Hypoglycemia With Fruit

[Recoen]

Honestly in case of low blood sugar the best way is to remember Randle cycle. Eat more fat, that’ll keep blood sugar up. Complex carbohydrates are massively overrated

That’s a very interesting thought. Though back in January I had an ION done and my FA look pretty high already. I was having these issues then too.

 

[yerrag]

Honestly in case of low blood sugar the best way is to remember Randle cycle. Eat more fat, that’ll keep blood sugar up. Complex carbohydrates are massively overrated

Play devil's advocate and imagine you're Ray Peat. WWRPS?

 

[Vegancrossfit]

Ray peat has this tendency to shut down when his advice is not working tho. Not sure what he’d say... supplements and starch free I bet?

@Recoen amazing data set. What did your provider say? if you go on a low fat diet, does your blood sugar crash even further?

 

[yerrag]

ay peat has this tendency to shut down when his advice is not working tho. Not sure what he’d say... supplements and starch free I bet?

But Vegancrossfit has this tendency to not know things (like the Randall Cycle) and with his lack of understanding of how the Randall Cycle works, begins to think Ray Peat is wrong and he is right.

So your understanding of Randall Cycle is limited to knowing that fat blocks glucose absorption and because of that blood sugar won't go down?

Did you actually begin to learn about what Ray Peat has taught in all the articles he's written and interviews given. While you're doing your Crossfit, turn off the music and listen to the interviews. And instead of watching Netflix, read his articles and books and pull yourself together.

And then you will not be exposed for your lack of mastery of the topic.

 

[Recoen]

I wonder if it’s an issue with my pancreatic islets, the alpha two cells? So I’m not producing enough glucagon? I have had insulin measured but not glucagon.

I had a friend who developed T1D in his late twenties from a virus. My issues really started after a bad virus though I’ve definitely been hypothyroid since childhood.

When I used to have bad stress responses - thankfully this hardly happens since using b vitamins and the collagen - I felt like I was “dumping” glycogen very quickly. And was very exhausted and hungry, also my muscles were really sore.

This makes me wonder about my glycogen stores too.

 

[Recoen]

Ray peat has this tendency to shut down when his advice is not working tho. Not sure what he’d say... supplements and starch free I bet?

@Recoen amazing data set. What did your provider say? if you go on a low fat diet, does your blood sugar crash even further?

The ION is a solid test but almost prohibitively expensive :/.

They wanted to put me on high dose EPA and DHA. Along with a ton of other supplements - most still have an “allopathic” approach unfortunately.

I don’t seem to have any issues with a low fat diet.

 

[Recoen]

 

[Vegancrossfit]

But Vegancrossfit has this tendency to not know things (like the Randall Cycle) and with his lack of understanding of how the Randall Cycle works, begins to think Ray Peat is wrong and he is right.

So your understanding of Randall Cycle is limited to knowing that fat blocks glucose absorption and because of that blood sugar won't go down?

Did you actually begin to learn about what Ray Peat has taught in all the articles he's written and interviews given. While you're doing your Crossfit, turn off the music and listen to the interviews. And instead of watching Netflix, read his articles and books and pull yourself together.

And then you will not be exposed for your lack of mastery of the topic.

my dude, you’re lost.

by the way, this username is sarcastic. I’m not a vegan crossfitter.

And it’s spelled Randle, not Randall. That will give you some credibility when you want to interact with someone.

instead of watching Netflix, read his articles and books and pull yourself together.

this is hilarious, considering that I don’t have a TV. My only deduction is that you’re projecting. The combination of such authoritarianism + obliviously depressed condescension + personal attacks makes me think that you should stop it with your complex carbs. I’m not used to interacting with such wastes of human behavior so I’m sorry if we derailed from helping the OP. Serotonin and low fat + more carbs might do her good, but it’s doing you a lot of wrong. Poor guy.

 

[yerrag]

my dude, you’re lost.

by the way, this username is sarcastic. I’m not a vegan crossfitter.

And it’s spelled Randle, not Randall. That will give you some credibility when you want to interact with someone.

