Ray Peat Diet / Protocol Name?

[Philomath]

Neither.

think these ideas about nutrition are perfect and/or unworthy of continuous flow and adaptation;

Not sure if you mean the forum in general or just VOS's list. If you were referring to the latter, I said it was a good start. I also said we should search Dr. Peat's work and the web to verify and build a consensus on the various points. If no consensus can be drawn, maybe the idea/recommendation isn't valid.

think you will simply "try out" this thing in the same mindset you have tried out many diets in the past, an approach which we can infer has failed unless you have quit diets which were working well, and thus an approach we can rightfully say should terminate or at least steer clear from any affiliations with Ray Peat's person

I'm not sure what your getting at, however, my first impression is that you may have misinterpreted what I said.
Many of us have quit diets/lifestyles before, because they inherently don't work. I am here, reading and living Dr. Peat's work, against popular norms, because I believe it.
So when I say "bouncing it off the forum wall", I mean the process.

Here's an example of how the process can be somewhat inefficient at times: One day B6 is recommended and people run out and purchase it. A few days later, P5P is suggested as being better and people run out and get it. Even later, people provide studies showing P5P can be dangerous. After that, people point out that it's best to get it naturally. So people buy orange juice and eat liver. But wait, it's been pointed out that if you are deficient, you may have to mega-dose supplements initially because you cant get enough through natural means. Is this efficient? healthy? normal??

I'm in favor of trying, experimenting and learning but there has to be an easier way. This forum is a blessing because it contains so much informative and practical knowledge. But it's not the Matrix, and I can't plug my computer into my head and download the forum knowledge-base - wish I could. Using the computer example though, if the knowledge in the forum were code, I feel any type of "guideline" would be akin to a GUI - something to get you where you need to go in the simplest manner.

That being said, I'll continue experimenting even if we don't have an official "protocol". For now I'll continue to utilize the "dietary guideline" link on the front page.

BTW, my initial post was about creating a name for this protocol or guideline because it makes it easier to share the knowledge with people unacquainted with Dr. Peat's work.

 

[SAFarmer]

I guess the takeaway for me has been, if your metabolic rate is good, you can subsist on less protein.

But if you have metabolic issues, you may want to double or triple protein (and sugar in proportion).

I think the above is the key thing. It is known that after surgery, burns, shock and trauma, much higher calorie diets, which include higher protein is necessary for faster healing.

 

[Blossom]

I think one of the reasons the forum is so valuable is that we can discuss all of this but as far as a protocol goes it seems like each person is different so the way Peat's work is implemented will be based on one's unique situation. You can take any food or supplement and find a variety in levels of tolerance or benefit for example. Even Benedicte, who I think has synthesized Peat's work nicely, encourages people to have a Skype consultation as part of tailoring things to a person's unique context. Many here have done that very successfully on their own as well with valuable input from others. I'm not negating the thread at all(in fact I've enjoyed reading it) I just think Peat's work is difficult to simplify because of the numerous variables involved with each person's situation. To me it keeps coming back around to nutrition and metabolism and what works for each person which also changes with time.

 

[visionofstrength]

I think one of the reasons the forum is so valuable is that we can discuss all of this but as far as a protocol goes it seems like each person is different so the way Peat's work is implemented will be based on one's unique situation. You can take any food or supplement and find a variety in levels of tolerance or benefit for example. Even Benedicte, who I think has synthesized Peat's work nicely, encourages people to have a Skype consultation as part of tailoring things to a person's unique context. Many here have done that very successfully on their own as well with valuable input from others. I'm not negating the thread at all(in fact I've enjoyed reading it) I just think Peat's work is difficult to simplify because of the numerous variables involved with each person's situation. To me it keeps coming back around to nutrition and metabolism and what works for each person which also changes with time.

