IdeaLabs Service - Mineral Analysis (hair and/or (toe)nail)

[yerrag]

3mm toenail is a hell of a big toenail. I wish I hadn't cut mine before this announcement was made. Waiting patiently for the nails to grow enough to send the sample. I'll have to load up on gelatin and see if that speeds up the process.

Mine grows very quickly and I would be surprised by the growth and each time I am surprised that I have been so unhygienic w/r to my toenails and fingernails.

I wonder though if the nails grow faster now that my hair doesn't grow as fast as before. As I don't think my nails used to grow as fast as they do now, in my younger years when my complaint was having bushy and unruly hair that don't want to stand down.

After all, when there's less hair, where would all that keratin go?

 

[Ledo]

Good idea, thanks, but we cannot do that, mostly for legal reasons. We cannot suggest result associations with specific conditions or symptoms of such conditions. That is for the person getting the analysis done to determine with their health care provider. Also, collecting personal and medical information triggers many compliance requirements on the data collection site, that we are really not keen on getting involved with. So, it would be just the analysis service for now and if things change legally then we can look into implementing what you suggested.

Makes sense, for the future then, thx

 

[Amazoniac]

Oh, sorry, I did not know there was a mineral craze on the forum. I thought we had one a few years ago when people were arguing if all of medicine can fit "in the anesthesiology" books:
It was just an interesting article on exercise that caught my eye. As you can guess, my suspicion is that "endurance" exercise, if beneficial at all, works through mechanisms completely different from medicine would have us believe (burning extra calories, mimicking caloric restriction, etc). So, when I saw a contrarian, well researched article, I decided to post it.

0.1% [12/12000 (as of today)], there might be a second wave. It can be a coincidence, but the topic should be at the back of your mind. Drareg bought a pair of leather boots this week and now he's spotting other warriors wearing similar products that used to pass unnoticed.
The question is: what can't be found in an anesthesiology book?


Do you have more information about the healthy subjects that defined the standard?

How much agreement have you encountered between nail and hair? Is there something that's more reliable in hair?

Are you aware of ethnical diferences in nail composition that might distort results?

Which conditions can be confounding? For example, poor nutrient supply at the extremities might lead to a certain pattern, a localized nail issue, lack of protein, and other factors that must affect what shows up in nails, perhaps compromising their quality without reflecting systemic mineral status too well.

The sheepoid with blue hoofs here finds the tool great, these are considerations to get the most out of the test.

 

[haidut]

The question is: what can't be found in an anesthesiology book?


Do you have more information about the healthy subjects that defined the standard?

How much agreement have you encountered between nail and hair? Is there something that's more reliable in hair?

Are you aware of ethnical diferences in nail composition that might distort results?

Which conditions can be confounding? For example, poor nutrient supply at the extremities might lead to a certain pattern, a localized nail issue, lack of protein, and other factors that must affect what shows up in nails, perhaps compromising their quality without reflecting systemic mineral status too well.

The sheepoid with blue hoofs here finds the tool great, these are considerations to get the most out of the test.