My bad about the spelling. At least people know that happens and can understand that- except nitpickers who dig up useless minutiae. Oh, that could be you. My wrong spelling doesn't lift you up. Now pop it goes.

The sarcastic name is nice, I got thrown off. Good job. But that's the only positive I can say though.

Go do your homework before you start giving wrong advice.

 

[Vegancrossfit]

Quotes instantly, ready for more personal attacks. Keeps sinking. I’m picturing the ultimate beta dude aggressively refreshing his browser, salivating for more after a long day of being a loser.

Have a good night playboy

 

[yerrag]

Quotes instantly, ready for more personal attacks. Keeps sinking. I’m picturing the ultimate beta dude aggressively refreshing his browser, salivating for more after a long day of being a loser.

Have a good night playboy

You too. It takes one to know one.

 

[Vegancrossfit]

Again I’m sorry for the nonsense caused by the other depressive lunatic jumping in. I don’t really know how to block such parasites online, I guess it is what it is with the internet world when we all know they’d keep their wimpy mouth shut in real life.

That’s a very interesting thought. Though back in January I had an ION done and my FA look pretty high already. I was having these issues then too. View attachment 18921View attachment 18921 View attachment 18922View attachment 18923View attachment 18924

So here’s what I have to say after a more thorough look at your bloodwork.

First of all basic biochemistry says that hormone sensitive lipase will release those fatty acids when insulin and blood sugar drop. That’s perfectly normal, except that glucagon, cortisol, adrenaline and noradrenaline are involved so that’s why I’m not huge on strict ketosis and the current carnivore trends, at all.

I’m assuming your ION testing was fasted?

A mixed meal with more fats should keep you in the fed state for a longer period of time, with blood glucose and insulin being higher than in the fasted state, which prompted my suggestion.

The fact that they recommended PUFAs over mono/SFA is very mainstream medicine but their understanding of biochem is obviously sound. They also most likely have experience with truckloads of patients who improved from eating more fats.

Ultimately if low fat diets suit you better, there’s no absolute rule.

But complex carbs? Lol. Only if you wanna be an aggressive serotoninergic clown online.

 

[yerrag]

@Vegancrossfit I'm a lit bit cranky these days. Sorry for the bad vibes and the insults. We don't know each other but I'm at fault for making our impressions of each other very negative. We both want to help the OP and we have each our ways and ideas. I just needed to tell you that your use of the Randle Cycle isn't correct, and the advice to take more fats in isn't correct. Ray Peat isn't God, he can be wrong sometimes, but on the use of Randle Cycle he isn't wrong. You are. I could have said that in one post, but it got drawn out and that deflates both you and me.

When fats block glucose absorption, blood sugar has no way to go but up. This causes blood sugar to go up. This causes insulin to be secreted, which signals the liver to convert blood sugar to fatty acids. The amount of insulin secreted leads the liver to overdo it, and the blood sugar becomes low, and one goes into hypoglycemia. The only way that blood sugar will go up and stay up is when no insulin is available, as with Type 1 Diabetics.

I could prolong this discussion, but I'll stop here. As Ray Peat has already written about this. I find it frustrating that it's not only you who hasn't understood Ray Peat's principles well enough, but a lot of people here as well. It's a long diatribe if I were to expound on it. I'm sorry I had to rain down my sarcasm on you. But please, continue to learn and help people with what you know.

Thanks.

 

[Recoen]

Again I’m sorry for the nonsense caused by the other depressive lunatic jumping in. I don’t really know how to block such parasites online, I guess it is what it is with the internet world when we all know they’d keep their wimpy mouth shut in real life.



So here’s what I have to say after a more thorough look at your bloodwork.

First of all basic biochemistry says that hormone sensitive lipase will release those fatty acids when insulin and blood sugar drop. That’s perfectly normal, except that glucagon, cortisol, adrenaline and noradrenaline are involved so that’s why I’m not huge on strict ketosis and the current carnivore trends, at all.

I’m assuming your ION testing was fasted?

