Why isn't this thread about Cocoa a bigger deal?

[Philomath]

"Energy and structure are interdependent at every level" -Ray Peat

If the primary focus of this forum revolves around Dr. Peat's theories concerning the significance of energy production, why aren't threads like these receiving more attention...

Dark Chocolate For Stress Reduction

Dark chocolate reduces my stress. I know many other people crave chocolate in times of stress. Why does dark chocolate work so well? Even 20 grams of dark chocolate successfully reduces my stress level. It works very fast too. It has a calming effect on me. It also increases my mental energy.

raypeatforum.com

Cocoa Or Pre-treated Cacao For Benefit?

Chocolate is a seed, so it digests better when we prepare it somehow. There was a time when I ate at least a pound of raw cacao a day when I tried vegetarian-keto, but I soon ran into problems digesting it. Knowing what I know now about the nature of seeds, I believe they definitely need to be...

raypeatforum.com

Dietary Cocoa Reduces Metabolic Endotoxemia And Adipose Tissue Inflammation In High-Fat Fed Mice

Didn't see this posted elsewhere, please let me know if I am wrong. Dietary Cocoa Reduces Metabolic Endotoxemia and Adipose Tissue Inflammation in High-Fat Fed Mice Dietary Cocoa Reduces Metabolic Endotoxemia and Adipose Tissue Inflammation in High-Fat Fed Mice Yeyi Gu,a Shan Yu,b Jong Yung...

raypeatforum.com

A considerable portion of our community members appear to grapple with compromised energy production - particularly those of us over 40. The quest to pinpoint the underlying causes of low energy, diminished CO2 production, and suboptimal metabolic health leads us to various factors such as environmental toxins, potential vitamin or mineral deficiencies, and heightened stress hormone levels. While the combination of these elements certainly contributes to our predicament, Dr. Peat often advocated for targeted "supplements," like Thyroid, to rectify deficiencies, reduce the body's burdens, and allow for a natural return to equilibrium.

Within this forum and online, a wealth of scientific studies support the idea that cocoa, with its diverse array of flavonoids, flavanols, xanthines, antioxidants, and quinones, possesses the ability to repair mitochondria. These studies indicate that cocoa can enhance mitochondrial mass, invigorate their function, elevate maximal ADP-stimulated respiration, and stimulate growth or biogenesis. Dr. Peat's writings consistently correlate improved energy production, and better overall health. This includes cognitive improvement, improved insulin sensitivity, stress reduction, lowered blood pressure, and numerous other health benefits.

Given this perspective, it seems obvious to me that enhancing metabolism lies in the use and supplementation of natural, untreated (Dutched) cocoa. Why aren't more people exploring this approach - and putting cocoa on the level of thyroid or progesterone?

 

[Bozidar]

"Energy and structure are interdependent at every level" -Ray Peat

If the primary focus of this forum revolves around Dr. Peat's theories concerning the significance of energy production, why aren't threads like these receiving more attention...

Dark Chocolate For Stress Reduction

Dark chocolate reduces my stress. I know many other people crave chocolate in times of stress. Why does dark chocolate work so well? Even 20 grams of dark chocolate successfully reduces my stress level. It works very fast too. It has a calming effect on me. It also increases my mental energy.

raypeatforum.com

Cocoa Or Pre-treated Cacao For Benefit?

Chocolate is a seed, so it digests better when we prepare it somehow. There was a time when I ate at least a pound of raw cacao a day when I tried vegetarian-keto, but I soon ran into problems digesting it. Knowing what I know now about the nature of seeds, I believe they definitely need to be...

raypeatforum.com

Dietary Cocoa Reduces Metabolic Endotoxemia And Adipose Tissue Inflammation In High-Fat Fed Mice

Didn't see this posted elsewhere, please let me know if I am wrong. Dietary Cocoa Reduces Metabolic Endotoxemia and Adipose Tissue Inflammation in High-Fat Fed Mice Dietary Cocoa Reduces Metabolic Endotoxemia and Adipose Tissue Inflammation in High-Fat Fed Mice Yeyi Gu,a Shan Yu,b Jong Yung...

raypeatforum.com

A considerable portion of our community members appear to grapple with compromised energy production - particularly those of us over 40. The quest to pinpoint the underlying causes of low energy, diminished CO2 production, and suboptimal metabolic health leads us to various factors such as environmental toxins, potential vitamin or mineral deficiencies, and heightened stress hormone levels. While the combination of these elements certainly contributes to our predicament, Dr. Peat often advocated for targeted "supplements," like Thyroid, to rectify deficiencies, reduce the body's burdens, and allow for a natural return to equilibrium.