I haven't seen Benedicte's dosing but the table of contents seems to mirror the RDAs above, heading for heading, except for cascara (which I will add).

http://www.biochemnordic.com/contents-of-the-program

I would buy it but it seems expensive for an ebook ($129) and there are no refunds. Inefficient marketing strategy (in my view). How would I know if there's anything in the course that's not already summarized here?

If you have the book can you please check it for actual dosing, or for citations to Peat's work, and to see if it differs from the RDAs above?

 

[Amazoniac]

Philomath, if the nurses are concerned, you can tell them that you put your kids on a Raw Till 4 diet..

 

[Such_Saturation]

One day B6 is recommended and people run out and purchase it. A few days later, P5P is suggested as being better and people run out and get it. Even later, people provide studies showing P5P can be dangerous. After that, people point out that it's best to get it naturally. So people buy orange juice and eat liver. But wait, it's been pointed out that if you are deficient, you may have to mega-dose supplements initially because you cant get enough through natural means.

 

[aquaman]

Yes, these are all doses taken literally from his work or from email, though in some cases (small frequent doses), from email with me.

Interesting, can you post the quotes and source please?

 

[Philomath]

Philomath, if the nurses are concerned, you can tell them that you put your kids on a Raw Till 4 diet..

Thanks! I just gave both girls a 1/2 pint of homemade ice ceam in their lunch today. 1% milk, gelatin, no fat sweetened condensed milk, vanilla and three egg yolks. If they like it I'll be a hero! I may make that my lunch as well, and dinner too!

 

[Philomath]

I guess the takeaway for me has been, if your metabolic rate is good, you can subsist on less protein.

But if you have metabolic issues, you may want to double or triple protein (and sugar in proportion).

I think the above is the key thing. It is known that after surgery, burns, shock and trauma, much higher calorie diets, which include higher protein is necessary for faster healing.

I'm going to post this again in another thread but it applies nicely to what you said:

The Journal of Nutrition
Supplement: Efficacy and Safety of Protein Supplement Use by Military and Other Physically Active Populations
Increased Protein Intake in Military Special Operations1

Abstract
Special operations are so designated for the specialized military missions they address. As a result, special operations present some unique metabolic challenges. In particular, soldiers often operate in a negative energy balance in stressful and demanding conditions with little opportunity for rest or recovery. In this framework, findings inferred from the performance literature suggest that increased protein intake may be beneficial. In particular, increased protein intake during negative caloric balance maintains lean body mass and blood glucose production. The addition of protein to mixed macronutrient supplements is beneficial for muscle endurance and power endpoints, and the use of amino acids improves gross and fine motor skills. Increasing protein intake during periods of intense training and/or metabolic demand improves subsequent performance, improves muscular recovery, and reduces symptoms of psychological stress. Consumption of protein before sleep confers the anabolic responses required for the maintenance of lean mass and muscle recovery. A maximal response in muscle protein synthesis is achieved with the consumption of 20–25 g of protein alone. However, higher protein intakes in the context of mixed-nutrient ingestion also confer anabolic benefits by reducing protein breakdown. Restricted rations issued to special operators provide less than the RDA for protein (;0.6 g/kg), and these soldiers often rely on commercial products to augment their rations. The provision of reasonable alternatives and/or certification of approved supplements by the U.S. Department of Defense would be prudent. J. Nutr. 143: 1852S–1856S, 2013.

 

[visionofstrength]

Yes, these are all doses taken literally from his work or from email, though in some cases (small frequent doses), from email with me.

Interesting, can you post the quotes and source please?

Yes, I hope to do that in version 2. First, I'm asking for comments, critiques, additions, so it can be edited all at once.

If you think I'm wrong about anything being taken literally from Peat, or have your own citation or view you'd like included, please let me know? I am far from the smartest one on this forum!

 

[Philomath]

There seems to be a crazy amount of research from the early 1900's that people don't know about or they think comes from some kind of magical steampunk poopoo land and it's automatically wrong.

Now that's funny! Can I use that in my signature?