A mixed meal with more fats should keep you in the fed state for a longer period of time, with blood glucose and insulin being higher than in the fasted state, which prompted my suggestion.

The fact that they recommended PUFAs over mono/SFA is very mainstream medicine but their understanding of biochem is obviously sound. They also most likely have experience with truckloads of patients who improved from eating more fats.

Ultimately if low fat diets suit you better, there’s no absolute rule.

But complex carbs? Lol. Only if you wanna be an aggressive serotoninergic clown online.

The ION is supposed to be done fasted but no I wasn’t fasted. The prac said to go ahead and take it anyways sipping on Gatorade to keep my BG up.

Obviously that changes things because I was consuming sugar but still had a ton of FA in my blood.

 

[Recoen]

Something I have noticed is switching to more fruit, fruit juice, honey, and some sugar (in coffee) is causing me to produce more lactic acid - vs getting like 50-50 carbs from bread and these sources. I need more sodium bicarb for my kidneys to not burn and to for my muscles to recover after lifting. My muscles are also twitching more. My seb derm has also flared some.

I do take energin and ~20mg ttfd per day. I wonder if there’s something the bread is fortified with that I need more of. Or if it’s the composition of the bread. I’m going to make some tomorrow that’s unfortified so that should give me some clues.

 

[yerrag]

Honestly in case of low blood sugar the best way is to remember Randle cycle. Eat more fat, that’ll keep blood sugar up. Complex carbohydrates are massively overrated

The problem is this statement of attacking complex carbs. Complex carbs slow down the entry of sugar into the blood from a meal. If taking complex carbs can give allow the sugar entering blood to happen over a longer period of time, it will keep blood sugar from going too high and causing it to come down fast from an insulin response. This keeps blood sugar levels from fluctuating like a yoyo. Good blood regulation is about having a steady FBS over time.

So, I disagree that complex carbs are way overrated.

With some fiber involved, using brown rice, it takes even longer for the sugar to go into the blood. It further helps with maintaining a stable blood sugar.
It helps, but does not solve.

Having more fats will help, I would agree. Because it would slow down the absorption of sugar and keep blood sugar from going down too quickly, so long as not too much is used. If too much fats is taken, it will cause blood sugar to rise up to where insulin causes blood sugar to drop to hypoglycemic levels.

OP has to find an right blend for her condition. But at her current state, drinking OK isn't working and has to change.

 

[yerrag]

@Recoen My take is to keep it simple. Focus on the higher level things than drilling down to detail with very specialized tests. Your macro ratio can be adjusted as Vegancrossfit suggested. I'll stay away from coconut oil though as that gets metabolized quickly in the liver and doesn't block sugar absorption. Then on the carb side -If you have OJ as a drink that's fine, but it shouldn't be your main carb in a meal. It has to be a complex carb, with some fiber, so that the sugar in a meal is metered slowly into your blood over a longer stretch of time. Since you have poor glycogen stores, this is important. After a meal, sugar is being metered in from the small intestines and keeps your blood sugar from being exhausted. As far as fat goes, having a well-marbled steak would be helpful as it has a high amount of fat. That would be your protein also.

And if you are not able to go with 3 meals, more snacks as Energizer suggested.

And then use cronometer to make sure you have no deficiencies.

Hopefully, after some time, your deficiencies will be no more, and the body will not be having issues arising from having deficiencies that impede blood sugar absorption and metabolism.

Don't worry about being type 1 diabetic. I think it's the least of your concern. Your blood sugar currently drops fast, and it's not because your metabolizing sugar too quickly. It's because of insulin.

If you want to know your current state, do a 5 hr Oral Glucose Tolerance Test, so you have something to use to gauge how well your body is regulating blood sugar. I hope you got the chance to look at the OGTT graphs I had, beginning 18 years ago. Be careful in doing it, though, and be ready to stop it and to eat some bread when you feel dizzy if your blood sugar drops too quickly. Have somebody by your side when you take it. If you can't do it, it's not a problem. You can go back to doing it when you're in better conditioon.