Within this forum and online, a wealth of scientific studies support the idea that cocoa, with its diverse array of flavonoids, flavanols, xanthines, antioxidants, and quinones, possesses the ability to repair mitochondria. These studies indicate that cocoa can enhance mitochondrial mass, invigorate their function, elevate maximal ADP-stimulated respiration, and stimulate growth or biogenesis. Dr. Peat's writings consistently correlate improved energy production, and better overall health. This includes cognitive improvement, improved insulin sensitivity, stress reduction, lowered blood pressure, and numerous other health benefits.

Given this perspective, it seems obvious to me that enhancing metabolism lies in the use and supplementation of natural, untreated (Dutched) cocoa. Why aren't more people exploring this approach - and putting cocoa on the level of thyroid or progesterone?

I am eating dark chocolate for almost 2 years every day. It helps a lot with motivation, but it doesn't last all that long.
Just a few days ago I started using cacao extract cause I couldn't find pute theobromine.
1 gram of that makes me feel almost normal. Like before when I was relatively healthy.
And it lasts a whole day.
Coupled with coffee its even better.

 

[Dave Clark]

Why? Probably because just like many of the things on this forum and the social media, cacao is now persona non grata due to its 'oxalate' contents. It is typical that people will throw the baby out with the bath water. Forget that cacao has many positive health benefits, that doesn't make good fear mongering. They are doing the same thing to turmeric. Peat would often talk about positive anecdotal stories about cacao, brewer's yeast, etc., and then when asked it he recommended using it, he would say no.

 

[charlie]

Cocoa will put you on the fast track to copper toxicity hell. If you crave chocolate then that is a sign you are copper toxic.

 

[Elie]

Cocoa will put you on the fast track to copper toxicity hell. If you crave chocolate then that is a sign you are copper toxic.

How much copper does Smith says we need for the things like ceruloplasmin, Cytochrome - Complex 4, etc.?

 

[High_Prob]

How much copper does Smith says we need for the things like ceruloplasmin, Cytochrome - Complex 4, etc.?

Based on Charlie’s response below, Cytochrome C doesn’t need Copper? @charlie

Copper is needed in moderation for the metabolism (cytochrome c).

More witchcraft.

 

[Philomath]

I would agree that our society, and likely many people on this forum including myself, might try to overcompensate by taking too much of a good thing. In excess, almost everything can be considered toxic. Dr. Peat, in his books, describes Copper as toxic in excess, and says it should be balance by zinc and vitamin E. In his later writings (1990's) he touts the benefits of copper - as if his attitude toward Copper was changing as he researched it more.

Copper's Importance in Mitochondrial Respiration and Aging
"Copper is an essential component of cytochrome oxidase, which has the crucial last position in the mitochondrial respiratory system. Copper is a component of the cytoplasmic SOD enzyme, which decreases with age. Ceruloplasmin, a major copper-containing protein, helps to keep iron in its safe oxidized form. Copper is involved in the production of melanin (itself an antioxidant) and elastin. The loss of melanin, elastin, and respiratory capacity, which s so characteristic of senescence, is also produced by excessive exposure to cortisol." - 1990 - October - Ray Peat's Newsletter

I believe one should be cautious when supplementing copper - it could quickly lead to imbalances and toxicity, potentially due to the manufacturing process. However, natural foods, like cocoa, seem to provide a more bioavailable form of copper and a balance with other minerals like zinc. Not to mention the flavonoids and flavones that likely impart additional benefits.

If you look at the studies that were done around cocoa, copper and mitochondria, they don't mention toxicity (especially at the levels and amounts they use) and I'm sure they'd limit the studies if their supplementation caused grave side effects.

 

[Bozidar]

Cocoa will put you on the fast track to copper toxicity hell. If you crave chocolate then that is a sign you are copper toxic.

What about my copper being very low on a blood test?

 

[mosaic01]

In his later writings (1990's) he touts the benefits of copper - as if his attitude toward Copper was changing as he researched it more.

Copper seems to be like calcium. Impossible to have a deficiency in normal conditions.

The reasonings around the RDA of copper also sound almost exactly like that of calcium. Scientists haven't been able to find conclusive symptoms or biomarkers of deficiency in the real world, so they resort to things like balancing studies to arrive at a RDA.

There were studies done where people ate a low copper diet for a couple weeks to understand how much the body excretes, and no symptoms appeared.

If the true copper requirement is something like 0.3 or 0.5mg, then deficiency is almost impossible, and the real problem is toxicity.

