You Know You've Gone Peat Mad When

[Blossom]

Now that I have read Peat's reply to Lindsay I have to say that as far as I'm concerned this topic is no longer Peaty to me. Sometimes the best intentions go wrong. Peat clearly doesn't advocate for inhaling CO2 (except bag breathing) so I don't think I should concern myself with pointing out any potential dangers of the practice. I had no ill will in doing so to begin with.

 

[visionofstrength]

Acute hypercapnia causes include
- status epilepticus
- congestive heart failure
- respiratory failure or pulmonary insufficiency
- asphyxia or suffocation
- respiratory dead space excess
- breathing pure oxygen
- ventilator malfunction
- presence of foreign bodies in airways
- respiratory arrest
- coma
- overdose of medical drugs or respiratory suppressants (e.g., sedative drugs, salicylate intoxication/overdose, curare, morphine and other opiates).

That's perfectly fine. We normally only see people with hypercapnic respiratory failure from the bodies own internal production and inability to blow off excess CO2 as in the above scenarios. People simply tire out and stop breathing. In the event that a person were to continue with prolonged inhalation of CO2 you could have the same end result 'hypercarbic/hypercapnic respiratory failure' and that is where the problem lies in my opinion. There hasn't been enough research in this area because medicine/science is so resistant to studying this topic in depth. People don't routinely attempt to breath in CO2 so we are very limited in our knowledge of how much and in what situations it is beneficial. Any asphyxiation is technically respiratory failure. I do admire your work vos and I think there is an optimal level of CO2 and there is going overboard. I hate to see anyone accidentally go overboard and that's all.

Ah now I see (finally), thanks! I amend my caution to say that, in addition to handling unmixed CO2 with care, and mixing it promptly with air, if you have any of the following symptoms of acute hypercapnia, before using mixed CO2, you should consult with your physician or respiratory therapist*.

Acute hypercapnia causes include
- status epilepticus
- congestive heart failure
- respiratory failure or pulmonary insufficiency
- asphyxia or suffocation
- respiratory dead space excess
- breathing pure oxygen
- ventilator malfunction
- presence of foreign bodies in airways
- respiratory arrest
- coma
- overdose of medical drugs or respiratory suppressants (e.g., sedative drugs, salicylate intoxication/overdose, curare, morphine and other opiates).

*And I know a good one who goes by the handle Blossom!

 

[Blossom]

 

[visionofstrength]

Now that I have read Peat's reply to Lindsay I have to say that as far as I'm concerned this topic is no longer Peaty to me. Sometimes the best intentions go wrong. Peat clearly doesn't advocate for inhaling CO2 (except bag breathing) so I don't think I should concern myself with pointing out any potential dangers of the practice. I had no ill will in doing so to begin with.

Please, I certainly want to point out documented dangers of the practice (or experiences). Are there any others than the ones you and Tara have already pointed out, i.e.: caveats for unmixed CO2 and life-threatening symptoms of acute hypercapnia?

I think Peat would say yes, if asked:
Is it safe to inhale or ingest CO2 mixed with air or water, respectively, provided that 1. You give the nerves time to adapt gradually; and 2. The concentration is not too acidic to burn the membranes.

The problem with bag-breathing and diffusion through the skin is, (as you know if you've tried them) they're not practical. I've experimented with both and they just don't make enough of a difference in the actual carbonate content of the body, unless you do them far more than is practical.

For example, bag breathing is good for relieving adrenaline or stress, but it does little for measurably increasing carbonates unless you spend at least an hour a day at it. I can't in good faith recommend that much time "in the bag" when I wouldn't do that myself.

Similarly, using CO2 in a bag is also impractical, if you've ever tried it. It doesn't work effectively unless you are very wet, and sitting in a bag wet is quite uncomfortable. Again, I can't recommend it to anyone in good faith when I wouldn't do it myself.

 

[Such_Saturation]

You could try hardcore meditation and get the added benefits. If you are using a device, technically you are a bio-hacker

 

[tara]

Please, I certainly want to point out documented dangers of the practice (or experiences). Are there any others than the ones you and Tara have already pointed out, i.e.: caveats for unmixed CO2 and life-threatening symptoms of acute hypercapnia?

I think Peat would say yes, if asked:
Is it safe to inhale or ingest CO2 mixed with air or water, respectively, provided that 1. You give the nerves time to adapt gradually; and 2. The concentration is not too acidic to burn the membranes.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. As Blossom points out, breathing higher than usual CO2 concentrations hasn't been done or studied enough yet to know with confidence. Unlike bag-breathing, yogic breathing, Buteyko method, which have been more widely practiced for longer (there are some known risks for some people with these too).

The problem with bag-breathing and diffusion through the skin is, (as you know if you've tried them) they're not practical. I've experimented with both and they just don't make enough of a difference in the actual carbonate content of the body, unless you do them far more than is practical.

For example, bag breathing is good for relieving adrenaline or stress, but it does little for measurably increasing carbonates unless you spend at least an hour a day at it. I can't in good faith recommend that much time "in the bag" when I wouldn't do that myself.

