Unpopular Opinion: I Think Some Of Ray's Ideas Are Just Not Helpful And Actually Make Matters Worse

[CLASH]

I’m going to save you guys the trouble of argueing.

The ideal human diet:

-fruit

-safe tubers and roots depending on individual tolerability

-saturated/ monounsaturated fats: coconut oil, cocoa butter, beef tallow, butter

-seafood

-meats

-dairy depending on tolerability

We are descedants of primates (animals that eat close to a 70% fruit diet), that evolved to eat meat, seafood, tubers and dairy. All other foods are sub par from multiple angles and perspectives. If you disagree you have a high serotonin personality...

 

[MarcelZD]

I’m going to save you guys the trouble of argueing.

The ideal human diet:

-fruit

-safe tubers and roots depending on individual tolerability

-saturated/ monounsaturated fats: coconut oil, cocoa butter, beef tallow, butter

-seafood

-meats

-dairy depending on tolerability

We are descedants of primates (animals that eat close to a 70% fruit diet), that evolved to eat meat, seafood, tubers and dairy. All other foods are sub par from multiple angles and perspectives. If you disagree you have a high serotonin personality...

I think primate diets are rather PUFA heavy. Not that I advocate this for humans.

Eurasian Paleolithic man, too, would probably have eaten lots of nuts and seeds.

 

[Ritchie]

So, even if it started with a rat study - what is your point? He saw some animal evidence, observed that it works for people. What are you talking about with the fibre? He specifically mentions that it is the insoluble fiber in those things that is good, besides some of the antimicrobial compounds in carrots or shoots.



Now, who is the one that doesn't live in the real world and only considers himself? There are many people that have problems with starch. I don't think it is bad, but it makes me cold and borderline hypoglycemic, if I eat it without fat and protein. I know many people that feel the same. It is also wrong to say that there can't possibly be any issue with it, and that there is no evidence for any of the effects Peat mentions. Some starch will always escape digestion (as opposed to sucrose), and that can be a source for persorption or bacterial overgrowth. Peat bothers talking about it because it is a relevant issue for many of the foods we consume in Western countries: Bread, Pasta, bananas, cooled potatoes, undercooked vegetables, etc. It's not a dead issue just because you haven't read the relevant material. Elimination of any resistant starch requires intense cooking, much more than people usually do, and the avoidance of most of our major carbohydrate sources (wheat)- There are dozens of studies showing that increased consumption of resistant starches leads to pathological changes in the colon (lower pH, increased proliferation, LPS).

Food Starch Structure Impacts Gut Microbiome Composition

"IMPORTANCE Dietary starch is a major component in the human diet. A proportion of the starch in our diet escapes digestion in the small intestine and is fermented in the colon. In this study, we use a model of the colon, seeded with porcine feces, in which we investigate the fermentation of a variety of starches with structures typical of those found in foods. We show that the microbial community changes over time in our model colon are highly dependent on the structure of the substrate and how accessible the starch is to colonic microbes. These findings have important implications for how we classify starches reaching the colon and for the design of foods with improved nutritional properties."

"Several structural features have been identified that can lead to starch escaping digestion in the small intestine (SI) and thereby being defined as resistant starch (RS) (5, 9, 10). These features include the following: (i) the native, semicrystalline (double-helical), granular form of starch, such as that found in raw foods, such as bananas; (ii) the partially recrystallized double-helical structures that form when starch is cooked and allowed to cool found, for example, in cold potatoes and stale bread; and (iii) starch which is encapsulated within matrices such as intact plant tissue or processed forms such as pasta, and therefore not available for digestion by small intestinal enzymes (11). It has been shown that starch from these materials is recovered from ileal effluents and therefore is available for fermentation in the colon (9, 12, 13)."
​

Responses in colonic microbial community and gene expression of pigs to a long-term high resistant starch diet

"The possible reason is that the significant decrease of pH value in the colon caused by long-term intake of PRS may result in the death of bacteria, and the accumulation of lipopolysaccharides (LPS). Similarly, the LPS have received increasing attention in rumen acidosis caused by a high concentration (starch) diet because of their role in the inflammatory response of the body (Tao et al., 2014). Although their benefit roles such as improving colonic mucosal integrity and reducing gut apoptosis are well known in humans and animals consuming a high RS diet (Nofrarías et al., 2007), the results of this study suggest that long-term intake of RPS may result in a negative effect on the health of pigs because of the low pH in the hindgut."​