The hair ranges are pretty standard and based on very large groups of people. A lot of that came out of the work of Dr. Wilson (who never even mentions anesthesiology, despite his "students" being so fond of it, but there are also studies going back 30-40 years doing large scale mineral detection (usually for individual elements) in hair samples. I think a lot of that work was done after the military performed the nuclear tests on US soil in the 1950s and 1960s, so it was a farily heterogeneous population considering most Americans are originally from somewhere else.
As far as nails - there are fewer studies on those, but as we do some testing, from people of many geographical areas, ethnicities, ages, etc I am hoping we can improve on the statistical "coverage" of those ranges. Besides, so far the only concerning results we have seen are with heavy metal toxicities, and when present they are often several times over the limit, which leaves little margin for "normal" deviation due to the person's uniqueness. The tests for the nutritional elements have so far not really provided any abnormalities, except low magneisum, which is almost like vitamin D deficiency - i.e. a surrogate for thyroid function, and low in many people.
As far as discrepancies b/n hair/nail - the first thing to ensure is that both samples cover same/similar time ranges. Since a nail shows average levels of a substance roughly 3 months ago, over a period of a month the hair sample should be cut in a way that represents a similar time range, which means taking hair about ~3cm away from the scalp and with ~1cm of length. When these guidelines are followed the results are actually quite consistent (relative to the reference ranges for each sample type), but nail seems to be more sensitive to toxic element overload. For example, if hair is showing lead 1x or 2x over the limit, nail will often show 4x-6x over the limit. We noticed similar results with aluminium, iron, cadmium, tin, etc. Same with the deficiencies. If a trace mineral like selenium shows up as deficient in hair, in nail it would often be <LOD (limit of detection).
So, all in all, as Peat said as well, the value of doing only the mineral analysis is mostly in discovering toxicities that won't show up on blood tests. There is also a value in monitoring progress if one has a toxicity and is working to address it. Finally, for some of the nutritional elements there is a good correlation between wacky results there and metabolic/dietary status. Low magnesium ~= hypothyroidism, high calcium ~= dietary calcium deficiency and/or high PDH with low vitamin D, low potassium is often seen when cortisol is chronically elevated, low selenium (a cofactor for T3 synthesis) ~= low T3 levels, etc, etc.
As I mentioned in the original post - we put a lot more hope in the steroid analysis as that can directly show metabolic issues (e.g. low T3 in cell, high estradiol/cortisol, low androgens, etc) and then if mineral analysis is also done one can see how the hormonal issues affect the mineral balance. When used by themselves, the mineral analysis is probably the least useful for systemic purposes, but is good for discovering toxicities (which can, if undiscovered, undermine many pro-metabolic interventions) - i.e. steroid analysis (and especially T3, rT3, and vitamin D) being a "root-cause" analysis, which then the mineral analysis can supplement/validate.

 

[Michael Mohn]

How suitable would be earwax for steroid & mineral analysis? @haidut

 

[aguilaroja]

...we DO NOT subscribe to the interpretations (largely based on the ideas of the metabolic types, pioneered by Dr. Wilson) offered by such companies. As far as we are concerned, while the mineral analysis may provide some information as to the overall health state of the individual, it is by no means indicative of a specific metabolic "type", (mal)function of specific organs/tissues/processes, indicative of personality types, mood(s), mental/cognitive disorders, etc. The results may be indicative of dietary deficiencies and/or excess (see above quote from Dr. Peat), but context is everything when making even such basic interpretations. In our opinion, the mineral analysis should always be interpreted in combination with other biomarkers, and always under the supervision of a licensed medical professional who can make qualified decisions on causal relationships between specific values (minerals, steroids, etc) and systemic health (or pathology). ...

To re-clarify what @haidut included in hyperlink, this connection with "metabolic typing" refers to Lawrence Wilson, MD. This is different from E. Denis Wilson ("Wilson's temperature syndrome) or Samuel Wilson (Wilson's disease).

The various "Metabolic Typing" dogmas of the past half century ago seem to trace back to William Donald Kelley, DDS. (Kelley's influences included Max Gerson.) Dr. Lawrence Wilson may have his own branch, but mentions Kelley on drlwilson website Pioneers page. William Wolcott and others have various "Metabolic Typing" practices.

Quite a while back I had opportunity to discuss the "Typing" topic with Dr. Peat. (I have no wish to represent Dr. Peat, but the Kelley "Metabolic Typing" is not mentioned enthusiastically in any RP newsletter I have seen.) "Metabolic Typing" periodically recycles as a fad. @haidut, it might be a question for podcast with Dr. Peat and Mr. Roddy, as a starting point for other exploration.

 

[haidut]

How suitable would be earwax for steroid & mineral analysis? @haidut

We will do some experiments with that as well, as per my blog post on the topic, but one issue we already ran into is the amount of ear wax sample people can reliably collect. For proper analysis, we would need about 10mg from each ear and that seems to be not a small amount so most people will have to collect it over a period of several days. On the other hand, its collection is not easy due to the small amount (in absolute terms). It's basically a few pieces the size of crumbs - easily lost, smeared into a thin film when touched, etc. If it turns out we can do it with a smaller amount than 10mg then it may be become viable as a service, but would be even harder to handle due to the tiny amount. However, another issue is that ear wax is not cells (unlike nail, hair) so it is not clear what its values would represent. There is only 1 study on the topic. Since it is basically a cellular discharge produced by skin cells, IMO it makes it more similar to saliva testing (another cellular discharge) and the latter is known to not be very reliable when used on its own.
Anyways, thanks for bringing it up. We definitely want to be able to offer ear wax analysis as well but it is too early to tell if it would work. Once we do 20-30 hair and nail steroid tests, we can compare them to the ear wax results and if the correlations are good that would mean it is a viable method.