I think everything that is stored in large amounts in the liver (retinol, copper, iron) we have too much of, and the liver storage is a survival mechanism for the body to protect itself from the massive intake.

What about my copper being very low on a blood test?

You need to measure the percentage of unbound copper to get some idea, and probably also do a hair test.

Low Toxin Lifestyle - Fibromyalgia & Rheumatoid Arthritis is Copper Toxicity, It is Not Caused by Estrogen

Dr. Purser found in his practice that Fibromyalgia is simply copper toxicity. He also found the way to test for copper toxicity which you can learn in the video below. The standard blood test will not show copper toxicity very well. When I have more time I will watch it again and post the three...

raypeatforum.com

 

[charlie]

How much copper does Smith says we need

Dr. Garrett Smith is seeing in his clinical practice that they less copper a person has in their body, the healthier they get.

ceruloplasmin, Cytochrome - Complex 4, etc.?

What if these are protection mechanisms against the toxicity of copper?

What about my copper being very low on a blood test?

Dr. Smith has noticed that those who show very low copper in the blood are the most copper toxic of all. Basically the liver is holding onto copper as tight as it can trying to save your life.

Copper seems to be like calcium. Impossible to have a deficiency in normal conditions.

The reasonings around the RDA of copper also sound almost exactly like that of calcium. Scientists haven't been able to find conclusive symptoms or biomarkers of deficiency in the real world, so they resort to things like balancing studies to arrive at a RDA.

There were studies done where people ate a low copper diet for a couple weeks to understand how much the body excretes, and no symptoms appeared.

If the true copper requirement is something like 0.3 or 0.5mg, then deficiency is almost impossible, and the real problem is toxicity.

I think everything that is stored in large amounts in the liver (retinol, copper, iron) we have too much of, and the liver storage is a survival mechanism for the body to protect itself from the massive intake.

Exactly.

 

[Philomath]

I am eating dark chocolate for almost 2 years every day. It helps a lot with motivation, but it doesn't last all that long.
Just a few days ago I started using cacao extract cause I couldn't find pute theobromine.
1 gram of that makes me feel almost normal. Like before when I was relatively healthy.
And it lasts a whole day.
Coupled with coffee its even better.

Sounds like you may be on to something! It's good that you are testing and proceeding with caution. Was cocoa extract purely for the theobromine or does it have other benefits over cocoa powder? BTW, isn't Theobromine a xanthine like caffeine? seems like a synergistic pairing to me!

 

[High_Prob]

Dr. Garrett Smith is seeing in his clinical practice that they less copper a person has in their body, the healthier they get.

What if these are protection mechanisms against the toxicity of copper?

Dr. Smith has noticed that those who show very low copper in the blood are the most copper toxic of all. Basically the liver is holding onto copper as tight as it can trying to save your life.

Exactly.

But isn’t Copper essential for Ceruplasmin and Cytochrome to work?

Are you saying that Ceruplasmin and Cytochrome only SEEM to need copper in order to work?

 

[charlie]

But isn’t Copper essential for Ceruplasmin and Cytochrome to work?

Not gonna play gotcha's with you. The simple fact remains, the less copper people have in their body the better. Like @mosaic01 mentioned it is probably impossible to become deficient in copper, like calcium, and the actual problem is they are likely to cause toxicity very easily.

You seem to have missed the paradigm change. It is not about how much we are bringing in, this is the Rockefeller and old science ways. It is about what we do not take in. This change of perception is what brings healing to the people.

 

[High_Prob]

Not gonna play gotcha's with you. The simple fact remains, the less copper people have in their body the better. Like @mosaic01 mentioned it is probably impossible to become deficient in copper, like calcium, and the actual problem is they are likely to cause toxicity very easily.

You seem to have missed the paradigm change. It is not about how much we are bringing in, this is the Rockefeller and old science ways. It is about what we do not take in. This change of perception is what brings healing to the people.

I know it seems like I am playing that game but I am really just pushing to build new reasons/theories to replace the old ones. For me all of this is a cool exercise to think of things in new ways, like a paradigm shift.

 

[Morten]

Why? Probably because just like many of the things on this forum and the social media, cacao is now persona non grata due to its 'oxalate' contents. It is typical that people will throw the baby out with the bath water. Forget that cacao has many positive health benefits, that doesn't make good fear mongering. They are doing the same thing to turmeric. Peat would often talk about positive anecdotal stories about cacao, brewer's yeast, etc., and then when asked it he recommended using it, he would say no.

Why did he not recommend it, when he spoke positively about it?

 

[charlie]

I know it seems like I am playing that game but I am really just pushing to build new reasons/theories to replace the old ones.