At this point I almost think you're trolling. I have literally just explained the issues with looking at in-vitro studies and animal studies in determining conclusions in the human context (this should be very obvious when attempting to make conclusions about human digestion). Then in an attempt to show some evidence of this issue you have with starch, you have cited an in-vitro pig study (lol), and then a study of factory farmed pigs in china and their digestion of starch. Unreal.
Look, Peat talks a lot about his issues with starch, and bases much, if not all of this rationale, on old rat studies with uncooked starch. Go over his literature and articles, it's no mystery. On the other hand you have plenty of people (65-70% of the worlds population as a conservative estimate) that have issues with or are intolerant to dairy after being weened off their mothers milk. There are mountains of high level human evidence regarding the issues with dairy, even from the coherence of Peat's own framework dairy is problematic, yet Peat very rarely if ever discusses the issues with it (certainly nothing like he talks of starch) and ignores the clear problems, in fact tells people to push through any negative symptoms that they may experience when consuming dairy. You don't see a problem of coherence there? So why does the Peat sphere and Peat himself discuss starch so much with so little evidence of it being an issue and so much evidence of it being positive, and not discuss the clear issues with dairy? Perhaps because that is the paradigm of Peat. Maybe.
Further, of course I acknowledge that there are outliers and that some people do have issues with cooked starch. Just as there are some people that may have issues with oranges, papayas, chocolate, coffee, carrots etc. But while this may be an individual thing there is no real scientific and systemic issue with these foods from a health and nutrition perspective. Not so with dairy. I hope you can grasp the point I'm making here.

As far as the carrots thing, lets look at it.. There is insoluble and soluble fibre in carrots, of which Peat recommends to eat lots of for the effects the fibre has on digestion, elimination of toxins and things such as estrogen etc (of which by the way the vast majority of literature supports, the positive effects of fibre in humans). But then Peat turns around and says to avoid fibre. But carrots in isolation are ok. Why? Because of this rat study you see, it showed positive results from carrots. Then he gave it to his clients and observed good results from the fibre consumption. You don't see this as an issue of coherence? And this is only scratching the surface of the Peat paradigm.
Like I said, there are some gems in Peatland, but there is a lot of in-coherence and bad ideas as well. Ironically the mantra "perceive, think, act" is no more aptly applied than to Peats own writings, recommendations and understanding of science within his paradigm. It's all certainly very entertaining.

 

[Ritchie]

Guys, the work of Ray Peat is not an eternal wisdom.

He built upon others as others build upon those before them.... now it is our turn to build upon his work as we value it so much.

If something is not working for you it is OK because we are all unique and if something will work that is the result of many variables (genes, environment, infections, our dedication...) and so called odds.

Even Ray Peat's opinions and recommendations changed over the years so keep it calm, we all get more and more experiences and wisdom day by day.

The single most important thing is to admit we were wrong and learn, change, update daily...

Agreed.

 

[Kartoffel]

At this point I almost think you're trolling. I have literally just explained the issues with looking at in-vitro studies and animal studies in determining conclusions in the human context (this should be very obvious when attempting to make conclusions about human digestion). Then in an attempt to show some evidence of this issue you have with starch, you have cited an in-vitro pig study (lol), and then a study of factory farmed pigs in china and their digestion of starch. Unreal.

Dude, I'm in no mood to discuss this further with you since you don't have any understanding of the issue, and just repeat yourself with the old "everybody, everywhere eats starch without any problems" nonsense. You don't offer any substance just vague drivel and ad hominem attacks. Pigs digestive tract is remarkably similar to ours and those were just two examples, and even human studies have shown without any doubt that some starch always escapes digestion. No researcher in this area will deny that.

 

[CLASH]

@MarcelZD
I think the chimp diets are probably lower in PUFA, if you consider that the focus of thier diet ideally is ripe fruits as available and that a large majority of thier digestion and energy requirements are focused around hindgut fermentation. So say a chimp is in peak season, theyre diet is most likely 70-80% ripe figs. The seeds from the figs, which house alot of the fat content, are most likely undigested and pass through the stool (this is the purpose of seeds no?) then the fiber from the figs is fermented in the colon into short chain saturated fatty acids. The sugars from the figs and the proteins are absorbed in the stomach and small intestine of the chimp. So you wind up with a high proportion of saturated/ monounsaturated fats to PUFA and a high sugar diet, with a modest amount of protein.