I agree that they are not convenient. Where do you get the hour a day from? I have not been practising bag-breathing much, but there are reports of shorter times making some subjective difference, if not a measured one. I would think that to make a persistent difference one would need to do it enough to raise the CO2 set point that controls breathing in-between times. Cloth or sheet or blankets over the head at night emulates this for extended periods without needing extra time or equipment. Various reduced breathing practices can be entirely practical for some people, because once you've learned them, you can practice anywhere, anytime, with no equipment. I can only claim small improvements with this, but others have made large improvements.

Similarly, using CO2 in a bag is also impractical, if you've ever tried it. It doesn't work effectively unless you are very wet, and sitting in a bag wet is quite uncomfortable. Again, I can't recommend it to anyone in good faith when I wouldn't do it myself.

There is evidence of the safety and effectiveness of this practice, when performed properly. It is more inconvenient and costs more time and money, but many people have done it anyway, including some hospitals, and there are reports of measurable improvements in symptoms. Peat and Peatarian have both reported doing this themselves. 'Impractical' is subjective and relative.

 

[visionofstrength]

Please, I certainly want to point out documented dangers of the practice (or experiences). Are there any others than the ones you and Tara have already pointed out, i.e.: caveats for unmixed CO2 and life-threatening symptoms of acute hypercapnia?

I think Peat would say yes, if asked:
Is it safe to inhale or ingest CO2 mixed with air or water, respectively, provided that 1. You give the nerves time to adapt gradually; and 2. The concentration is not too acidic to burn the membranes.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. As Blossom points out, breathing higher than usual CO2 concentrations hasn't been done or studied enough yet to know with confidence.

I think Blossom was making another point (and a very good one I finally realized!), that those with life-threatening acute hypercapnia should see their physician (or respiratory therapist), rather than use CO2 enrichment.

But there's an abundance of evidence from as long ago as 1940 that carbon dioxide therapy is "extremely safe" (see the post above). Even in today's corrupt patrinomy of academicians, having ignored Henderson's work for decades, researchers have now begun to acknowledge what Henderson knew:

The physiologic effects of hypercapnia, both beneficial and potentially deleterious, are increasingly well understood. In addition, reports suggest that humans can tolerate extreme levels of hypercapnia for relatively prolonged periods without adverse effects.

Bag breathing is the equivalent of breathing CO2 enriched air, with the difference that you can't have precise control over the level of CO2 you bag breathe, and you can't avoid the depletion of O2. You take a first bag-breath of .03% CO2 and 21% O2, and exhale maybe 4% CO2, and 17% O2. Bag-breathe that 4% CO2/17% O2 air again, and you may exhale 6% CO2/15% O2 air. After about 1-2 minutes, depending on how many bag-breaths you take (and how tightly you hold the bag to your face), and you'll be bag-breathing in air that has 10%CO2/11%O2.

I think that's why Peat suggests bag-breathing for only a minute or two, and limiting it to maybe 4 times a day. You can't control the CO2/O2 levels with bag-breathing.

But if bag breathing is safe, as Peat knows it is, then breathing CO2 enriched air can only be safer, because you can control the CO2 level precisely. You know what you're getting with every breath.

The problem with bag-breathing and diffusion through the skin is, (as you know if you've tried them) they're not practical. I've experimented with both and they just don't make enough of a difference in the actual carbonate content of the body, unless you do them far more than is practical.

For example, bag breathing is good for relieving adrenaline or stress, but it does little for measurably increasing carbonates unless you spend at least an hour a day at it. I can't in good faith recommend that much time "in the bag" when I wouldn't do that myself.

I agree that they are not convenient. Where do you get the hour a day from?

I think it takes an hour to see a measurable increase in carbonates, because that's about how long it seems to take for me to achieve a lasting increase in exhaled CO2 that's still measurable by a CO2 sensor even after breathing non-enriched air an hour or two later. I don't think it's practical to do bag breathing for an hour, but you can easily and comfortably breathe CO2 enriched air for that long, or as long as you'd like, at any concentration you prefer. Carbon dioxide therapy is everything Henderson said it was in 1940.

Similarly, using CO2 in a bag is also impractical, if you've ever tried it. It doesn't work effectively unless you are very wet, and sitting in a bag wet is quite uncomfortable. Again, I can't recommend it to anyone in good faith when I wouldn't do it myself.

'Impractical' is subjective and relative.

Yes, that's all I meant when I said I can't recommend it in good faith if I (subjectively) wouldn't do it myself (regularly). But I do think it has its place, for example, for treating the skin itself. If I was worried about scarring from a wound, I think I'd be very likely to get into that CO2 bag wet!

 

[Blossom]

Actually I wasn't trying to promote people seeing doctors or respiratory therapists. In fact I think it would be great for people to be empowered enough to manage their own health through reasonable diet and lifestyle measures in order to minimize or eliminate the need for medical care. I'm pretty sure that if one went to a physician or respiratory therapist about optimizing CO2 all they would get is a cross eyed look and a speech about CO2 being a toxic metabolic poison.
I did find some information on the levels of inhaled CO2 considered toxic by the CDC, for what it's worth, and I will post it when I have a real computer available later today as I'm currently on a mobile device. Basically over 7% according to the CDC chart I read is entering the danger zone. I thought I had read that somewhere before but couldn't remember where and information on CO2 seems hard to come by.

