Health keeps declining - adverse effects from many "Peaty" supplements?

[ProstateProblem]

Is very high or over the range ?
What is the actual number?

My SHBG is consistently between 60 and 70 nmol/l.
Lab range is 20-55 nmol/l.

 

[Vanset]

It could be over the range, but you know even if the SBHG is high but still within the range in the BB world they consider it bad, yet generally Ray is more ok with high SHBG within the range if I recall correctly.

yeah i know, but i largely depends on his free t. generally if someone has good insulin sensitivity/low fasting insulin and good liver function, yet he, for whatever reason, doesn't produce much steroid hormones it results in a hormonal profile of: high/average total t, high shbg, low free t, low estradiol. he has low pregnenolone. free test here is crucial to actually know what's happening IMO

 

[ProstateProblem]

average/high t, low estradiol and over the range shbg would cause hypogonadal symptoms. high bilirubin and high shbg could be a liver problem. have you ever tested your total cholesterol and ldl?

your symptoms supposedly started around puberty which adds to the whole picture. ever tried trt?

also test your free testosterone.

Total cholesterol and ldl are perfectly within range.

Free testosterone is obviously low with skyhigh SHBG, although I've read multiple opinions that question the merit of "free" testosterone.

My symptoms started when my puberty ended or my puberty ended when my symptoms started. I've always had the feeling that my puberty was halted abruptly.

I'm 1.5 inches taller than my dad was in his young years so i've had normal height growth but my bones are extremely thin (I'm 5'11" yet have 6" wrists and 8" ankles).
My skeleton stopped growing in thickness at the exact moment that I stopped growing in height (age 16 - my genitals, facial hair and body hair suddenly stopped growing as well).

 

[Vanset]

My SHBG is consistently between 60 and 70 nmol/l.
Lab range is 20-55 nmol/l.

i know this is a ray peat forum and i don't know if what i'm about to say is against the rules, but IMO you should do a fresh thyroid panel and sex steroids panel and check out the testosterone subreddit and compare your results with the folks there and make a post. you can use the search function to search for 'high shbg' and check if your hormonal profile is similar to other people who are experiencing symptoms. there are some experienced users posting there and even trt doctors. good luck.

 

[Gustav3Y]

My SHBG is consistently between 60 and 70 nmol/l.
Lab range is 20-55 nmol/l.

I appreciate that you have done several tests to have a better understating of what is constant and what is transient.

 

[ProstateProblem]

i know this is a ray peat forum and i don't know if what i'm about to say is against the rules, but IMO you should do a fresh thyroid panel and sex steroids panel and check out the testosterone subreddit and compare your results with the folks there and make a post. you can use the search function to search for 'high shbg' and check if your hormonal profile is similar to other people who are experiencing symptoms. there are some experienced users posting there and even trt doctors. good luck.

I have been a patient for quite some time at one of the most reputable hrt clinics in Europe.
Eventually, the doctor told me he could not help me because I reacted badly to everything he prescribed.

I tried trt for one month (using a cream). My total testosterone was over 1500 ng/dl, free testosterone was way over range as well, estradiol and estrone stayed low (so I'm not a strong aromatizer).
The only effects I got were a worsening of my symptoms: insomnia, irritability, anhedonia, low libido, erectile dysfunction, low ejaculation volume, prostate swelling...
Not what you'd expect from a high testosterone level.

Similarly, DHEA and pregnenolone always backfired as well. Being orals, these also raised my estradiol and gave me jaundice and pale stools.

Effects from NDT were similar.

Since these experiences, I'm relatively convinced that my problem is not hormonal in origin.
I suspect that my high SHBG and low pregnenolone and DHEAs are rather symptoms of some other, more fundamental (liver or metabolic) dysfunction.

 

[Gustav3Y]

For someone who would consider themselves stressed one would expect higher DHEA.
Your Cortisol is also low?

 

[Vanset]

I have been a patient for quite some time at one of the most reputable hrt clinics in Europe.
Eventually, the doctor told me he could not help me because I reacted badly to everything he prescribed.

I tried trt for one month (using a cream). My total testosterone was over 1500 ng/dl, free testosterone was way over range as well, estradiol and estrone stayed low (so I'm not a strong aromatizer).
The only effects I got were a worsening of my symptoms: insomnia, irritability, anhedonia, low libido, erectile dysfunction, low ejaculation volume, prostate swelling...
Not what you'd expect from a high testosterone level.

Similarly, DHEA and pregnenolone always backfired as well. Being orals, these also raised my estradiol and gave me jaundice and pale stools.

Effects from NDT were similar.