As for eurasian man I think theres 2 points:
1) i think the climate may have been different so the availability of nuts and seeds may not have been so prevalent. I think a focus on big game would have taken center stage. But I’m just a random a**hole on the internet so i’d take this with a kilo of salt

2) I dont think nuts are very digestible overall, i think alot of the nutrients, both macros and micros are not absorbed well or utilized well. I have experienced this personally to some extent.

 

[Peater Piper]

soooooo what is it you disagree with

You said...

"He has never said "no starch." In fact he has actually said he thinks a person should eat as much sugar and starch as possible."

You're accusing others of misrepresenting Peat, but wording it like that makes it sound like he treats sugar (glucose + fructose) and starch on equal footing. He most certainly does not. He's even discouraged the use of starch when good fruit is available. It's probably best to say he thinks starch is better than some other options, but it's not a good option compared to fruit. Of course, none of this means people shouldn't go out and eat starch if they feel well on it, but it's dishonest to act like Peat hasn't offered some general dietary guidelines, with dairy and fruit being his preferred food staples.

 

[TeaRex14]

I've been navigating the whole low A thing, but haven't felt much difference since the initial benefits. I'm thinking I was overloaded on carotenoids from my high colored diet this summer.

The acne on shoulders thing reminds me of my partner. He has multiple signs of vitamin A deficiency, but he's not all that into diet hacking. I will continue to push this on him gently.

That very well could be the case. There's a fine line with tolerable and toxic levels of carotene in my experience. With the exception of an occasional carrot salad, which I don't even eat that much anymore, I avoid most orange tented foods. Except oranges themselves, which ironically, have lower carotene levels then you'd expect.

I've incorporated liver in my diet many different ways, I find pate to be the best way to eat it. I never wake up looking forward to liver day, the taste is meh. But mixed with enough spices and some milk the livery flavor tends to dissipate some, making it tolerable. If he just refuses to flat out eat liver, which I can't say I would blame him lol, you could always try a supplement. Just make sure it's retinyl palmitate and not beta-carotene. I would start slow first to see how he reacts to it. About 30mgs, roughly 6000ius if my memory serve correctly, is a good starting dose. That's approx the same amount you'd fine in about 1.5 oz of beef liver.

 

[somuch4food]

That very well could be the case. There's a fine line with tolerable and toxic levels of carotene in my experience. With the exception of an occasional carrot salad, which I don't even eat that much anymore, I avoid most orange tented foods. Except oranges themselves, which ironically, have lower carotene levels then you'd expect.

I've incorporated liver in my diet many different ways, I find pate to be the best way to eat it. I never wake up looking forward to liver day, the taste is meh. But mixed with enough spices and some milk the livery flavor tends to dissipate some, making it tolerable. If he just refuses to flat out eat liver, which I can't say I would blame him lol, you could always try a supplement. Just make sure it's retinyl palmitate and not beta-carotene. I would start slow first to see how he reacts to it. About 30mgs, roughly 6000ius if my memory serve correctly, is a good starting dose. That's approx the same amount you'd fine in about 1.5 oz of beef liver.

I would start even lower for a daily dose since thyroid is probably not optimal either. 3-4k could be good. Ray does not recommend above 5k daily when hypothyroid since vit A is a thyroid antagonist.

 

[TeaRex14]

I’m going to save you guys the trouble of argueing.

The ideal human diet:

-fruit

-safe tubers and roots depending on individual tolerability

-saturated/ monounsaturated fats: coconut oil, cocoa butter, beef tallow, butter

-seafood

-meats

-dairy depending on tolerability

We are descedants of primates (animals that eat close to a 70% fruit diet), that evolved to eat meat, seafood, tubers and dairy. All other foods are sub par from multiple angles and perspectives. If you disagree you have a high serotonin personality...