 

[visionofstrength]

I did find some information on the levels of inhaled CO2 considered toxic by the CDC, for what it's worth, and I will post it when I have a real computer available later today as I'm currently on a mobile device. Basically over 7% according to the CDC chart I read is entering the danger zone. I thought I had read that somewhere before but couldn't remember where and information on CO2 seems hard to come by.

IMHO, the CDC is not authoritative. It is a government controlled advisory dispensing opinions. We'd need to see what their data is, if they have any.

For me, CDC would have a conflict of interest. Government's role is to control (or manage) its population based on financial and political considerations.

 

[visionofstrength]

Actually I wasn't trying to promote people seeing doctors or respiratory therapists. In fact I think it would be great for people to be empowered enough to manage their own health through reasonable diet and lifestyle measures in order to minimize or eliminate the need for medical care. I'm pretty sure that if one went to a physician or respiratory therapist about optimizing CO2 all they would get is a cross eyed look and a speech about CO2 being a toxic metabolic poison. ... information on CO2 seems hard to come by.

Only dangerous treatments are profitable to study in today's corruption called science.

Y. Henderson had already enough data in 1940 to show that CO2 therapy (i.e., inhalation) is "extremely safe" (in Peat's phrase). But you're right B, they don't teach MD's about this. Here's Henderson's, I think classic, review from Cyclopedia of Medicine.

THERAPEUTICS. ----In Anesthesia.--- In 1920, Henderson, Haggard and Coburn carried their observations to the clinic and found that when inhalations of carbon dioxide ( 8% ) in air were administered to patients after major surgical operations under open ether anesthesia, the effects were strikingly beneficial. With the return of deep breathing, the cyanosis then common after anesthesia disappeared. The cutaneous circulation improved. The skin changed in color and temperature, from blue- gray and cold to pink and warm. The volume of the pulse, previously thready, rapidly became full; and arterial pressure was restored to normal. Owing to the increased volume of breathing, the anesthetic (ether) was rapidly ventilated out of the blood and consciousness returned within a few minutes, even after profound anesthesia. Nausea and vomiting were either greatly reduced or entirely absent and after the inhalation the patient dropped off to sleep.

In continuation of these observations, White found that when slow hemorrhage occurs after operations upon the brain, the rate of breathing gradually decreases until death is imminent. In several of such cases life was saved by stimulation of respiration with inhalation of carbon dioxide.

The use of this inhalation has now become general in connection with anesthesia. Nearly every American anesthetic apparatus now has an attachment for a cylinder of carbon dioxide, or of a mixture of carbon dioxide and oxygen. By this means any tendency to failure of breathing on the operating table is counteracted. At the close of the operation, an inhalation of carbon dioxide is given to stimulate respiration and induce rapid elimination of a large part of the anesthetic. By this inhalation a vigorous heart action and the tonus of the peripheral circulation are also restored.

Postoperative Atelectasis and Pneumonia.---Prophylaxis.--- From the use of carbon dioxide for the purposes just described, another even more important application has developed, i.e., the prevention of postoperative atelectasis and pneumonia. Many observers have noted that after major surgical operations, the vital capacity of the lungs is often reduced to as little as one-third of the preoperative volume. The diaphragm may be elevated toward the thorax by several centimeters. In x-ray pictures, this condition of partial collapse of the chest is found to continue to some extent for several days. The position of the thorax is essentially like that which occurs in a normal man for a few minutes after vigorous forced breathing. It is, therefore, a phenomenon of acapnia.

This acapnial position of the thorax may leave considerable parts of the lungs unventilated. The airways to these parts may become obstructed and the occluded air is then absorbed into the blood.

As a result, atelectasis of a lobe, or even a massive collapse of an entire lung, may develop. From this condition, as Coryllos and Birnbaum have demonstrated experimentally, pneumonia may develop, for if pathogenic organisms happen to be present, they find in an atelectatic lung conditions favorable to their growth.

The essential correctness of this conception of the origin of postoperative atelectasis and pneumonia is attest by the prophylactic and therapeutic means that have been found effective to counteract or prevent them. In many surgical clinics in America and Germany, results have been obtained which show that when the inhalation of carbon dioxide is administered to all cases after anesthesia and operation, the lungs are reexpanded, the tonus of the respiratory muscles is restored, atelectasis is prevented, and the risk of postoperative pneumonia is virtually eliminated.

Pneumonia.---The possible benefits of a similar inhalational treatment of medical pneumonia, for example after influenza, are just now under active investigation. Henderson, Haggard, Coryllos and Birnbaum have shown that in dogs, in which pneumonia has been experimentally induced, the lungs may be cleared and the pneumonia cured by placing the animals in an atmosphere of about 8% carbon dioxide for 12 to 24 hours. In support of the claim that these are real cures is the fact that pneumococci are inhibited in growth or even killed by a lowering of pH no greater than carbon dioxide may induce. A lowering of the pH by carbon dioxide contributes also to the autolysis and liquefaction of the exudate responsible for the consolidation of the lungs in pneumonia. Many cases of pneumonia have now been treated with inhalation of carbon dioxide in oxygen; and a special tent for this treatment is being introduced by Henderson and Haggard. It is believed by those who have used it that this treatment is decidedly superior to that with oxygen alone.

