Ray Peat Diet Gave Me A Fatty Liver?

nikotrope · Jan 13, 2015

Did you take vitamin k2 in the past? You should try vitamin k2 (the thorne one with 1mg per drop) to see if it improves things.

I dug up an answer from haidut to you:

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=4574&p=64402&hilit=vitamin+k2+liver#p64402

There's more explanation here:

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5525&p=65654&hilit=vitamin+k2+liver#p65654

Maybe if you took high doses of vitamin k2 for 2 weeks, it would stabilize things in your liver in order to be able to tolerate more caffeine, then the caffeine would flush the fat out and you'd be able to take niacinamide and aspirin to limit free fatty acids.

yoshiesque · Jan 13, 2015

i have never taken k2 ever. i did take a vitamin k complex last year (before my LFT were abnormal) but there wasnt much in it. ill take the k2 in high doses for 2 weeks and see what happens.

Maybe if you took high doses of vitamin k2 for 2 weeks, it would stabilize things in your liver in order to be able to tolerate more caffeine

The thing is ive never been a good responder to caffiene, even with sugar in it. It will make me jittery/anxious/hyperactive if i drink more than 2. if you are suggesting that the recent abnormal LFT is whats making it harder for me to tolerate caffeine, that definitely isnt it.

ALSO, you gave the same link twice?

yoshiesque · Jan 13, 2015

also i forgot to mention, i took niacin for a while by accident instead of niacinimide. could this be the reason for my abnormal LFT?

I took 500mg often, sometimes taking it twice. I even got the niacin flush reaction on several occasions. i didnt know it was niacin flush until much later. i took it on and off for a period of 6 or so months.

nikotrope · Jan 13, 2015

yoshiesque said:
ALSO, you gave the same link twice?

Oops, bad copy/paste. The first link should have been: viewtopic.php?f=56&t=4574&p=64402&hilit=vitamin+k2+liver#p64402

Concerning your caffeine tolerance, it may be related to liver problems even if the problems do not include NAFLD. See this post: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5058&p=59154&hilit=caffeine+tolerance+liver#p58940

Reducing NALFD by taking vitamin k2 is, I think, a side-effect of fixing other liver problems. And these other problems affect caffeine tolerance. This is from what I understand from the posts I linked, but apart from data haidut is providing and my feelings that my liver functions are better I can't be sure and you have to test. I will try to do blood tests when I will have time but I am moving to Japan and don't know the language so it is going to be a little hard...

visionofstrength · Jan 13, 2015

Yes, this is a great point, nikotrope. The amount of caffeine you can tolerate increases as your metabolic rate increases, and you become less hypothyroid.

It has to do with the cardinal adsorbents CO2, magnesium and ATP, which act as buffers and increase as your metabolic rate does (or your liver gets healthier). It's important to have the caffeine with food, or in the form of coffee mixed with milk, so it absorbs gradually.

yoshiesque · Jan 13, 2015

im a bit confused.

i dont think im hypothyroid as such, although i dont have optimal thyroid levels (fall within lab range but we all know that doesnt mean anything).

I thought coffee/caffeine is bad when you are having energy issues like hypothyroidism, adrenal fatigue etc.

my current issues are - IBS, fatigue, get dizzy here and there throughout the day, concentration issues, poor sleep - none of which are related to the abnormal LFTs - they existed for long time before this.

the caffeine recommendations seem like they will make things worse. i see lots of articles from doctors etc saying coffee is bad in such scenarios. caffeine and any stimulant basically.

visionofstrength · Jan 14, 2015

yoshiesque said:
im a bit confused.

i dont think im hypothyroid as such, although i dont have optimal thyroid levels (fall within lab range but we all know that doesnt mean anything).

I thought coffee/caffeine is bad when you are having energy issues like hypothyroidism, adrenal fatigue etc.

my current issues are - IBS, fatigue, get dizzy here and there throughout the day, concentration issues, poor sleep - none of which are related to the abnormal LFTs - they existed for long time before this.

the caffeine recommendations seem like they will make things worse. i see lots of articles from doctors etc saying coffee is bad in such scenarios. caffeine and any stimulant basically.