 

[haidut]

To re-clarify what @haidut included in hyperlink, this connection with "metabolic typing" refers to Lawrence Wilson, MD. This is different from E. Denis Wilson ("Wilson's temperature syndrome) or Samuel Wilson (Wilson's disease).

The various "Metabolic Typing" dogmas of the past half century ago seem to trace back to William Donald Kelley, DDS. (Kelley's influences included Max Gerson.) Dr. Lawrence Wilson may have his own branch, but mentions Kelley on drlwilson website Pioneers page. William Wolcott and others have various "Metabolic Typing" practices.

Quite a while back I had opportunity to discuss the "Typing" topic with Dr. Peat. (I have no wish to represent Dr. Peat, but the Kelley "Metabolic Typing" is not mentioned enthusiastically in any RP newsletter I have seen.) "Metabolic Typing" periodically recycles as a fad. @haidut, it might be a question for podcast with Dr. Peat and Mr. Roddy, as a starting point for other exploration.

Thanks for clarifying this. Did you actually to a recorded interview with Dr. Peat or was it just back and forth over email? Either way, is there any way you can share the gist of the discussion or at least summarize his comments so I can put them in the main post?
Thanks in advance.

P.S. Btw, long time no hear/see on the forum Hope you are doing well.

 

[yerrag]

To re-clarify what @haidut included in hyperlink, this connection with "metabolic typing" refers to Lawrence Wilson, MD. This is different from E. Denis Wilson ("Wilson's temperature syndrome) or Samuel Wilson (Wilson's disease).

The various "Metabolic Typing" dogmas of the past half century ago seem to trace back to William Donald Kelley, DDS. (Kelley's influences included Max Gerson.) Dr. Lawrence Wilson may have his own branch, but mentions Kelley on drlwilson website Pioneers page. William Wolcott and others have various "Metabolic Typing" practices.

Quite a while back I had opportunity to discuss the "Typing" topic with Dr. Peat. (I have no wish to represent Dr. Peat, but the Kelley "Metabolic Typing" is not mentioned enthusiastically in any RP newsletter I have seen.) "Metabolic Typing" periodically recycles as a fad. @haidut, it might be a question for podcast with Dr. Peat and Mr. Roddy, as a starting point for other exploration.

I second asking Peat's take on metabolic typing.

Kelley was great in that he took empirical data and classified people into metabolic types.

I started out using metabolic typing to deal with my hypoglycemia. It worked for me and I was able to find stable blood sugar and better health and greatly improved immunity.

But I had the idea then that I was consigned to being a fast oxidizer metabolic type. And accepting this meant that I had to take a specific set of supplements and avoid another set. And that certain foods were better for me. I had hoped that I would eventually become a balanced type. I would never know if I would. Perhaps I never will.

I never would have because I stumbled into a guy, a doctor, who echoed Peat's ideas on avoiding PUFAS.

I did. Going cold turkey on it for many years. I just let time flow and one day- I wasn't keeping track of time but at least 4 years went by, I decided to test myself (taking sugar on empty stomach, skipping a meal, fasting a whole day - things that would wreck me before) and I realized I am now the balanced type.

This made me understand that metabolic typing was an attempt to make sense of what we don't understand fully by relying on well-formed keen observations. It was useful in an absence of sufficient understanding, but with better understanding the idea of metabolic types as being a phenotype or a genotype, that we are stuck with it and that we have to adapt to that typecasting, is no more.