Asphyxia.---Very similar to the use of carbon dioxide inhalation after anesthesia is the modern treatment of carbon monoxide asphyxia. This form of asphyxia is the cause of many thousands of deaths annually. Its commonest causes are city manufactured gas, which usually contains 20 to 30 % of carbon monoxide, and the exhaust from automobiles. Carbon monoxide forms a combination with hemoglobin which displaces oxygen. The compound is not so firm, however, as was once believed, for the carbon monoxide may be, in turn, displaced. The oxygen-carrying power of the blood is thus restored. The critical feature of carbon monoxide poisoning is the asphyxia, especially of the nervous system, because of the diminished capacity of the blood to transport oxygen. It seemed, therefore, at first that inhalation of oxygen would be the logical treatment. In practice, however, oxygen alone was found to be much less beneficial than was expected.
Investigating this problem, Henderson and Haggard found that in the development of carbon monoxide asphyxia the victim overbreathes and blows off an excessive amount of carbon dioxide. He thus develops acapnia, as well as anoxemia. On removal from the noxious atmosphere, the victim may exhibit a marked depression of breathing. The administration of oxygen is therefore, only slightly effective; for it is not adequately inhaled.

In experiments on asphyxiated animals these investigators showed that by administering a mixture of oxygen and carbon dioxide the respiration could be so stimulated, and the elimination of carbon monoxide so accelerated, that rapid recovery was induced. In the beneficial results, the relief of acapnia is almost as important as the elimination of carbon monoxide and the restoration of an ample supply of oxygen.

A special form of apparatus, the H-H Inhalator, for the administration of a mixture of oxygen and carbon dioxide to asphyxiated patients was, therefore, devised and has been widely introduced. This treatment has been so successful that many thousands of these inhalators are now in use: several hundred, for instance, in metropolitan New York, and a number corresponding to the population in Chicago and other cities. The rescue crews of the fire and police departments, the gas and electric companies, and now also the hospital ambulances generally have them. At first a mixture of 5% carbon dioxide in oxygen was used, but 7% has proved even more beneficial.
The value of this treatment is not merely for the saving of life, but also for the prevention of such postasphyxial sequelae as pneumonia, injury to the heart, and permanent nervous impairment. In many cases of brief but intense asphyxiation the patient is completely restored within an hour; he may then voluntarily and safely go back to work.

The same treatment is effectively used for resuscitation from a wide range of other noxious gases occurring in industry.

Asphyxia of the Newborn.---Out of this treatment of carbon monoxide poisoning has developed the use of inhalation for the relief of a far more common form of asphyxia: that of the newborn. The story of this development is interesting. In it the men of the rescue crews of the Chicago Fire Department have played somewhat the same part that the milkmaids immune to smallpox did in the discovery of vaccination.

Many times it happened that a physician in Chicago who had seen a resuscitation of a case of carbon monoxide asphyxia had occasion soon after to deliver a baby that would not breathe. After swinging, spanking, and dipping the child in cold and hot water, the accoucheur, unable to induce active, natural breathing, thought to telephone for one of the rescue crews and their inhalator. The ministrations of these men were in many cases so successful that within a couple of years the fire department had developed a considerable practice in this field. With justifiable pride, it claimed the saving of several hundred babies.

When this information came to the attention of the writer it occurred to him that on theoretical grounds inhalation of oxygen and carbon dioxide is exactly the method that should be most effective in combating asphyxia of the newborn. As a result of this discovery, chemical stimulation and support for the depressed respiratory center of the newborn child by inhalation of carbon dioxide is now rapidly replacing the older, and often ineffective, methods of resuscitation depending upon cutaneous stimulation.

Neonatal Pneumonia.---Prophylaxis.--- The lungs at birth are atelectatic. The first cry effects a partial dilation. Later breaths should dilate them further; but the dilation is often incomplete for several days, or even for some weeks. If during this time, pathogenic organisms happen to be present, they find conditions favorable for their growth in any part of the lungs that are still atelectatic. The number of deaths from this cause during the neonatal period is often as high as 4 for each of 100 live births. To forestall this hazard, it has long been the custom to stimulate the child to cry at least once daily. For this purpose some painful stimulus, such as stinging of the soles of its feet with an elastic rubber band, is applied. Experience demonstrates, however, that a premature or weak child may not be adequately stimulated and pneumonia may develop. A more humane, scientific and effective method of inducing dilation of the lungs is the routine administration to all babies during the first week or two of life of 5 or 10 minute inhalations of oxygen and 7 or 8 % carbon dioxide. The mixture is entirely safe for general use by nurses and midwives. Higher concentrations can be used effectively on difficult cases, but preferably only by those who have experience in the use of such concentrations in connection with anesthesia.