I agree with that, even certain vegetables are probably fine as well. Well cooked leafy greens as Peat notes, I've also heard him mention the anti-estrogen effects of celery and parsley. The whole fruit vs starch thing seems individualistic. Personally I believe fruit based diets to be superior, but we can't really deny the mass amount of people testifying to do better with starch. However that doesn't necessarily prove starch is superior metabolically speaking, it probably just means those people are sensitive to the high water content of fruits. It would be interesting to see how well they do on dry fruits. Macros are probably a problem for quite a few people as well. Eating some dietary fat is needed to adsorb fat soluble vitamins, however for the rest we can just make saturated fatty acids from carbohydrates. A high carb diet can correct PUFA imbalances better than a high dietary saturated fat would. We make pure saturated fat from glucose, if we eat large amounts of butter and even coconut oil the PUFA from those foods will start accumulating. This is probably why places around the world like the Blue Zones tend to live longer on average.

 

[TeaRex14]

I would start even lower for a daily dose since thyroid is probably not optimal either. 3-4k could be good. Ray does not recommend above 5k daily when hypothyroid since vit A is a thyroid antagonist.

If you don't know for sure lower is always better. 3-4k would be good, I probably wouldn't go lower than 1k because there would be no point considering you can get close to that just by eating lowfat dairy and eggs

 

[Cirion]

From what I've seen starch seems to be (generally speaking) the superior carbohydrate choice for someone who is hypothyroid, and sugar/starches for those who are healthier. I don't do well on pure sugar, I'm actually like 50-70% carbs from starch and 30-50% from sugar and this seems to be the sweet spot for me. Too much sugar just makes me jittery and feeling stressful and unstable blood-sugar wise. I have no doubt that once someone is healthy that sugar very well may be the superior choice, but I now no longer believe it is the path to health, at least to use sugar/sweet foods for 100% of carbs. Unfortunately, it was my dogmatic believe that sugar should be 100% of carbs period that led me through 6 months of pain and probably why many others here have had to suffer needlessly as well. I think everyone should experiment though for sure. Do what works, not what RP or anyone else says works. Theorycrafting is nice and all... but it's just that, theory. Results is what matters.

I have been around these forums for a while and I have seen it time and time again that a high sugar diet just doesn't work for someone new to RP and/or unhealthy. But I have seen it work for people who are already healthy or have already made great metabolic strides. So it does work, for sure, for some people. And I myself will probably shift my ratios towards more sugar and less starch as I get more well... likely. I'll definitely try it again at least.

 

[postman]

Yes, portraying people who criticize Peat as borderline mentally challenged is very nuanced

To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Ray Peat. His advice is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of theoretical physiology most of his advice will go over a typical reader's head. People who dislike Ray Peat truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the humour in Ray's existential catchphrase "perceive, think act," which itself is a cryptic reference to his own infallibility. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Ray Peat's genius brilliance unfolds itself on their computer screens. What fools.. how I pity them.

And yes, by the way, i DO have a Ray Peat tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- and even then they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 IQ points of my own (preferably lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid

 

[jb116]

You said...

"He has never said "no starch." In fact he has actually said he thinks a person should eat as much sugar and starch as possible."

You're accusing others of misrepresenting Peat, but wording it like that makes it sound like he treats sugar (glucose + fructose) and starch on equal footing. He most certainly does not. He's even discouraged the use of starch when good fruit is available. It's probably best to say he thinks starch is better than some other options, but it's not a good option compared to fruit. Of course, none of this means people shouldn't go out and eat starch if they feel well on it, but it's dishonest to act like Peat hasn't offered some general dietary guidelines, with dairy and fruit being his preferred food staples.

lol I mean, seriously? That's how you interpret ALL of my posts? I'm starting to feel people just want to type "I disagree with you" or "you're wrong" for the hell of it. What's worse is we are essentially saying the same things but you are walking away with a more extreme conclusion. If you read all of my posts, they are related and they represent the kind of nuanced and conditional thinking process that no other than Peat demonstrates. That quote are HIS exact words by the way. BUT again, if you read all of my posts, you can see that it is a conditional thing: eat as much sugar and starch as you can, but ensuring good digestion of the starch based on current metabolism, therefore effects and symptoms and proper preparation and cooking techniques. In no way did I say it's preferred OVER dairy and fruit. That's your error in your interpretation. So, no. It's not "wording" they are his quote. That along with all of my posts should give you a clearer picture of what is being implied. If you suffer spoon-fed syndrome, then sorry.

 

[michael94]

Ray peat isn’t wrong about things

If anything he underestimated the amount of stress and derangement people are under, but that’s not his “job”.