 

[Such_Saturation]

There seems to be a crazy amount of research from the early 1900's that people don't know about or they think comes from some kind of magical steampunk poopoo land and it's automatically wrong.

Now that's funny! Can I use that in my signature?

Yes, right below your current one! LOL

 

[narouz]

VOS,
I knew you might catch some flak for even trying to make a "protocol", I'm sure you knew that as well.

I hope I didn't come across as giving VoS "flak."
It's an interesting list/protocol.
It's just a different kind of project than what I have in mind.

If we can all agree that the items on VOS's list are important steps to becoming "Peat healthy"..."

Honestly, not trying to be a d**k,
but...I can't really agree about that.
Rather, they would seem to me to be more in the nature of
"mostly supplements and some foods inspired
putatively (sorry, but...I'm really not sure in some cases :) ) by Peat
which you might want to eat if a food-based, faithfully Peat-derived diet
isn't working for you
or if you're impatient
or like experimenting beyond what Peat generally recommends
or if you want to get ripped."

Or something like that.
And I'm not saying that like it's a bad thing....

 

[visionofstrength]

narouz, do you subscribe to Peat's newsletters? I think it's in the newsletters, especially the most recent four, that Peat makes the case for improving the NAD+/NADH and GSH/GSSG ratios, with what you might call "supplements".

But aren't all of what you might call Peat's "supplements" really just extracts of food -- other than charcoal! Like oil or sugar, or instant coffee, where do you draw the line between foods and supplements? Is mineral water a food or a supplement?

I sense that you have some passion for this topic. I'd love to know more when you have time!

 

[Blossom]

I think one of the reasons the forum is so valuable is that we can discuss all of this but as far as a protocol goes it seems like each person is different so the way Peat's work is implemented will be based on one's unique situation. You can take any food or supplement and find a variety in levels of tolerance or benefit for example. Even Benedicte, who I think has synthesized Peat's work nicely, encourages people to have a Skype consultation as part of tailoring things to a person's unique context. Many here have done that very successfully on their own as well with valuable input from others. I'm not negating the thread at all(in fact I've enjoyed reading it) I just think Peat's work is difficult to simplify because of the numerous variables involved with each person's situation. To me it keeps coming back around to nutrition and metabolism and what works for each person which also changes with time.

I haven't seen Benedicte's dosing but the table of contents seems to mirror the RDAs above, heading for heading, except for cascara (which I will add).

http://www.biochemnordic.com/contents-of-the-program

I would buy it but it seems expensive for an ebook ($129) and there are no refunds. Inefficient marketing strategy (in my view). How would I know if there's anything in the course that's not already summarized here?

If you have the book can you please check it for actual dosing, or for citations to Peat's work, and to see if it differs from the RDAs above?

She does recommend some ranges for various supplements and encourages getting vitamins/minerals from food ideally. She doesn't use citations in her program but she would probably be willing to provide sources upon request although I can't speak for her directly. I don't think her intention is to charge a fortune for her program and comparatively it seems more reasonably priced than some others. It isn't in my interest to get into what others charge for their products and services anyway. I know she does seem to genuinely want to help others after restoring her own health and spending 10 years of her life studying Peat. He does recommend her (or did when I last checked) for nutritional counseling. I didn't mean to turn the topic into a discussion of Benedicte's program and only mentioned it because philomath had brought it up and I think it can be valuable for beginners and people who don't have the health, time or mental focus to try to piece things together on their own initially.

 

[visionofstrength]

...I think it can be valuable for beginners and people who don't have the health, time or mental focus to try to piece things together on their own initially.

Yes, I completely agree. I think that's why there's some energy in the forum for developing the RDAs here. This one is public domain, after all!

 

[sm1693]

What a great topic. This is something I have thought about for weeks now. As my own health has increased to excellent levels, I have gotten the desire to improve the lives of those I love.

But how do I help them? Tell them "read Peat's articles"? They can't understand and will give up.