Angina Pectoris and Intermittent Claudication.----In most of the applications of inhalational treatment discussed in the foregoing pages the influence of carbon dioxide upon respiration is chiefly involved. The equally important influences of carbon dioxide upon the hear and the peripheral blood- vessels have not as yet been exploited to an equal degree. Henderson and his collaborators showed many years ago that under certain experimental conditions the heart tends to develop a partial tetanus or cramp, and that this condition may be overcome by means of carbon dioxide. They showed also that, owing to the loss of muscular tonus in animals under prolonged anesthesia and operation, the blood stagnates in the peripheral vessels, the venous return to the right heart decreases progressively, and the circulation finally comes to a standstill.
With these considerations as a physiological background, the influence of carbon dioxide inhalation has recently been tried on several cases of angina pectoris. This is not an emergency treatment, but a therapy for prolonged application. It is administered for 10 to 15 minutes at a time 2 or 3 times a day. The method of inhalation is essentially like that applied by Henderson,, Haggard and Coburn, and by White, after anesthesia and operation. As the inhalation consists of carbon dioxide in air, instead of in oxygen, its cost, aside from the control apparatus, is small.
The effects of this treatment are a distinct improvement in the color and temperature of the lips and skin, indicating an effect upon the peripheral circulation somewhat like that of amyl nitrate. Arterial pressure and the pulse rate are not increased, although a markedly fuller circulation is evident. The sense of oppression in the chest and the pain referred to the shoulder and arm is considerably decreased; it may cease altogether for some hours after the inhalation. After some weeks of daily inhalations, the capacity to take moderate exercise is markedly increased.
This inhalation has also been used upon a few cases of intermittent claudication. A marked improvement in the local circulation resulted both under the inhalational and as a cumulative effect of the treatment for some weeks. When it was discontinued , the patients soon relapsed into their previous condition.

Drowning and Electric Shock.--- The accepted treatment of the victims of drowning and electric shock is the Shafer prone pressure method of artificial respiration. Experience has demonstrated that the return of natural breathing is considerably aided and accelerated by the administration oxygen and carbon dioxide from an inhalator, while artificial respiration is being applied. Not only are the lungs thus supplied with a high concentration of oxygen, but the depressed respiratory center is also stimulated by the carbon dioxide to an earlier renewal of neural activity than would otherwise occur.

Catatonia.---Finally, mention may be made of the extraordinary observations reported by the late A.S. Lovenhart, in which he found that inhalation of carbon dioxide to cases of catatonia induced a temporary restoration of intelligence and mental responsiveness. The simplest explanation of the results in these cases is attained by postulating an habitual contraction of blood-vessels in the brain of the catatonic patient, similar to that in the heart and limbs of the cases discussed in the previous section. If this view is correct, the beneficial effects of the inhalation are due to improvement in the circulation in the brain under the influence of carbon dioxide upon the finer blood vessels.

 

[Blossom]

Actually I wasn't trying to promote people seeing doctors or respiratory therapists. In fact I think it would be great for people to be empowered enough to manage their own health through reasonable diet and lifestyle measures in order to minimize or eliminate the need for medical care. I'm pretty sure that if one went to a physician or respiratory therapist about optimizing CO2 all they would get is a cross eyed look and a speech about CO2 being a toxic metabolic poison.
I did find some information on the levels of inhaled CO2 considered toxic by the CDC, for what it's worth, and I will post it when I have a real computer available later today as I'm currently on a mobile device. Basically over 7% according to the CDC chart I read is entering the danger zone. I thought I had read that somewhere before but couldn't remember where and information on CO2 seems hard to come by.

IMHO, the CDC is not authoritative. It is a government controlled advisory dispensing opinions. We'd need to see what their data is, if they have any.

For me, CDC would have a conflict of interest. Government's role is to control (or manage) its population based on financial and political considerations.

I agree. That's why I said ' for what it's worth'. I'm almost tempted to go to graduate school myself and make this my area of research. I would love to see this topic studied by someone who doesn't think of CO2 as simply a waste product. I would have no idea where to begin though and I get the feeling that corruption is rampant in scientific research.

 

[Blossom]

Actually I wasn't trying to promote people seeing doctors or respiratory therapists. In fact I think it would be great for people to be empowered enough to manage their own health through reasonable diet and lifestyle measures in order to minimize or eliminate the need for medical care. I'm pretty sure that if one went to a physician or respiratory therapist about optimizing CO2 all they would get is a cross eyed look and a speech about CO2 being a toxic metabolic poison. ... information on CO2 seems hard to come by.

Only dangerous treatments are profitable to study in today's corruption called science.

Y. Henderson had already enough data in 1940 to show that CO2 therapy (i.e., inhalation) is "extremely safe" (in Peat's phrase). But you're right B, they don't teach MD's about this. Here's Henderson's, I think classic, review from Cyclopedia of Medicine.