 

[Peater Piper]

lol I mean, seriously? That's how you interpret ALL of my posts? I'm starting to feel people just want to type "I disagree with you" or "you're wrong" for the hell of it. What's worse is we are essentially saying the same things but you are walking away with a more extreme conclusion. If you read all of my posts, they are related and they represent the kind of nuanced and conditional thinking process that no other than Peat demonstrates. That quote are HIS exact words by the way. BUT again, if you read all of my posts, you can see that it is a conditional thing: eat as much sugar and starch as you can, but ensuring good digestion of the starch based on current metabolism, therefore effects and symptoms and proper preparation and cooking techniques. In no way did I say it's preferred OVER dairy and fruit. That's your error in your interpretation. So, no. It's not "wording" they are his quote. That along with all of my posts should give you a clearer picture of what is being implied. If you suffer spoon-fed syndrome, then sorry.

First, do you honestly believe I've read through all of your posts? I'm responding to your one post criticizing people for not understanding Peat, when I don't believe you're giving an accurate portrayal of his view on starch. He's given enough critiques of starch to believe he thinks it's not an ideal carbohydrate source, even for someone with a healthy thyroid and adequate digestion. The context is yes, a healthy person may do okay on starch, but they can still do better on an alternate carb source (fruit), and you were definitely NOT implying that with your words. Second, if you're quoting Peat, you should be using quotation marks instead of assuming everyone knows every quote of his. Perhaps you can provide a link to the quote, because searching for exactly what you wrote is not turning up any results, and I'd like to see the context.

Update: I'm guessing this is the quote you were talking about. "I think it's best to get as much sugar and starch in your diet, preferably sugars from fruit and milk, and minimise the exposure to the unstable and n-6 and n-3 fatty acids." I think leaving out "preferably sugars from fruit and milk" in your statement is misleading.

 

[jzeno]

Glad I made this post. Bringing out a lot of opinions that I need to take note of so I don't listen to the people who posted them the next time they post.

"Ray peat isn’t wrong about things"

 

[jb116]

First, do you honestly believe I've read through all of your posts? I'm responding to your one post criticizing people for not understanding Peat, when I don't believe you're giving an accurate portrayal of his view on starch. He's given enough critiques of starch to believe he thinks it's not an ideal carbohydrate source, even for someone with a healthy thyroid and adequate digestion. The context is yes, a healthy person may do okay on starch, but they can still do better on an alternate carb source (fruit), and you were definitely NOT implying that with your words. Second, if you're quoting Peat, you should be using quotation marks instead of assuming everyone knows every quote of his. Perhaps you can provide a link to the quote, because searching for exactly what you wrote is not turning up any results, and I'd like to see the context.

Update: I'm guessing this is the quote you were talking about. "I think it's best to get as much sugar and starch in your diet, preferably sugars from fruit and milk, and minimise the exposure to the unstable and n-6 and n-3 fatty acids." I think leaving out "preferably sugars from fruit and milk" in your statement is misleading.

That is the quote yes. And NO it is not misleading considering everything I have said. That's what you're not getting!
It's amazing! You yourself admit that you didn't read everything I wrote. How is anybody supposed to rely on your understanding of any given context in full?
It's getting tiresome folks. A lack of understanding, half-**** reading things, and overall not having a full enough grasp on the things that Peat says himself.
Your lack of understanding and/or intentionally overlooking things puts you in this circle: you don't understand what you don't understand because you haven't yet understood what you need to understand. Evading information on top of that is not helping you.

 

[SB4]

To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Ray Peat. His advice is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of theoretical physiology most of his advice will go over a typical reader's head. People who dislike Ray Peat truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the humour in Ray's existential catchphrase "perceive, think act," which itself is a cryptic reference to his own infallibility. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Ray Peat's genius brilliance unfolds itself on their computer screens. What fools.. how I pity them.

And yes, by the way, i DO have a Ray Peat tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- and even then they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 IQ points of my own (preferably lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid

Well played

 

[schultz]

Anesthiology textbook

Ray "discovered" the carrot because someone told him that carrots helped get rid of their migraines so he figured it must be having a positive effect on the GIT, having previously read about Walter Alvarez sticking wads of cotton in his students rectums (which caused migraines, apparently due to the pressure in the colon... ... )