Should they get on this forum? I love this forum (it's the only forum I have ever been a part of in 17 years on the internet), but this forum is a scary towering inferno of information. Even the way people speak and interact is different here. How do they make sense of the confusion?

I think the idea of having a Ray Peat Forum Intro To Ray's Dietary Principles is awesome, but it is off to a verrry poor start... Just a listing of foods and supplements? Wth? Where is the creativity that this way of eating is supposed to bring out in our minds? The picture of the "Ray Peat Foods" you can find on Google led me astray for weeks when I was first getting into this stuff; there MUST be explanations next to each food, such as: ORANGES, excellent source of sugar, etc... However, they have pectin, etc... Pectin can be a problem because...

What would you tell your mother to start her in this way of eating? You probably wouldn't just hand her a list of foods.

Mine would go something like this,

Page 1: start opening your mind to new possibilities because life's about to get a lot more fun. The goals here are...

Page 2: start consuming milk, start with 1 tsp if you have not been drinking milk recently as you need to buildup lactase enzymes...

Page 3: start consuming gelatin broth. The favored way to make it is...

Page 5: start consuming coconut oil. A good way to introduce it is...

Page 8: increase your sugar intake through one or all of the following: fruits, fruit juice, and/or sucrose table sugar. You may not be able to tolerate xxx fruit because...

Page 43: if your stress hormones have not quieted down by application of all previous food methods, you may want to try vitamin B3 in the form of niacinamide. One method is to start at xxx mg low dose and only use what is necessary to fix the problem as it occurs. The goal is to...

Page 97: something about activated charcoal as a possible remedy...


Perhaps this is a weak idea too. Please critique it. It's great to be amongst so many anti-authoritarians who question everything and won't accept ANY poor idea.

 

[Philomath]

VOS,
I knew you might catch some flak for even trying to make a "protocol", I'm sure you knew that as well.

I hope I didn't come across as giving VoS "flak."
It's an interesting list/protocol.
It's just a different kind of project than what I have in mind.

If we can all agree that the items on VOS's list are important steps to becoming "Peat healthy"..."

Honestly, not trying to be a d**k,
but...I can't really agree about that.
Rather, they would seem to me to be more in the nature of
"mostly supplements and some foods inspired
putatively (sorry, but...I'm really not sure in some cases :) ) by Peat
which you might want to eat if a food-based, faithfully Peat-derived diet
isn't working for you
or if you're impatient
or like experimenting beyond what Peat generally recommends
or if you want to get ripped."

Or something like that.
And I'm not saying that like it's a bad thing....

My main goal right now is to get my temperatures up to 98.6 on a consistent basis. I can get my pulse up but my temps are not following suit. So one of the following isn't happening:

1. I'm not eating the proper foods or the foods I have access to aren't of good quality
2. I'm not getting enough red light or CO2 (are these technically supplements??)
3. I'm not supplementing with the correct hormones/vitamins/uncouplers/emodins etc.
4. I have not waited long enough for the PUFA's to cycle through

I may be wrong but I don't think anyone on this forum has attained health like Dr. Peat by just changing their diet alone. Either it can't happen without supplements, or no one has been PUFA free for over four years yet.

Not even the infamous Mr. Brown can help us. He improved his health over the 6(?) month test but we don't know if he "uncoupled". Per the study Haidut provided, maybe it is possible to "uncouple" after a month if you are absolutely PUFA free. Maybe that's why Mr. Brown lost weight, stopped getting migraines and could work longer without fatiguing.

I have a feeling it is possible to reach Peat health via diet alone... if you live on a remote jungle mountain top surrounded by goats, chickens, honey bees, orange groves and coffee plants. But not where I live, surrounded by fluoridation, radiation, pollution, estrogen, carageenan and stress!

I think supplements are going to be just as important as diet to reaching the Peat Pinnacle of Health. VOS has taken what seems like every one of Dr. Peat's supplement recommendations and put them together. I will be even more impressed if he can verify everything on that list. VOS, let me know if you need assistance.

