Shrimp's Peat Log- Thyroid, Anxiety And Acne Issues, Oh My!

[Shrimp]

Hi Shrimp
I think this is a sensible thing to try, especially if your t4 levels are below mid-range. I've recently decided to try this myself. My doctor originally started me on NDT a few years ago, which felt good at first, but eventually still felt very hypo in spite of good temps and pulse. Lab work looked pretty good too, but fatigue and brain fog were just awful. This past summer, I stopped my thyroid meds for about 6 weeks and got baseline labs. My t4 was below the reference range so my thyroid isn't putting out enough on its own. I think the NDT was masking this. I was getting just enough t4 to bring my labs within range, but not enough to remedy all my hypo symptoms. But I couldn't raise my dose because it would give me too much t3 and too low TSH. Like you, I've tried different combinations (and brands) of NDT and t3, even Cynoplus. But I had never tried t4 alone. Or a higher ratio of t4 to t3 than the 4:1.

So, I'm currently experimenting with more t4. Unfortunately, it's slow going working with t4 because I started at ground zero and I'm waiting a couple of weeks for each dosage change to settle. But since you are already taking thyroid, you could easily swap out straight t4 for the equivalent in the NDT and then take whatever amount of t3 (if any) feels good. Maybe tapering down on the t3 as you taper up on the t4. I've been doing some reading on t4 and doctors use lean body mass as a rough guideline for dosing, along with checking labs to make sure t4 levels aren't getting too high and that it's converting well to t3. I plan to get labs every six weeks or so for a while as I continue to monitor temps and pulse and other symptoms.

It will be a few months still before I know if this is going to work out for me, but so far it hasn't been any worse than what I was doing before. And my brain fog is much improved with higher t4.

I just wanted to let you know that you're not the only one who's considered trying something like this. Good luck to you!

Hi sweetpeat!

I'm still waiting for my NP to mail me my thyroid labs, but I wouldn't be surprised if my T4 was midrange or lower, as it seems to be around that spot in most of the thyroid labs I've had done on various doses. You sound like you're in the same boat I am, great temps and pulse with continuing symptoms. With baseline labs like yours low in T4 I can see why T4 would be a very reasonable thing to try, and it is nice to know I'm not the only one to want to try this since people seem to demonize T4 on a lot of thyroid forums. My baseline labs (taken 3 years ago, ~3 weeks off meds) show both T4 and T3 around mid range http://inkypixels.co.uk/TD-Calculators/ ... late=Chart So my T4 levels definitely have room for improvement. I would think that adding 25-50mcg of Synthroid to my current dose of 2 grains NDT would be ok. I have an appointment with my NP in a few weeks and will try to coax her into giving me a Synthroid prescription then.

Have you seen the website http://www.tiredthyroid.com/ ? The author had similar troubles with getting her medication right and ended up needing additional T4 and a small dose of NDT to feel normal again. Lot of good info there.

Glad to hear the T4 is helping with your brain fog; that's such an annoying symptom. I'd love to hear how the T4 works for you a few months out! Good luck to you, as well!

---

Small notes, one week on new dose of meds (2 grains vs 2.5 grains):
-temps/pulse still good (98.4-99.0, 80-90bpm)
-feel way more sluggish/cold (especially hands/feet/nose)
-more disoriented?
-less anxious
-muscle spasms in abdomen stopped
-legs feel somewhat better

That would be only a small drop in the amount of T3 I'm taking (~4.5mcg in 1/2 grain NDT IIRC) but the decrease does seem to be helping some of my symptoms.

 

[Shrimp]

So I finally got my labs in the mail:

Free T3: 3.96 (2.3-4.2)
Free T4: 1.2 (0.71-1.42)
TSH <0.01

Magnesium RBC: 4.0 (3.3-5.5) I am taking ~360mg mag glycinate and occasional epsom baths and can't get this number to budge.

Vitamin D, 25-Hydroxy: 42.7 (30-100 optimal) I haven't taken any D3 for maybe two months now.

Zinc: 100 (56-134)

Copper, Serum: 102 (72-166)
Ceruloplasmin: 24.0 (16.0-45.0)

This was > 12 hours after taking my last dose of meds, so I am assuming my T3 levels are much higher throughout the day as I split my meds evenly into 4 doses (8am, 12pm, 4pm, bedtime). I was on 2.5grains Thiroyd.

My symptoms seem to be pretty much the same since I last posted, still very tired/breathless, disoriented and cold and also am breaking out worse in acne. My doctor is going to prescribe me the 25mcg of T4 to try, so we'll see how that affects me in a few weeks. I still have that Stop the Thyroid Madness "NDT or bust" mantra lurking in the back of my head, but I need to pay more attention to my own symptoms, I think. It is interesting reading people's negative experiences with Synthroid; a lot of them sound identical to what I have experienced on NDT...

 

[Shrimp]

Turns out doc is not ok with giving me T4, and wants to put me on 5mg Cortef morn and afternoon instead. She thinks that my symptoms may be from something other than thyroid, like lyme or adrenals (ugh). Ordering T4 from Mexico..