Since these experiences, I'm relatively convinced that my problem is not hormonal in origin.
I suspect that my high SHBG and low pregnenolone and DHEAs are rather symptoms of some other, more fundamental (liver or metabolic) dysfunction.

trt can be challenging to dial in and the more isn't necessiraly better, it requires a good specialist and constant monitoring, but it could be just like you're saying - chicken or the egg kind of situation.

by your cholesterol being in range - what to you mean? in general for best steroidgenesis your total cholesterol should be at around 200-230. it would overall be easier for people to try to contribute if you actually posted your labs. thyroid panel and sex hormones, liver panel, lipids and so on.

 

[Gustav3Y]

I tried trt for one month (using a cream). My total testosterone was over 1500 ng/dl, free testosterone was way over range as well, estradiol and estrone stayed low (so I'm not a strong aromatizer).
The only effects I got were a worsening of my symptoms: insomnia, irritability, anhedonia, low libido, erectile dysfunction, low ejaculation volume, prostate swelling...
Not what you'd expect from a high testosterone level.

Let's say with 1500ng/dl maybe you also had a lot of DHT converted if E2 and E1 conversion was low?
You mentioned even insomnia and irritability and even prostate swelling which could also be DHT since it is obviously not E2. Normally on this forum people attribute all those issues to E2, but I am not entirely sure it is so knowing some other people had low E2 and felt similarly.

 

[ProstateProblem]

by your cholesterol being in range - what to you mean? in general for best steroidgenesis your total cholesterol should be at around 200-230. it would overall be easier for people to try to contribute if you actually posted your labs. thyroid panel and sex hormones, liver panel, lipids and so on.

I don't want to write down/photograph 20+ pages of lab results, but here you have a summary of my ranges over the years.

Cholesterol
cholesterol: 153-193 mg/dL; lab range: 120-200 mg/dL
HDL: 55-64 mg/dL; lab range: 40-109 mg/dL
LDL: 83-118; lab range: 0-114 mg/dL
triglycerides: 57-98 mg/dL; lab range: 30-170 mg/dL

Liver markers.
GOT: 19-20 U/L; lab range: 10-37 U/L
GPT: 12-15 U/L; lab range: 9-40 U/L
alkaline phosphatise: 148-160 U/L; lab range:100-300 U/L
GGT: 11-15 U/L; lab range: 8-61 U/L
LDH: 268-275; lab range: 240-420 U/L
bilirubin total: 1.05-1.26 mg/dL; lab range: 0.2-1.2 mg/dL
bilirubin direct (conjugated): 0.39-0.45 mg/dL; lab range: 0-0.3 mg/dL

Not gonna post sex hormones since multiple measurements were influenced by me taking DHEA or testosterone.

TSH and thyroid labs I found to be heavily influenced by the quality of my sleep the night prior to the blood draw.
Good sleep leads to a TSH value around 1 mU/L whereas poor sleep leads to a TSH value between 1.5 and 2 mU/L (lab range 0.3-4.5 mU/L).
Free T3 is hard to compare since the reference ranges change a lot between different laboratories.
Good sleep leads to a free T3 value in the upper 10% of the reference range whereas poor sleep leads to a free T3 value in the upper half of the reference range.

 

[ProstateProblem]

Now you may be onto something.

I do have a diagnosis of biliary sludge (it's the reason I have UDCA at hand).

I did the olive oil liver flush 7 times.
While I'm convinced that the green "stones" that are expelled are simply a saponified olive oil/bile mixture, the first time I also expelled some very small tan, red and black stones. Unfortunately that did nothing to improve my health.

There are two cholagogues that are effective to me: artichoke and quince.
Whenever I cook those and drink the cooking water, I get a strong pressure in my liver/gallbladder area.
Therefore I always backed down from using these remedies.

I have been applying your tips for the past week. I only drink hot water and apply a hot pack to my liver area after every meal. Initially, this resulted in a similar (albeit less strong) pressure sensation in my liver area, insomnia and a decreased body temperature. These side effects are getting better.

I will add artichoke or quince water to this treatment plan and report back.

Reporting back on this.

I can now say that applying hot packs to my liver are, drinking hot water and taking cholagogues all worsen my symptoms and give me a sensation of pressure in the upper right quadrant of the abdomen.

Conversely, buscopan, which relaxes the sphincter of Oddi and is part of the standard treatment for biliary colics, improves all of my symptoms.

Therefore, I think that it is a reasonable conclusion that I suffer from a partial functional blockage of the bile ducts, which in turn affects my digestion and liver function.

Obviously, buscopan is not a suitable long term solution since it slows down digestion and reduces bile flow and bile salt excretion.

