. That is how taurine helps diabetes, CVD, cholesterol, etc.
How Pregnenolone And Progesterone Raise Metabolism
How Taurine May Treat Diabetes

While it is interesting to experiment with, if you look at the animal studies that compared it to taurine you will see that it does not have that much more benefit to offer. Taurine has other benefits too that TUDCA does not - i.e. GABA agonism and decreasing catecholamines.

For people with more seriously compromised livers, whether these problems are diagnosed or just your garden variety "fatty liver" that many of us seem to be suffering from, taurine by itself is probably not enough. I know, because I've taken both when I was having severe bile- and energy-related gastroparesis issues. TUDCA is more helpful when dealing with gastroparesis (which is caused at least in part by an energy dearth). IIRC I was actually taking taurine (not TUDCA) when I developed gastroparesis, or at least I had taken it recently before the paresis started, so taurine without the UDCA conjugation could have actually been involved in the development of it. Hard to say. Lotta things were screwed then that aren't nearly as screwed now.

UDCA (available only via prescription) is also good for promotion of bile and resolution of gastric movement issues.

Glycine when taken with taurine or TUDCA really seems to help with bile production, too. I've been experimenting lately with TUDCA + glycine, and it seems to work. Maybe also helping by delivering a double whammy to estrogen receptors...?

But again, I think I was taking taurine + glycine around the time I developed gastroparesis issues, so regardless of bile production it doesn't seem to be enough without the actual bile acid to overcome an extreme energy dearth. Or maybe thyroid dearth. Whatever the case may be.

Point being, in the presence of more serious metabolic issues, taurine may not work as advertised. And I know people that actively crash from it.

It inhibits cholesterol absorption, which is not good.

Absorption by what? Cells that need it for various functions, or by the intestines to be excreted if there is for some reason an excess is being produced?

Forgive if I don't use the right terminology here. I know I don't understand physiology as well as you, and my understanding is crude. But as far as I understand right now, absorption can mean at least a couple different things. So a little clarity would be helpful for me, if you can.

 

[TubZy]

For people with more seriously compromised livers, whether these problems are diagnosed or just your garden variety "fatty liver" that many of us seem to be suffering from, taurine by itself is probably not enough. I know, because I've taken both when I was having severe bile- and energy-related gastroparesis issues. TUDCA is more helpful when dealing with gastroparesis (which is caused in part by an energy dearth). IIRC I was actually taking taurine (not TUDCA) when I developed gastroparesis, or at least I had taken it recently be for the paresis started, so taurine without the UDCA conjugation could have actually been involved in the development of it. Hard to say. Lotta things were screwed then that aren't nearly as screwed now.

UDCA (available only via prescription) is also good for promotion of bile and resolution of gastric movement issues.

Glycine when taken with taurine or TUDCA really seems to help with bile production, too. I've been experimenting lately with TUDCA + glycine, and it seems to work. Maybe also helping by delivering a double whammy to estrogen receptors...? But again, I think I was taking taurine + glycine around the time I developed gastroparesis issues, so regardless of bile production it doesn't seem to be enough without the actual bile acid to overcome an extreme energy dearth. Or maybe thyroid dearth.

Point being, in the presence of more serious metabolic issues, taurine may not work as advertised. And I know people that actively crash from it.


Absorption by what? Cells that need it for various functions, or by the intestines to be excreted if there is for some reason an excess is being produced?

Forgive if I don't use the right terminology here. I know I don't understand physiology as well as you, and my understanding is crude. But as far as I understand right now, absorption can mean at least a couple different things. So a little clarity would be helpful for me, if you can.

That was my point as well. I have blood tests showing my enzymes dropping with tudca after being elevated from antibiotic use and AAS. I never seen that with taurine as many BBers and fitness people use taurine all the time. The fact that UDCA alone is pretty powerful and prescription based, adding a taurine molecule to it would just improve it further, I doubt just plain taurine would compete on the same level and would not take the risk. Your liver is not something you want to gamble with.

 

[whodathunkit]

@TubZy, if you don't react negatively to glycine, try taking a little of that with your taurine or TUDCA about a half hour before a meal. I really like it.

 

[haidut]

For people with more seriously compromised livers, whether these problems are diagnosed or just your garden variety "fatty liver" that many of us seem to be suffering from, taurine by itself is probably not enough. I know, because I've taken both when I was having severe bile- and energy-related gastroparesis issues. TUDCA is more helpful when dealing with gastroparesis (which is caused at least in part by an energy dearth). IIRC I was actually taking taurine (not TUDCA) when I developed gastroparesis, or at least I had taken it recently before the paresis started, so taurine without the UDCA conjugation could have actually been involved in the development of it. Hard to say. Lotta things were screwed then that aren't nearly as screwed now.

UDCA (available only via prescription) is also good for promotion of bile and resolution of gastric movement issues.

Glycine when taken with taurine or TUDCA really seems to help with bile production, too. I've been experimenting lately with TUDCA + glycine, and it seems to work. Maybe also helping by delivering a double whammy to estrogen receptors...?

But again, I think I was taking taurine + glycine around the time I developed gastroparesis issues, so regardless of bile production it doesn't seem to be enough without the actual bile acid to overcome an extreme energy dearth. Or maybe thyroid dearth. Whatever the case may be.

Point being, in the presence of more serious metabolic issues, taurine may not work as advertised. And I know people that actively crash from it.


Absorption by what? Cells that need it for various functions, or by the intestines to be excreted if there is for some reason an excess is being produced?

Forgive if I don't use the right terminology here. I know I don't understand physiology as well as you, and my understanding is crude. But as far as I understand right now, absorption can mean at least a couple different things. So a little clarity would be helpful for me, if you can.

It seems to inhibit intestinal cholesterol absorption, which is probably not good. You want the cholesterol to be betabolized and turned into something useful like steroid or a bile acid. That is what taurine does - it stimulates the production of bile acids and that uses up cholesterol. Taurine also upregulates the steroidgenic enzymes 3b-HSD and 17a-HSD, which are vital for the entire steroid cascade. TUDCA does none of these. I am not saying TUDCA does not have benefits, just saying that taurine has been shown to achieve the same effects as TUDCA when taken in sufficient doses. I think 5g of taurine would probably equal the effects of 1g TUDCA.

 

[whodathunkit]

It seems to inhibit intestinal cholesterol absorption, which is probably not good. You want the cholesterol to be betabolized and turned into something useful like steroid or a bile acid.

Right, but a lot of individuals seem to have problems with this, for whatever reason. They can't use the cholesterol properly. Maybe metabolic problems. I dunno. So wouldn't it be better for it to get excreted in that case?

I think 5g of taurine would probably equal the effects of 1g TUDCA.

Experientially, it's not. At least, it wasn't when my energy was severely compromised. I don't seem to need as much of anything these days and in fact only take the TUDCA and glycine once per day with a heavy meal, since I'm unwilling to stop it completely yet and maybe get another gastroparesis attack. Those are Not Fun At All. If my meals are smaller and without a lot of fat that day, I don't take any of it.

That you know of, has the combo of glycine + taurine been shown to be beneficial?

 

[TubZy]

@TubZy, if you don't react negatively to glycine, try taking a little of that with your taurine or TUDCA about a half hour before a meal. I really like it.

I'll try it out, thanks bro. I only used both in isolation.