 

[Philomath]

What a great topic. This is something I have thought about for weeks now. As my own health has increased to excellent levels, I have gotten the desire to improve the lives of those I love.

But how do I help them? Tell them "read Peat's articles"? They can't understand and will give up.

Should they get on this forum? I love this forum (it's the only forum I have ever been a part of in 17 years on the internet), but this forum is a scary towering inferno of information. Even the way people speak and interact is different here. How do they make sense of the confusion?

I think the idea of having a Ray Peat Forum Intro To Ray's Dietary Principles is awesome, but it is off to a verrry poor start... Just a listing of foods and supplements? Wth? Where is the creativity that this way of eating is supposed to bring out in our minds? The picture of the "Ray Peat Foods" you can find on Google led me astray for weeks when I was first getting into this stuff; there MUST be explanations next to each food, such as: ORANGES, excellent source of sugar, etc... However, they have pectin, etc... Pectin can be a problem because...

What would you tell your mother to start her in this way of eating? You probably wouldn't just hand her a list of foods.

Mine would go something like this,

Page 1: start opening your mind to new possibilities because life's about to get a lot more fun. The goals here are...

Page 2: start consuming milk, start with 1 tsp if you have not been drinking milk recently as you need to buildup lactase enzymes...

Page 3: start consuming gelatin broth. The favored way to make it is...

Page 5: start consuming coconut oil. A good way to introduce it is...

Page 8: increase your sugar intake through one or all of the following: fruits, fruit juice, and/or sucrose table sugar. You may not be able to tolerate xxx fruit because...

Page 43: if your stress hormones have not quieted down by application of all previous food methods, you may want to try vitamin B3 in the form of niacinamide. One method is to start at xxx mg low dose and only use what is necessary to fix the problem as it occurs. The goal is to...

Page 97: something about activated charcoal as a possible remedy...


Perhaps this is a weak idea too. Please critique it. It's great to be amongst so many anti-authoritarians who question everything and won't accept ANY poor idea.

 

[visionofstrength]

My main goal right now is to get my temperatures up to 98.6 on a consistent basis. I can get my pulse up but my temps are not following suit. So one of the following isn't happening:

1. I'm not eating the proper foods or the foods I have access to aren't of good quality
2. I'm not getting enough red light or CO2 (are these technically supplements??)
3. I'm not supplementing with the correct hormones/vitamins/uncouplers/emodins etc.
4. I have not waited long enough for the PUFA's to cycle through

I may be wrong but I don't think anyone on this forum has attained health like Dr. Peat by just changing their diet alone. Either it can't happen without supplements, or no one has been PUFA free for over four years yet.

Not even the infamous Mr. Brown can help us. He improved his health over the 6(?) month test but we don't know if he "uncoupled". Per the study Haidut provided, maybe it is possible to "uncouple" after a month if you are absolutely PUFA free. Maybe that's why Mr. Brown lost weight, stopped getting migraines and could work longer without fatiguing.

I have a feeling it is possible to reach Peat health via diet alone... if you live on a remote jungle mountain top surrounded by goats, chickens, honey bees, orange groves and coffee plants. But not where I live, surrounded by fluoridation, radiation, pollution, estrogen, carageenan and stress!

I think supplements are going to be just as important as diet to reaching the Peat Pinnacle of Health. VOS has taken what seems like every one of Dr. Peat's supplement recommendations and put them together. I will be even more impressed if he can verify everything on that list. VOS, let me know if you need assistance.

Oh wow, yes, please! For verifying the dosages, I use the toxinless.com Peat search, and I put the supplement and the suggested dosage. A few of the members have been kind enough to give me corrections and additions that I want to incorporate.

I'm hoping if you see anything, or think we should add some, you will please let me know?

re: your body temps ... How many of the RDAs above do you try to do? I'd like to take a poll to see how many here try to do these. I've had to simplify a lot, as I think Peat does, to fit them all in conveniently.