THERAPEUTICS. ----In Anesthesia.--- In 1920, Henderson, Haggard and Coburn carried their observations to the clinic and found that when inhalations of carbon dioxide ( 8% ) in air were administered to patients after major surgical operations under open ether anesthesia, the effects were strikingly beneficial. With the return of deep breathing, the cyanosis then common after anesthesia disappeared. The cutaneous circulation improved. The skin changed in color and temperature, from blue- gray and cold to pink and warm. The volume of the pulse, previously thready, rapidly became full; and arterial pressure was restored to normal. Owing to the increased volume of breathing, the anesthetic (ether) was rapidly ventilated out of the blood and consciousness returned within a few minutes, even after profound anesthesia. Nausea and vomiting were either greatly reduced or entirely absent and after the inhalation the patient dropped off to sleep.

In continuation of these observations, White found that when slow hemorrhage occurs after operations upon the brain, the rate of breathing gradually decreases until death is imminent. In several of such cases life was saved by stimulation of respiration with inhalation of carbon dioxide.

The use of this inhalation has now become general in connection with anesthesia. Nearly every American anesthetic apparatus now has an attachment for a cylinder of carbon dioxide, or of a mixture of carbon dioxide and oxygen. By this means any tendency to failure of breathing on the operating table is counteracted. At the close of the operation, an inhalation of carbon dioxide is given to stimulate respiration and induce rapid elimination of a large part of the anesthetic. By this inhalation a vigorous heart action and the tonus of the peripheral circulation are also restored.

Postoperative Atelectasis and Pneumonia.---Prophylaxis.--- From the use of carbon dioxide for the purposes just described, another even more important application has developed, i.e., the prevention of postoperative atelectasis and pneumonia. Many observers have noted that after major surgical operations, the vital capacity of the lungs is often reduced to as little as one-third of the preoperative volume. The diaphragm may be elevated toward the thorax by several centimeters. In x-ray pictures, this condition of partial collapse of the chest is found to continue to some extent for several days. The position of the thorax is essentially like that which occurs in a normal man for a few minutes after vigorous forced breathing. It is, therefore, a phenomenon of acapnia.

This acapnial position of the thorax may leave considerable parts of the lungs unventilated. The airways to these parts may become obstructed and the occluded air is then absorbed into the blood.

As a result, atelectasis of a lobe, or even a massive collapse of an entire lung, may develop. From this condition, as Coryllos and Birnbaum have demonstrated experimentally, pneumonia may develop, for if pathogenic organisms happen to be present, they find in an atelectatic lung conditions favorable to their growth.

The essential correctness of this conception of the origin of postoperative atelectasis and pneumonia is attest by the prophylactic and therapeutic means that have been found effective to counteract or prevent them. In many surgical clinics in America and Germany, results have been obtained which show that when the inhalation of carbon dioxide is administered to all cases after anesthesia and operation, the lungs are reexpanded, the tonus of the respiratory muscles is restored, atelectasis is prevented, and the risk of postoperative pneumonia is virtually eliminated.

Pneumonia.---The possible benefits of a similar inhalational treatment of medical pneumonia, for example after influenza, are just now under active investigation. Henderson, Haggard, Coryllos and Birnbaum have shown that in dogs, in which pneumonia has been experimentally induced, the lungs may be cleared and the pneumonia cured by placing the animals in an atmosphere of about 8% carbon dioxide for 12 to 24 hours. In support of the claim that these are real cures is the fact that pneumococci are inhibited in growth or even killed by a lowering of pH no greater than carbon dioxide may induce. A lowering of the pH by carbon dioxide contributes also to the autolysis and liquefaction of the exudate responsible for the consolidation of the lungs in pneumonia. Many cases of pneumonia have now been treated with inhalation of carbon dioxide in oxygen; and a special tent for this treatment is being introduced by Henderson and Haggard. It is believed by those who have used it that this treatment is decidedly superior to that with oxygen alone.

Asphyxia.---Very similar to the use of carbon dioxide inhalation after anesthesia is the modern treatment of carbon monoxide asphyxia. This form of asphyxia is the cause of many thousands of deaths annually. Its commonest causes are city manufactured gas, which usually contains 20 to 30 % of carbon monoxide, and the exhaust from automobiles. Carbon monoxide forms a combination with hemoglobin which displaces oxygen. The compound is not so firm, however, as was once believed, for the carbon monoxide may be, in turn, displaced. The oxygen-carrying power of the blood is thus restored. The critical feature of carbon monoxide poisoning is the asphyxia, especially of the nervous system, because of the diminished capacity of the blood to transport oxygen. It seemed, therefore, at first that inhalation of oxygen would be the logical treatment. In practice, however, oxygen alone was found to be much less beneficial than was expected.
Investigating this problem, Henderson and Haggard found that in the development of carbon monoxide asphyxia the victim overbreathes and blows off an excessive amount of carbon dioxide. He thus develops acapnia, as well as anoxemia. On removal from the noxious atmosphere, the victim may exhibit a marked depression of breathing. The administration of oxygen is therefore, only slightly effective; for it is not adequately inhaled.