Some people tout certain substances and foods that raise ALDH. Dr. Garrett Smith has said these foods/substances cause this raise in ALDH because they are toxic and the body is trying to get it out. So maybe that is the case with copper too, its just to protect the body from copper overlaod? I don't know. What I do know is people who limit copper and bring up their zinc are getting healthier and healthier.

Smith is really great at finding patterns. Over and over he sees the same pattern in disease, cancer, tumors, anything basically degenerative. This pattern is, high copper, low zinc, low selenium, low potassium, low magnesium, low molybdenum, low niacin.

 

[Morten]

Some people tout certain substances and foods that raise ALDH. Dr. Garrett Smith has said these foods/substances cause this raise in ALDH because they are toxic and the body is trying to get it out. So maybe that is the case with copper too, its just to protect the body from copper overlaod? I don't know. What I do know is people who limit copper and bring up their zinc are getting healthier and healthier.

Smith is really great at finding patterns. Over and over he sees the same pattern in disease, cancer, tumors, anything basically degenerative. This pattern is, high copper, low zinc, low selenium, low potassium, low magnesium, low molybdenum, low niacin.

Would you supplement Zink, or get it from food?

 

[Philomath]

@charlie, can you provide Dr. Smith's proof that the liver is "holding on" to excess copper and low blood levels mean toxicity?

To @Dave Clark s point, there's never a shortage of people that want to profit off the slander of healthy/natural products (Eggs, Coconut oil, thyroid glands, liver, sugar, etc) - that's why I'm having a hard time believing Dr. Smith's claims. Maybe he's correct, but I need more proof.

 

[Bozidar]

Sounds like you may be on to something! It's good that you are testing and proceeding with caution. Was cocoa extract purely for the theobromine or does it have other benefits over cocoa powder? BTW, isn't Theobromine a xanthine like caffeine? seems like a synergistic pairing to me!

I bought cacao extract only because I couldn't find pure theobromine so I suppose cacao extract is going to have a lot of it.
It probably has other compounds increased by concentration as opposed to just plain cacao, but I bought it because of theobromine.
Yes, theobromine is xanthine.
If I drink just coffee, it gives me a terrible come down few hours later, but if I take cacao extract with it, comedown does not happen.

I have also bought Theacrine and Dynamine which are all similar. I am yet to try them out.
Found out about all of that from cortex labs guy on youtube.

 

[charlie]

Would you supplement Zink, or get it from food?

Both. A low toxin and low "vitamin A" diet should be red meat centered. And from what Dr. Garrett Smith is seeing we need supplemental zinc picolinate on top of it. However, some people need to go slow on both read meat and zinc in the beginning due to being so copper toxic. You just need to see how you get along with them. There were times I could not even handle the zinc in beef as it would push on copper so hard and make me uncomfortable.

@charlie, can you provide Dr. Smith's proof that the liver is "holding on" to excess copper and low blood levels mean toxicity?

There was study posted here recently that showed the same thing. Also, he has had several patients who showed the same pattern. Extremely copper toxic with little copper showing in the blood. Once the liver unlocked, and started releasing the copper, the blood got flooded with copper and then the blood tests showed copper levels off the charts.

I bought cacao extract only because I couldn't find pure theobromine so I suppose cacao extract is going to have a lot of it.
It probably has other compounds increased by concentration as opposed to just plain cacao, but I bought it because of theobromine.
Yes, theobromine is xanthine.
If I drink just coffee, it gives me a terrible come down few hours later, but if I take cacao extract with it, comedown does not happen.

When I came off chocolate my digestion literally shut down, it scared me. So I sourced some theobromine and took it, it did help a bit but not like chocolate. So I gave it up and trusted the low toxin and low "vitamin A" process and do not regret making that decision one bit.

To @Dave Clark s point, there's never a shortage of people that want to profit off the slander of healthy/natural products (Eggs, Coconut oil, thyroid glands, liver, sugar, etc) - that's why I'm having a hard time believing Dr. Smith's claims. Maybe he's correct, but I need more proof.

He just wants to see the people healthy, just like I do. His system absolutely works. He has found a system that can potentially heal humanity on a mass level. He went hard on Peatarians but I think that was a big move for him to extend the olive branch to the Ray Peat community, respect. I truly believe he is a good guy and wants to see people heal.

The low toxin and low "vitamin A" lifestyle simply works. I saw too many people getting healed in the love your liver group to deny it any longer. I had to break free of the fear of going blind, etc, by limiting "vitamin A". It was a decision I am so glad I made the leap on.