When you''ve figured out your macro and the kind of carb to take to suit your current condition, you can then focus on improving both your glucose metabolism and your blood sugar regulation. They come hand in hand. When you're at an optimal state, you'll find improvements in health in many way. For example, your immunity. No cortisol means your thymus gland is going to be better at producing T-cells, as T-cells mature in the thymus. When your blood sugar regulation is optimal, you hardly produce insulin. With less insulin, cholesterol if not kept from converting to vitamin D. And since blood sugar is always available, your liver is always able to convert T4 to T3, and this will help you avoid days where you're feeling empty and low in energy. And about your brain fog, they're also gone because brain needs sugar for energy, and you have an adequate supply. And your body won't need to produce ketones to supply your brain with energy, as sugar is readily available for your brain.

And you won't be needing a lot of supplements to keep you going. Your body in homeostatis already produce these supplements - hormones, intermediate metabolites - a lot of stuff Dave Asprey uses - say goodbye to them. Not to say you won't need some of them as you work your way to health with good glucose metabolism and good blood sugar control.

 

[Recoen]

@Recoen My take is to keep it simple. Focus on the higher level things than drilling down to detail with very specialized tests. Your macro ratio can be adjusted as Vegancrossfit suggested. I'll stay away from coconut oil though as that gets metabolized quickly in the liver and doesn't block sugar absorption. Then on the carb side -If you have OJ as a drink that's fine, but it shouldn't be your main carb in a meal. It has to be a complex carb, with some fiber, so that the sugar in a meal is metered slowly into your blood over a longer stretch of time. Since you have poor glycogen stores, this is important. After a meal, sugar is being metered in from the small intestines and keeps your blood sugar from being exhausted. As far as fat goes, having a well-marbled steak would be helpful as it has a high amount of fat. That would be your protein also.

And if you are not able to go with 3 meals, more snacks as Energizer suggested.

And then use cronometer to make sure you have no deficiencies.

Hopefully, after some time, your deficiencies will be no more, and the body will not be having issues arising from having deficiencies that impede blood sugar absorption and metabolism.

Don't worry about being type 1 diabetic. I think it's the least of your concern. Your blood sugar currently drops fast, and it's not because your metabolizing sugar too quickly. It's because of insulin.

If you want to know your current state, do a 5 hr Oral Glucose Tolerance Test, so you have something to use to gauge how well your body is regulating blood sugar. I hope you got the chance to look at the OGTT graphs I had, beginning 18 years ago. Be careful in doing it, though, and be ready to stop it and to eat some bread when you feel dizzy if your blood sugar drops too quickly. Have somebody by your side when you take it. If you can't do it, it's not a problem. You can go back to doing it when you're in better conditioon.

When you''ve figured out your macro and the kind of carb to take to suit your current condition, you can then focus on improving both your glucose metabolism and your blood sugar regulation. They come hand in hand. When you're at an optimal state, you'll find improvements in health in many way. For example, your immunity. No cortisol means your thymus gland is going to be better at producing T-cells, as T-cells mature in the thymus. When your blood sugar regulation is optimal, you hardly produce insulin. With less insulin, cholesterol if not kept from converting to vitamin D. And since blood sugar is always available, your liver is always able to convert T4 to T3, and this will help you avoid days where you're feeling empty and low in energy. And about your brain fog, they're also gone because brain needs sugar for energy, and you have an adequate supply. And your body won't need to produce ketones to supply your brain with energy, as sugar is readily available for your brain.

And you won't be needing a lot of supplements to keep you going. Your body in homeostatis already produce these supplements - hormones, intermediate metabolites - a lot of stuff Dave Asprey uses - say goodbye to them. Not to say you won't need some of them as you work your way to health with good glucose metabolism and good blood sugar control.

I don’t think I have T1D, I was talking about glucagon and the alpha 2 islets.