 

[Philomath]

This is part one of a two-part announcement, with the second part hopefully coming out in the next 3-4 weeks. The first part covers mineral analysis (which many of my followers are already familiar with), while the second one will hopefully cover steroid analysis. The novelty factor here is two-fold. First, in addition to the better-known mineral analysis in hair, we are now pleased to offer such analysis in (toe)nails as well. The advantages of (toe)nail analysis are discussed in more detail below. Second, the analysis of steroids in nail/hair is such a cutting edge area of research that only a handful of experiments/publications exist on the topic. In addition, those experiments/publications overwhelmingly focus either on just one or at most 2-3 (e.g. cortisol, DHEA, testosterone) of the 20+ major steroids known to endocrinology. Based on preliminary experiments, we believe we may be able to perform the analysis of most major steroids typically included as part of an annual endocrine/metabolic panel. Those include pregnenolone (P5), progesterone (P4), DHEA, testosterone (T), DHT, androsterone, estradiol (E2), estrone (E1), estriol (E3), aldosterone, cortisol, cortisone, T3 and T4. Since nail analysis is similar in nature to tissue biopsy, we hope that such steroid analysis in nails (and possibly hair) may be able to offer good insight about the intracellular steroid homeostasis for a given person, which is much more clinically relevant than blood analysis of the same steroids.

I digress, so let me back back on topic - mineral analysis in hair/nails. I would like to emphasize right from the start that while we can perform mineral analysis in both types of samples (hair or nail), we strongly prefer the latter and, more specifically, nails harvested from each of the big toes. Ideally, we need a nail sample from each toe since our experiments demonstrated (slight but non-negligible) differences in the mineral levels between each toe nail sample. Thus, a more accurate picture of mineral whole-body exposure/concentrations is obtained by combining both nail samples into a single pool for analysis (i.e. effectively averaging the values across both samples).

Interestingly enough, despite the existence of multiple studies on the topic, it appears that the advantages of nail (and disadvantages of hair) analysis are virtually unknown among companies operating in this industry. Hair mineral analysis appears to be the "industry standard" despite the well-known drawbacks of using hair for such purposes. Namely, extensive (usually at least once daily!) exposure of hair to detergent chemicals such as soaps/shampoos/conditioners/etc, dust/moisture/wind/sun from the environment, and, perhaps most importantly, the extensive cosmetic procedures to which hair is often subjected in order to change its shape, color, texture, odor, and even growth characteristics. There is also the issue of hair exposure to prescription drugs in the form of topical application of substances for hair-growth such as finasteride, minoxidil, NO donors, steroids, NSAID, etc. In contrast to hair, nails are (for the most part) not subjected to most of these "assaults" or at least not nearly as often as hair. The main issues with nail analysis are the usage of nail polish and nail polish remover liquid. However, due to the thickness of the nail, exposure to such chemicals does not seem to significantly affect the structure of the nail and/or the concentration of minerals inside, which is most certainly not the case with hair. Thus, nails are also less vulnerable than hair to chemical/physical assaults/adulterants, and their analysis is (or should be) the de-facto "scientific standard" for non-invasive, mineral analysis in tissues. When asked about it, Dr. Ray Peat (RP) also expressed the opinion that toenails (and specifically nails from the big toes) offer a more reliable sample for mineral analysis, compared to hair. Please keep in mind that Dr. Peat's quotes below do not constitute him endorsing, approving, advertising, recommending or generally encouraging people to use our (or any other) service for mineral analysis.

"RP:...The hair quickly and firmly absorbs things that it’s exposed to, from the air and water. Copper and calcium are often from the water and plumbing using in washing. Toenails are more representative of body composition. If the hair and nails have an abnormally large amount of calcium, it’s more likely to indicate a dietary deficiency than excess, since when there is a deficiency of calcium in the diet, or vitamin D, the parathyroid hormone increases, causing calcium from the bones to move into the other tissues. A vitamin K deficiency is another cause.""

"Q:...Do you have any opinion on hair mineral testing and analysis? Can it be a useful way to acquire information about mineral status and other things going on in the body, do you think?"

"RP:...Toenails are much better, because they absorb more from the body, less from environmental air and water exposure."