I have started taking a daily magnesium supplement to help with the relaxation of the sphincter of Oddi and will continue with the hot packs, hot drinks and cholagogues.

Does anyone know a (preferably European) web shop where I can buy good quality Chanca Piedra?

 

[Hugh Johnson]

I may have missed a few posts, so I might be repeating suggestions here.

I suggest looking into temperature reset. There is a thread somewhere on the forum. I also would look into hypoventilation, aka buteyko method. I found great results in forcing my body temp up while breathing less.

Inline bed might also help your digestion.

I also suggest trying out progesterone, it cures almost everything. Its really easy for men to use too.

 

[maillol]

No one wants to talk about this here but vitamin A toxicity would be interesting to investigate in your case. My eBooks
@ProstateProblem the books are free

I second this. I had almost all of your symptoms ProstateProblem. Terrible insomnia especially exacerbated by exercise. Felt cold all the time. No libido. Going low A has fixed it all.

Also reduce iron intake, don't cook in cast iron pans.

 

[GreekDemiGod]

what time do you go to bed? nd do you get blue light exposeure late in the day?

 

[InChristAlone]

Reporting back on this.

I can now say that applying hot packs to my liver are, drinking hot water and taking cholagogues all worsen my symptoms and give me a sensation of pressure in the upper right quadrant of the abdomen.

Conversely, buscopan, which relaxes the sphincter of Oddi and is part of the standard treatment for biliary colics, improves all of my symptoms.

Therefore, I think that it is a reasonable conclusion that I suffer from a partial functional blockage of the bile ducts, which in turn affects my digestion and liver function.

Obviously, buscopan is not a suitable long term solution since it slows down digestion and reduces bile flow and bile salt excretion.

I have started taking a daily magnesium supplement to help with the relaxation of the sphincter of Oddi and will continue with the hot packs, hot drinks and cholagogues.

Does anyone know a (preferably European) web shop where I can buy good quality Chanca Piedra?

Definitely sounds like blockage of the bile ducts. Good on you for figuring it out!

 

[Parrot]

Reporting back on this.

I can now say that applying hot packs to my liver are, drinking hot water and taking cholagogues all worsen my symptoms and give me a sensation of pressure in the upper right quadrant of the abdomen.

Conversely, buscopan, which relaxes the sphincter of Oddi and is part of the standard treatment for biliary colics, improves all of my symptoms.

Therefore, I think that it is a reasonable conclusion that I suffer from a partial functional blockage of the bile ducts, which in turn affects my digestion and liver function.

Obviously, buscopan is not a suitable long term solution since it slows down digestion and reduces bile flow and bile salt excretion.

I have started taking a daily magnesium supplement to help with the relaxation of the sphincter of Oddi and will continue with the hot packs, hot drinks and cholagogues.

Does anyone know a (preferably European) web shop where I can buy good quality Chanca Piedra?

Not European, but Herbosophy in Western Australia make a good quality Chanca Piedra. I have used it and believe it helped.

 

[Korven]

Reporting back on this.

I can now say that applying hot packs to my liver are, drinking hot water and taking cholagogues all worsen my symptoms and give me a sensation of pressure in the upper right quadrant of the abdomen.

Conversely, buscopan, which relaxes the sphincter of Oddi and is part of the standard treatment for biliary colics, improves all of my symptoms.

Therefore, I think that it is a reasonable conclusion that I suffer from a partial functional blockage of the bile ducts, which in turn affects my digestion and liver function.

Obviously, buscopan is not a suitable long term solution since it slows down digestion and reduces bile flow and bile salt excretion.

I have started taking a daily magnesium supplement to help with the relaxation of the sphincter of Oddi and will continue with the hot packs, hot drinks and cholagogues.

Does anyone know a (preferably European) web shop where I can buy good quality Chanca Piedra?

I have a very similar experience where taking TUDCA, which is supposed to help with cholestasis, just made me feel 100x worse. For whatever reason hot water did not produce these same unpleasant symptoms for me. The only thing I noticed was more gallbladder emptying after meals and a gradual increase in well-being over the course of a couple weeks. Based on my experience, as well as yours and others that have tried it, hot water is very potent and in a cholestatic state you may want to gradually build up to the full 4 pints per day to avoid excessive bile dumping. Too much fat in the diet can also cause issues.

Hypothyroidism (and high estrogen) also contribute to cholestasis Thyroid hormones and the hepatic handling of bilirubin. II. Effects of hypothyroidism and hyperthyroidism on the apparent maximal biliary secretion of bilirubin in the Wistar rat - PubMed. Cholestasis means less estrogen detox = more hypothyroid and high estrogen symptoms. A.k.a a vicious cycle. I have found that supplementing NDT to be quite valuable, but it was not enough on its own to fix my liver and gallbladder issues.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

TLDR: many Peat-approved supplements make my health problems worse. Can you help me to understand why?