Reading more of Martin’s endocrinology textbook and my increase in lactic acid symptoms - I checked my urine too and it was back to a pH of 5.5. I took more baking soda brought it back to 6.0 which really helps. Chris Masterjohn shoots for 6.4 (How Measuring My Urine pH Got Me to Love Working Out Again | Chris Masterjohn, PhD) - also my ION and other labs where I’m clearing dumping TCA and ETC intermediates tells me I’m wasting glucose through glycolysis then on to lactic acid. And because my liver is clearly not functioning optimally, my Cori cycle is struggling. This also illumines why fructose seems to be causing more lactic acid symptoms based on how it gets into the cell and it’s entry into glycolysis.

 

[yerrag]

Yes, you don't have T1D. I didn't have to say that as your blood sugar goes down quickly due to insulin. My mistake.

And as you say, the acidic urine indicates lactic acid (and probably keto acids?) Which indicates your main sugar metabolism stops at glycolysis. This makes your blood low in CO2 and it lowers tissue oxygenation such that with low oxygen going into your tissues, you're deficient in oxygen as you metabolize sugar, leaving you at glycolysis and producing lactate instead of CO2.

Taking baking soda can lower acidity, but it doesn't necessarily increase CO2, which is what you need to do. For that to happen,the lactic acid and keto acid content in blood has to come down. That happens thru the kidneys. And the kidneys are continually excreting these acids but it isn't doing so at a rate fast enough to match the rate at which your poor metabolism is producing them. At a urine pH of 5.5 (it may be lower and more acidic, as 5.5 is the low limit of pH that is read), you're very acidic and at this point the bicarbonate if it turns into CO2, the CO2 is just as quickly exhaled. As the CO2 cannot turn into carbonic acid, as carbonic acid increases acidity, and your blood won't allow any increase in acidity. The lungs can only exhale CO2, not lactic acid nor keto acid.

Does that make sense to you? Let me know if that doesn't as it's important you understand that.

 

[Recoen]

Yes, you don't have T1D. I didn't have to say that as your blood sugar goes down quickly due to insulin. My mistake.

And as you say, the acidic urine indicates lactic acid (and probably keto acids?) Which indicates your main sugar metabolism stops at glycolysis. This makes your blood low in CO2 and it lowers tissue oxygenation such that with low oxygen going into your tissues, you're deficient in oxygen as you metabolize sugar, leaving you at glycolysis and producing lactate instead of CO2.

Taking baking soda can lower acidity, but it doesn't necessarily increase CO2, which is what you need to do. For that to happen,the lactic acid and keto acid content in blood has to come down. That happens thru the kidneys. And the kidneys are continually excreting these acids but it isn't doing so at a rate fast enough to match the rate at which your poor metabolism is producing them. At a urine pH of 5.5 (it may be lower and more acidic, as 5.5 is the low limit of pH that is read), you're very acidic and at this point the bicarbonate if it turns into CO2, the CO2 is just as quickly exhaled. As the CO2 cannot turn into carbonic acid, as carbonic acid increases acidity, and your blood won't allow any increase in acidity. The lungs can only exhale CO2, not lactic acid nor keto acid.

Does that make sense to you? Let me know if that doesn't as it's important you understand that.

Yes, I do chemical engineering research on the non-linear dynamics, biochemical oscillations, of cancer glycolysis. I am very aware of the theory behind what’s going on. It’s the practical, how to fix it side that I have a hard time with. Slowing down glycolysis by eating bread vs fructose helps. I take B1 for PDH. It could definitely be not enough Mg for PDH and ATP in general.

ATP is known to inhibit glucose uptake and given my low ATP state, it makes sense why glucose is pretty rapidly clearing my blood.

I have the short range pH tape so can measure down to 3.0. My urine pH was 5.5.

The inability to become carbonic acid is problematic for the Ca+2 (and others) to leave the cell again. So they’re maintained in an excitatory state probably with increased cell death. That also means I have less available in serum to excrete hormones.

I’m going to go back to the honey Greek yogurt, 1-2eggs, carrot salad, gruyere, little OJ, collagen, little pineapple juice, bread, and rotating ground beef, oysters, and shrimp for a while. I was doing well on these things. I’ll add in some more ttfd, and try the Mg bicarb to see if that helps PDH.

I also noticed my POTs was starting to come back which makes a lot of sense now.