In experiments on asphyxiated animals these investigators showed that by administering a mixture of oxygen and carbon dioxide the respiration could be so stimulated, and the elimination of carbon monoxide so accelerated, that rapid recovery was induced. In the beneficial results, the relief of acapnia is almost as important as the elimination of carbon monoxide and the restoration of an ample supply of oxygen.

A special form of apparatus, the H-H Inhalator, for the administration of a mixture of oxygen and carbon dioxide to asphyxiated patients was, therefore, devised and has been widely introduced. This treatment has been so successful that many thousands of these inhalators are now in use: several hundred, for instance, in metropolitan New York, and a number corresponding to the population in Chicago and other cities. The rescue crews of the fire and police departments, the gas and electric companies, and now also the hospital ambulances generally have them. At first a mixture of 5% carbon dioxide in oxygen was used, but 7% has proved even more beneficial.
The value of this treatment is not merely for the saving of life, but also for the prevention of such postasphyxial sequelae as pneumonia, injury to the heart, and permanent nervous impairment. In many cases of brief but intense asphyxiation the patient is completely restored within an hour; he may then voluntarily and safely go back to work.

The same treatment is effectively used for resuscitation from a wide range of other noxious gases occurring in industry.

Asphyxia of the Newborn.---Out of this treatment of carbon monoxide poisoning has developed the use of inhalation for the relief of a far more common form of asphyxia: that of the newborn. The story of this development is interesting. In it the men of the rescue crews of the Chicago Fire Department have played somewhat the same part that the milkmaids immune to smallpox did in the discovery of vaccination.

Many times it happened that a physician in Chicago who had seen a resuscitation of a case of carbon monoxide asphyxia had occasion soon after to deliver a baby that would not breathe. After swinging, spanking, and dipping the child in cold and hot water, the accoucheur, unable to induce active, natural breathing, thought to telephone for one of the rescue crews and their inhalator. The ministrations of these men were in many cases so successful that within a couple of years the fire department had developed a considerable practice in this field. With justifiable pride, it claimed the saving of several hundred babies.

When this information came to the attention of the writer it occurred to him that on theoretical grounds inhalation of oxygen and carbon dioxide is exactly the method that should be most effective in combating asphyxia of the newborn. As a result of this discovery, chemical stimulation and support for the depressed respiratory center of the newborn child by inhalation of carbon dioxide is now rapidly replacing the older, and often ineffective, methods of resuscitation depending upon cutaneous stimulation.

Neonatal Pneumonia.---Prophylaxis.--- The lungs at birth are atelectatic. The first cry effects a partial dilation. Later breaths should dilate them further; but the dilation is often incomplete for several days, or even for some weeks. If during this time, pathogenic organisms happen to be present, they find conditions favorable for their growth in any part of the lungs that are still atelectatic. The number of deaths from this cause during the neonatal period is often as high as 4 for each of 100 live births. To forestall this hazard, it has long been the custom to stimulate the child to cry at least once daily. For this purpose some painful stimulus, such as stinging of the soles of its feet with an elastic rubber band, is applied. Experience demonstrates, however, that a premature or weak child may not be adequately stimulated and pneumonia may develop. A more humane, scientific and effective method of inducing dilation of the lungs is the routine administration to all babies during the first week or two of life of 5 or 10 minute inhalations of oxygen and 7 or 8 % carbon dioxide. The mixture is entirely safe for general use by nurses and midwives. Higher concentrations can be used effectively on difficult cases, but preferably only by those who have experience in the use of such concentrations in connection with anesthesia.

Angina Pectoris and Intermittent Claudication.----In most of the applications of inhalational treatment discussed in the foregoing pages the influence of carbon dioxide upon respiration is chiefly involved. The equally important influences of carbon dioxide upon the hear and the peripheral blood- vessels have not as yet been exploited to an equal degree. Henderson and his collaborators showed many years ago that under certain experimental conditions the heart tends to develop a partial tetanus or cramp, and that this condition may be overcome by means of carbon dioxide. They showed also that, owing to the loss of muscular tonus in animals under prolonged anesthesia and operation, the blood stagnates in the peripheral vessels, the venous return to the right heart decreases progressively, and the circulation finally comes to a standstill.
With these considerations as a physiological background, the influence of carbon dioxide inhalation has recently been tried on several cases of angina pectoris. This is not an emergency treatment, but a therapy for prolonged application. It is administered for 10 to 15 minutes at a time 2 or 3 times a day. The method of inhalation is essentially like that applied by Henderson,, Haggard and Coburn, and by White, after anesthesia and operation. As the inhalation consists of carbon dioxide in air, instead of in oxygen, its cost, aside from the control apparatus, is small.
The effects of this treatment are a distinct improvement in the color and temperature of the lips and skin, indicating an effect upon the peripheral circulation somewhat like that of amyl nitrate. Arterial pressure and the pulse rate are not increased, although a markedly fuller circulation is evident. The sense of oppression in the chest and the pain referred to the shoulder and arm is considerably decreased; it may cease altogether for some hours after the inhalation. After some weeks of daily inhalations, the capacity to take moderate exercise is markedly increased.
This inhalation has also been used upon a few cases of intermittent claudication. A marked improvement in the local circulation resulted both under the inhalational and as a cumulative effect of the treatment for some weeks. When it was discontinued , the patients soon relapsed into their previous condition.