An important disclaimer, which is also listed on the sample hair/nail analysis reports below, is that unlike virtually all other companies offering hair mineral analysis, we DO NOT subscribe to the interpretations (largely based on the ideas of the metabolic types, pioneered by Dr. Wilson) offered by such companies. As far as we are concerned, while the mineral analysis may provide some information as to the overall health state of the individual, it is by no means indicative of a specific metabolic "type", (mal)function of specific organs/tissues/processes, indicative of personality types, mood(s), mental/cognitive disorders, etc. The results may be indicative of dietary deficiencies and/or excess (see above quote from Dr. Peat), but context is everything when making even such basic interpretations. In our opinion, the mineral analysis should always be interpreted in combination with other biomarkers, and always under the supervision of a licensed medical professional who can make qualified decisions on causal relationships between specific values (minerals, steroids, etc) and systemic health (or pathology). For more detailed information, including how to collect/harvest hair/nail samples, please visit the link below.

Mineral Analysis [hair or (toe)nail]

Basically, the mineral analysis service one can order from the link above is broken down into three (3) parts. Each one of those parts can be ordered separately, and also in combination with the rest. The parts are essentially the mineral groups available for analysis - nutritional elements (e.g. calcium, magnesium, sodium, potassium, zinc, iron, etc), toxic elements (e.g. lead, aluminium, cadmium, uranium, arsenic, etc), and miscellaneous elements found in trace amounts in humans (e.g. lithium, nickel, germanium, tin, vanadium, etc). Typically, a person orders all three (3) parts together as the results for an element from one part can support/explain the findings for an element from another part. For example, it is common for people with lead overload/toxicity to have low levels of one/more of the alkaline minerals calcium/sodium/magnesium/potassium as lead can displace those elements inside the cell. Thus, having high lead (a member of the toxic group) levels and low level(s) of one or more of the alkaline minerals (members of the nutritional group) better supports the hypothesis of lead overload/toxicity than only a finding or high lead levels, or only a finding of low level(s) of one/more of the alkaline minerals. That being said, if so desired, a person could also place an order for just the nutritional elements, just the toxic ones, just the miscellaneous ones, or any combination thereof.

Finally, attached are two sample reports of mineral analysis, for both hair and toenails, of an adult male volunteer. Those reports are provided for information purposes only. The exact report(s) delivered to the client may vary, depending on changing technology, processes, published literature, regulatory/legal mandates, preferences, etc.

I’m about ready to harvest some toenails! I usually keep them short so the length is starting to bother me!
A couple of questions: how critical is the last panel, the Additional/Miscellaneous (Germanium Barium Bismuth Rubidium Lithium Nickel Platinum Thalium Vanadium Stroncium Tin Titanium Zirconium) tests?
Also, if you don’t quite have 100mg of toenail, can you add clipping from other toes?

As an aside, I read somewhere that ridges and bends in you nails was a sign of a mineral issue (iron deficiency??). My toenails have obvious “striations” and some of the smaller nails are curved, it would be interesting to know if there is a relationship there.

 

[haidut]

I’m about ready to harvest some toenails! I usually keep them short so the length is starting to bother me!
A couple of questions: how critical is the last panel, the Additional/Miscellaneous (Germanium Barium Bismuth Rubidium Lithium Nickel Platinum Thalium Vanadium Stroncium Tin Titanium Zirconium) tests?
Also, if you don’t quite have 100mg of toenail, can you add clipping from other toes?

As an aside, I read somewhere that ridges and bends in you nails was a sign of a mineral issue (iron deficiency??). My toenails have obvious “striations” and some of the smaller nails are curved, it would be interesting to know if there is a relationship there.

They are not really elements that participate in metabolic functions. However, some of them (e.g. lithium) can be beneficial and it is probably good for lithium to be in range. There are multiple studies showing longevity correlates strongly with amount of lithium in ground waters at a specific locations. Some other elements are important to people who have undergone medical procedures involving radiation - strontium and barium are two such elements that are often high in people who have had such procedures. Furthermore, platinum is sometimes high in people who wear platinum containing jewelry and if that elements comes back high it may be worth doing something to limit the leeching of platinum into the body. Same with titanium, which is a common ingredient in dental implants, bone pins/plates/etc. Basically, one never really knows what may come back as elevated. Some of the people we tested so far discovered very high lead, aluminium, arsenic, rubidium, etc and that explained a lot of their weird symptoms that were baffling doctors. So, all in all, not as important as say the metabolic/nutritional ones, but still important to know since if there is an excess in some of the toxic members of the miscellaneous group that probably should be pointed out to a doctor and attempts made to address the overload of that element, or at least figure out what it is due to in case obvious causes such as medical radiation procedures (e.g. in the case with strontium/barium) have not happened.
Yes, if there is not enough nail from the big toes then other toes can be used but the results are most reliable with the big toe nail. Since a clipping from each toe is supposed to be sent, it should not be too difficult to get that amount when both toe clippings are taken into account. So far, for all people who have sent us a clipping from each toe, everybody exceeded 100mg when samples from both toes were harvested and sent. In my experience, not getting 100mg is only a risk when one of the toes has no nail or it has been destroyed by fungus and in that case clipping from the rest of the toes on that foot can be substituted.