Dear all,

I have been a lurker on this forum for quite a while and have now decided to register to ask you for help.

I am a mid-30's male. Around age 16, my health suddenly started declining. This decline was slow, but steady over the years.
At age 30, I discovered the teachings of Ray Peat.
By implementing his dietary principles, I have managed to partially recover my health.
In particular, I have improved my body temperature , my digestion and my sleep.
However, the improvements I have made are not enough to feel healthy. (For instance, my temperature went from 36.3°C to 36.6°C, bloating after meals disappeared but I still have steatorrhea and intolerance to many food additives).

In addition, I have other symptoms that keep getting worse.

My main problems are the following:
- insufficient deep and refreshing sleep; I sleep but I wake up easily and I don't feel refreshed
- intolerance to food additives (many give me insomnia)
- intolerance to any minor stress; this is starting to severely interfere with my job
- intolerance to physical exercise; even a couple sets of light weight lifting in the morning will cause insomnia at night
- anhedonia
- inability to focus; again, this is starting to severely interfere with my job
- irritability
- low libido, erectile dysfunction and premature ejaculation
- prostate swelling (pressure and pain in my groin area, frequent and sudden urge to urinate, incomplete voiding). This one in particular concerns me a lot since both my father and grandfather have been diagnosed with metastatic prostate cancer and have greatly suffered through the barbaric standard medical treatments.

Of course, I have consulted many conventional (general practitioners, gastroenterologists, urologists, endocrinologists) and alternative practitioners (orthomolecular practitioners, homeopaths, accupuncturists, osteopaths, applied kinesiologists, reiki practitioners) over the years, without any result.
Pretty much all of them have told me that I suffer from "stress", although none has ever been able to point out where this stress comes from.

Over the years, I have also tried many supplements to address my problems. Most, if not all, have made my problems worse.

Through the articles of Ray Peat and this forum, I have discovered that some supplements are not healthy at all (fish oil, SAMe, melatonin, ascorbic acid, St. John's wort).

However, each of the following supplements that seem to be approved on this forum also worsen all of the symptoms I have mentioned above:
- coconut oil & MCT oil
- vitamin A
- vitamin D
- vitamin K
- taurine
- ursodeoxycholic acid
- activated charcoal
This worsening is near instantly, is severe, and happens at low doses already (for instance a single dose of 1000 IU of vitamin D).

In addition, I react poorly to all of the following "Peaty" supplements and foods, albeit in a less dramatic way:
- coffee
- aspirin
- gelatin, collagen powder & home-made bone broth
- white button mushrooms
- pyrucet
- natural dessicated thyroid
- pregnenolone
- DHEA
- testosterone
- anything containing DMSO

I have tried most, if not all, of the above products in isolation, when well fed and from various manufacturers, without any change in outcome
I have been trying for a long time to find a common ground for my reaction to these supplements and foods, but I cannot find one.

Therefore my question to this forum: can you help me to better understand the root of my health problems?
I would be very grateful for any tip that can point me in the right direction.

Ray Peat does not endorse many suppliments, except for a particular condition. He recommends using them topically rather than orally. My health became excellent dropping all of them more than a year ago. Coffee and gelatin are the only two things on your list I use. He specifically warns against consuming mct oil, because it causes new allergies. He also warns against charcoal being untrustworthy. There is no way I would touch the stuff unless I was that desperate.

Slippery Slope SUPPLEMENTS

"When a person uses a drug, there is generally an awareness that the benefit has to be weighed against the side effects. But if something is treated as a “nutrient,” especially an “essential nutrient,” there is an implication that it won't produce undesirable side effects." -Ray Peat I have...

raypeatforum.com

 

[dlind70]

You're on a slippery slope. In my opinion what turn my health around the most was increasing copper not a lot of people eat copper foods like liver and dark chocolate these are essential and all the body functions do not skip meals protein fat and carb at each meal because each meal is promoting intestines to be moved do not skip breakfast makes the hormones for your body. What others have said I totally agree it is about intestine health and liver and gallbladder so mostly moving the intestines.

Saturated fat like cottage cheese and some Bean fiber eating together in the same meal as promoted by Mr peat our best for digestion personally I would stop all of the supplements until you can fix your digestion and poop two or three times a day. If you can manage to have a poop two or three times a day then you're on the road to better health regardless of the other stuff. Some other things that increase that are salt and well cooked potatoes put the potato in the oven 350 for 90 minutes.
Good LUCK.

 

[dlind70]

@Rinse & rePeat your insight is so valuable