Drowning and Electric Shock.--- The accepted treatment of the victims of drowning and electric shock is the Shafer prone pressure method of artificial respiration. Experience has demonstrated that the return of natural breathing is considerably aided and accelerated by the administration oxygen and carbon dioxide from an inhalator, while artificial respiration is being applied. Not only are the lungs thus supplied with a high concentration of oxygen, but the depressed respiratory center is also stimulated by the carbon dioxide to an earlier renewal of neural activity than would otherwise occur.

Catatonia.---Finally, mention may be made of the extraordinary observations reported by the late A.S. Lovenhart, in which he found that inhalation of carbon dioxide to cases of catatonia induced a temporary restoration of intelligence and mental responsiveness. The simplest explanation of the results in these cases is attained by postulating an habitual contraction of blood-vessels in the brain of the catatonic patient, similar to that in the heart and limbs of the cases discussed in the previous section. If this view is correct, the beneficial effects of the inhalation are due to improvement in the circulation in the brain under the influence of carbon dioxide upon the finer blood vessels.

This is great! If this work was replicated today we may be able to turn the tide and see CO2 used to help people. I wonder if anyone thought to keep his procedure notes, now that would be spectacular!

 

[Blossom]

Here is what I found from the CDC on the topic of Physiological Responses to Oxygen and Carbon Dioxide in the Breathing Environment by W. Jon Williams Ph.D. with the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health Public Meeting September 17, 2009: On the topic of average displacement of oxygen in air

5% CO2 at rest results in an increase in ventilation and no restrictions within the exposure limit of 8 hours. 7% CO2 at rest results in increased ventilation and severe limitations on activity within exposure limit time of <30 minutes. 10% CO2 at rest results in increased heart rate and collapse/unconsciousness within exposure time of < 2 minutes.

I got this data from the http://www.cdc.gov website and anyone can download the entire pdf by searching the cdc website for 'physiological responses to oxygen and carbon dioxide in the breathing environment'. Remember to take this with a grain of salt since it is brought to you by the same people endorsing the current BMI scale

 

[visionofstrength]

Here is what I found from the CDC on the topic of Physiological Responses to Oxygen and Carbon Dioxide in the Breathing Environment by W. Jon Williams Ph.D. with the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health Public Meeting September 17, 2009: On the topic of average displacement of oxygen in air

5% CO2 at rest results in an increase in ventilation and no restrictions within the exposure limit of 8 hours. 7% CO2 at rest results in increased ventilation and severe limitations on activity within exposure limit time of <30 minutes. 10% CO2 at rest results in increased heart rate and collapse/unconsciousness within exposure time of < 2 minutes.

I got this data from the http://www.cdc.gov website and anyone can download the entire pdf by searching the cdc website for 'physiological responses to oxygen and carbon dioxide in the breathing environment'. Remember to take this with a grain of salt since it is brought to you by the same people endorsing the current BMI scale

Is this what you mean:
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/resource ... entWJW.pdf

There is no authority cited in there at all. It's also blatantly false, as anyone can tell who has actually done the things they're describing (or read Henderson). It's so very sad that the government sponsors this. When this is so blatantly false, it makes you wonder about the credibility of everything else they do, doesn't it?

Edit: In their defense, I see a disclaimer at the end that makes clear this is nothing more than one person's opinion:

Disclaimer:
The findings and conclusions in this presentation have not been
formally disseminated by the National Institute for Occupational
Safety and Health and should not be construed to represent any
agency determination or policy.

 

[Blossom]

I wonder if it's possible to find out how this guy arrived at his conclusions? Do you think they (as in the cdc) require any type of studies to back up the claims and if so would the evidence or research be available to a tax paying citizen? I'm not a fan myself of most of the tactics used to infringe on our lives in the guise of our best interests. One would hope there would be some checks and balances in place but maybe not.

 

[Blossom]

I suppose one could email this Dr. Williams and request his sources.

 

[visionofstrength]

I suppose one could email this Dr. Williams and request his sources.

Great idea. I just sent him this:

Dear Sir:

Would it be possible to obtain your sources for your presentation entitled, "Physiological Responses to Oxygen and Carbon Dioxide in the Breathing Environment"?

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/resource ... entWJW.pdf

I am especially interested in your sources for "Hypercarbia – Summary of Exposure/Activity Limits".
-------------------------

I'll let you know if I receive anything.
Thanks for thinking of that!

 

[Blossom]

No, Thank you VoS! I was going to do that myself . Don't you just love the forum!?!

 

[aquaman]

So for example, he suggests conditions when "not through the skin" would be safe (at least by implication):
1. as long as the nerves have adapted to a higher concentration, and
2. the concentration is not so high that the membranes are burned by it acidity.

OK, but neither of these conditions we can be sure of.

 

[aquaman]

For me, CDC would have a conflict of interest. Government's role is to control (or manage) its population based on financial and political considerations.

How is the government trying to control the population by withholding information about CO2?!

You're starting to sound like Burtlancast