Here's Peat's article on caffeine:
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/caffeine.shtml

I think it answers all your questions, but if after reading it you still feel confused, please let me know?

nikotrope · Jan 14, 2015

yoshiesque said:
im a bit confused.

i dont think im hypothyroid as such, although i dont have optimal thyroid levels (fall within lab range but we all know that doesnt mean anything).

I thought coffee/caffeine is bad when you are having energy issues like hypothyroidism, adrenal fatigue etc.

my current issues are - IBS, fatigue, get dizzy here and there throughout the day, concentration issues, poor sleep - none of which are related to the abnormal LFTs - they existed for long time before this.

the caffeine recommendations seem like they will make things worse. i see lots of articles from doctors etc saying coffee is bad in such scenarios. caffeine and any stimulant basically.

I agree that you need to fix your caffeine tolerance problem or your problems will get worse with more caffeine, that's why I told you that maybe vitamin k2 could improve that.

Your current issues seems to be related to the liver though. What you describe is related to estrogen, serotonin and histamine being too high. And the liver should detox endotoxins, estrogen and histamine. Especially if you raised your temps and pulse and still have these issues.

From lab tests your results might have been "normal" for years but they were not optimal. You could have had a small NAFLD but the lab results might have an upper limit too high. See this post (again from haidut): viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5525&p=65319&hilit=fatty+liver#p65295

Also your problems could have been from PUFA when you were on a classic diet and from low-carb when you were low-carbing (I don't know what you ate before peating just assuming) and now it's from the fatty liver. If your "bad" hormones were always high, it would cause your problems and could be from these 3 sources.

superhuman · Jan 14, 2015

Hmm really. So the caffeine thing people talk about that the body gets used to the caffeine or whatever. Is that just better liver or higher metabolism that is happening?

And you can then increase the intake to match your new better metabolism and liver health?

And where is the limit?

nikotrope · Jan 14, 2015

When I started 2 weeks ago, a 200mg dose of caffeine would make me jittery but not anymore. I don't know if vitamin k2 had an effect, I just suppose it did.

Furthermore I feel as good as before but with less calories, my estrogen symptoms seems to have diminished and my CO2 increased (my control pause improved, I don't know if it's relevant but let's say it is).

From the results, my liver seems better. I'm pretty sure I metabolize my carbs more efficiently (more CO2, less calories/food required), so I would say it improved my metabolism too.

I'm up from 400mg to 800mg of caffeine and could probably go higher. I took 600-700mg the fourth day I started and it made me far too excited (couldn't sleep before 3AM). And now I can take 800mg without noticing it and in a shorter amount of time.

I don't know the limit, I think RP says he takes 1200mg each day. But when your metabolism and liver are fine, I don't know if caffeine is still necessary.

visionofstrength · Jan 14, 2015

Peat only uses strong coffee and has written in email that coffee is much more than caffeine. But yes, the amount of strong coffee he drinks even now, at 78, would contain 1200 mg of caffeine. I use instant coffee to make it convenient for me.

I think you may be right about the effects of the higher doses of K2, if you have all the other peatian compounds, including coffee.

I'm testing increasing the dosage of K2-MK4 to 15 mg @ 6-8 times a day, along with lots of D from UV-B bulbs.

I'm curious if you could please let me know how many of the proposed RDAs you do? They're posted here:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=5551&start=30#p66013

yoshiesque · Jan 21, 2015

an update - it seems that coffee might be making my IBS symptoms worse - i already have issues with diarhea, and coffee seems to make me get more diarrhea plus gassy all the time.

Such_Saturation · Jan 23, 2015

yoshiesque said:
an update - it seems that coffee might be making my IBS symptoms worse - i already have issues with diarhea, and coffee seems to make me get more diarrhea plus gassy all the time.