 

[aguilaroja]

Thanks for clarifying this. Did you actually to a recorded interview with Dr. Peat or was it just back and forth over email? Either way, is there any way you can share the gist of the discussion or at least summarize his comments so I can put them in the main post?
Thanks in advance.

P.S. Btw, long time no hear/see on the forum Hope you are doing well.

The thoughts by Dr. Peat were conveyed by individual telephone conversations, rather than recordings. There are notes taken by me, and recollections, but not at length about the metabolic typing subject. As Dr. Peat is actively teaching through interviews and writing, it seems better he directly express his recent views.

There is no intent to be evasive here. It is simply better to have the primary source. In addition to directly helpful knowledge, Dr. Peat had direct encounters with many advocates for nutrition, so-called orthomolecular medicine, and non-orthodox (pun encountered, though not intended...) healthcare providers, who laid the basis for many trends still popular, or cycling through popularity. Many have been mentioned in newsletter, Adele Davis, Carlton Fredericks, Broda Barnes, many others (including a long list of researchers and biomedical scientists...).

One figure is Carl Pfeiffer, among the best known for mineral analysis (as clue to relieving ailments) in a previous generation.

Carl Pfeiffer (pharmacologist) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I recall Dr. Peat had concerns about some of Pfeiffer's conclusions, but again wish for Dr. Peat to represent himself. Thanks to Dr. Peat's longevity, he has historical perspective, in addition to a studied view. Hopefully, these emerge in more of the various broadcasts and writings.

P.S. Doing fine here. The good wishes are appreciated and reciprocated.

 

[tastyfood]

everybody exceeded 100mg when samples from both toes were harvested and sent

Is it 100mg per toe, or for both, that you need for the analysis?

 

[Philomath]

Is it 100mg per toe, or for both, that you need for the analysis?

I understood it to be 100-150mg of big toe nail - from one or both.

 

[haidut]

I understood it to be 100-150mg of big toe nail - from one or both.

Thanks.
Yes, total amount, no matter how it is collected, but it helps if there is some material from each toe as we have found the results fluctuate a bit across each foot so having a sample from each foot help to "average" them a bit. Still, 100mg from one big toe and no nail from the other is preferable than, say, just 50mg (total) "scraps" from both toes.
@tastyfood

 

[Alex Jaramillo]

Im excited for the steroid analysis to come out ?

 

[haidut]

Im excited for the steroid analysis to come out ?

Currently working on the method for extracting and testing them. Should have results in 1-2 weeks and I will make a separate thread about that, and also announce it in this one.

 

[Alex Jaramillo]

Currently working on the method for extracting and testing them. Should have results in 1-2 weeks and I will make a separate thread about that, and also announce it in this one.

Awesome! I’ll be growing out my toe nails in the mean time ?

 

[Philomath]

Currently working on the method for extracting and testing them. Should have results in 1-2 weeks and I will make a separate thread about that, and also announce it in this one.

So I have nail samples in a ziplock ready to go. I’d like to have the steroids tested as well - should I wait? Is there an issue with storing the nail samples indefinitely? Also, I’m assuming people buy the service on your site first, then mail in the samples. Do we need to attach the order or “receipt” in the envelope?
Thanks!

 

[Philomath]

@haidut
I cut my nail sample last week but I didn’t ship them because I thought my doctor was going to provide a test. Never happened.
Is there any isssue with testing nails that have not been recently cut from the toes? Btw, for future reference, can one 100mg sample be enough for mineral testing AND hormone testing, or would that require net-new sample?
Thanks!