I suggest caffeine powder.

Green · Jan 30, 2015

Such_Saturation said:
yoshiesque said:

an update - it seems that coffee might be making my IBS symptoms worse - i already have issues with diarhea, and coffee seems to make me get more diarrhea plus gassy all the time.

Click to expand...

I suggest caffeine powder.

Why?

Such_Saturation · Jan 30, 2015

Green said:
Such_Saturation said:

yoshiesque said:

an update - it seems that coffee might be making my IBS symptoms worse - i already have issues with diarhea, and coffee seems to make me get more diarrhea plus gassy all the time.

Click to expand...

I suggest caffeine powder.

Click to expand...

Why?

Because of the polyphenols and mold in coffee.

jyb · Jan 30, 2015

Such_Saturation said:
Because of the polyphenols and mold in coffee.

Mold doesn't get killed in the roasting (very high temp)?

I doubt the coffee beans I buy and grind myself are moldy though...at least no symptoms.

Peata · Jan 30, 2015

nikotrope said:
When I started 2 weeks ago, a 200mg dose of caffeine would make me jittery but not anymore. I don't know if vitamin k2 had an effect, I just suppose it did.

Furthermore I feel as good as before but with less calories, my estrogen symptoms seems to have diminished and my CO2 increased (my control pause improved, I don't know if it's relevant but let's say it is).

From the results, my liver seems better. I'm pretty sure I metabolize my carbs more efficiently (more CO2, less calories/food required), so I would say it improved my metabolism too./quote]

This is where I want to be too.

Such_Saturation · Jan 30, 2015

jyb said:
Such_Saturation said:

Because of the polyphenols and mold in coffee.

Click to expand...

Mold doesn't get killed in the roasting (very high temp)?

I doubt the coffee beans I buy and grind myself are moldy though...at least no symptoms.

It grows after it gets roasted.

jyb · Jan 31, 2015

Such_Saturation said:
jyb said:

Such_Saturation said:

Because of the polyphenols and mold in coffee.

Click to expand...

Mold doesn't get killed in the roasting (very high temp)?

I doubt the coffee beans I buy and grind myself are moldy though...at least no symptoms.

Click to expand...

It grows after it gets roasted.

Oh in that case, you should definitely be concerned about coconut oil.

Years back when I asked Ray about mould in coconut oil, and possibly other things like coffee, he replied that at the time of being bought by the consumer, contamination doesn't seem to be a problem anymore because studies show a positive effect. Unlike other mouldy things on the shelve. But coconut oil is indeed pretty mouldy when it is packaged, the mould doesn't all survive over time *apparently*.

superhuman · Jan 31, 2015

RP: The liver, to the extent that it's injured, will ruin the whole organism. It's the chemist for the whole organism. If you're starving and not getting enough protein especially, or not enough B-vitamins, your liver loses the ability to detoxify, and you get gross hormone imbalances. That can lead to progressive inflammation, fibrosis - and as these processes get more serious, the liver becomes a larger source of nitric oxide. At the point that it's becoming inflamed and cirrhotic, then it starts secreting nitric oxide to the whole system. The lungs, with an acute injury to the liver, the lungs will become acutely inflamed. When they transplant a liver, they've measured the sick person's nitric oxide very high. When they put in a new liver, suddenly the nitric oxide is low and the lungs suddenly begin working more efficiently, demonstrating that the liver is poisoning the lungs so that the oxygen doesn't get through efficiently. With the brain - same thing is happening. Edema is produced in the brain by the endotoxin / nitric oxide combination. The ammonia produced by the liver which is being injured was traditional explanation for why the brain has problems in proportion to the liver, but now it's known that ammonia is activating the nerves that are excited by the glutamic acid - MSG, excitatory amino acids - and those excitatory amino acids act largely through nitric oxide. So depression, anxiety, and I assume aggression is part of this mixture of gradual poisoning to different degrees.

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