 

[Shrimp]

Seems like the reduced dose of thyroid has caught up to me in a bad way. My disorientation is worsening, I feel very weepy/depressed, stomach/guts feel weird and that god awful lightheaded feeling is bothering me again. Also my speech feels weak and I am mixing words up/slurring some which is super odd. Feel like I'm going nuts. Thinking of trying 10mg pregnenolone. Something significant has to shift here. Also my temps/pulse are still fine, 98.2-99.0 and 80-90 bpm.

 

[HDD]

post 119337 Seems like the reduced dose of thyroid has caught up to me in a bad way. My disorientation is worsening, I feel very weepy/depressed, stomach/guts feel weird and that god awful lightheaded feeling is bothering me again. Also my speech feels weak and I am mixing words up/slurring some which is super odd. Feel like I'm going nuts. Thinking of trying 10mg pregnenolone. Something significant has to shift here. Also my temps/pulse are still fine, 98.2-99.0 and 80-90 bpm.

Hi Shrimp,
Reading your symptoms reminded me of hypoglycemia. Low blood sugar symptoms in my family members have been quite varied and extreme as the triggers that caused the hypoglycemia have been. It is not something that is diagnosed by normal Dr. visits/testing and it is common in those with low thyroid function. I believe some of my son's panic attacks (possibly all) were first brought on by low blood sugar and the subsequent stress hormones. I do not know if this something that is contributing to your symptoms but here is a list of symptoms (might not be complete list):
Shaking
Trembling
Sweating
Excessive hunger
Pallor
Irritability
Rapid heart beat
Palpitations
Headache
Fuzzy thinking
Dizziness
Light-headedness
Confusion
Drowsiness
Aggression
Slurred speech
Blurred vision
Visual halo
Feeling cold
Prickly skin
Seizures
Loss of consciousness

This is a list of some things I have seen or read can cause low blood sugar:

Protein without enough carbs
Protein powder
Eggs
Cocoa
Alcohol
Antibiotics
Midol, ibuprofen, excedrin
Coffee
Supplements

I recently concluded that if I wake up in the morning with a headache, depressed, or allergic that it is due to low blood sugar. Pregnenolone at bedtime triggered a migraine a few timesin the morning and cyproheptadine at bedtime triggered depression in the morning ..also a few times before I made the connection. I think that in these instances my liver glycogen was depleted and brought the subsequent symptoms. I have taken both supplements without these side effects.

I apologize for my long post but thought this might be helpful.

 

[Shrimp]

post 119487
I apologize for my long post but thought this might be helpful.

Hi HDD!

I'm sure I do have episodes of low blood sugar, as I tend to get "hangry." I notice my hands, feet and nose go cold if I haven't eaten in a while, though food doesn't reliably warm them, either. Also my mom's side of the family is full of type 2 diabetics, and she herself is very prone to hypoglycemia. However, these symptoms seem to be constant, while from my understanding of hypoglycemia they should get better after eating. It's like eating doesn't effect them at all. :/ For instance, I ate a big meal of beef chili, white rice and cheese before I went food shopping last night but was very disoriented and weak just walking around the store. OJ or plain sugar don't seem to help, either. It's the oddest thing.

Anyway, thank you for the helpful post! Those symptoms really do sound a lot like mine, but I can't seem to get food to help them. I'll look into balancing blood sugar a bit more today; I think I need to figure out better snacks to munch on throughout the day.
--

Took cat's claw last night (doc recommended) 250mg in water, woke up at 4am with stomach/abdominal discomfort. Was able to get back to sleep around 5. Will keep trying it for a few days to see if my stomach settles.

 

[Shrimp]

Stopped the cat's claw; it was really doing a number on my stomach even on a very low dose. Subbed it out for caprylic acid which supposedly has antibacterial and anti-fungal effects. I could just eat coconut oil but I find it hard to find foods to hide it in and it is absolutely disgusting on its own.

Added about 5mg sublingual pregnenolone a few weeks ago, taken in the morning. I notice an almost immediate effect which doesn't feel great honestly, like a stress response or something. It's a mild feeling of constriction in my chest/neck area, like I tense up a bit. Also I've had to shampoo my hair every day vs every other day because it gets greasy and stringy quicker now. Could that really be from such a low dose of pregnenlone? I HAVE felt a bit better overall, got out and did some more things than usual but I'm not sure if that is the pregnenolone or what. I might stop taking it.

Also, I've had my bamboo flooring in for a good two weeks now with no improvement to my sinuses (floor looks amazing, though!). I have a HEPA filter, too. I think my constant stuffed up mess may be from dairy, but I'm struggling to find what to substitute if I cut it so I can get enough calories. Right now I eat about 1oz cheese, one yogurt and a cup of ice cream a day, so not a ton of dairy, but my sinuses are so annoying I feel like I need to figure out what is going on.

On another note, my heat tolerance is absolute garbage. When work gets 75 degrees or over I become so crabby and uncomfortable. Temps have been steady 98.6-99.0 in the second half of my cycle, pulse hovering around 90. Still very tired, sore, tight muscles, back/knee/calf pain, disoriented, short of breath. Anxiety is somehow better; I haven't had to take an Ativan (aside from during blood draw to prevent vasovagal response) in at least a month now.

Current supps are 2.25gr Thiroyd, ~30mg Progest-E days 14-30 of cycle, 200mg L-theanine, 15kIU vit A every few days, 360mg mag glycinate, and 600mg caprylic acid. Looking to cut the Vit A when I can finally figure out how to make liver palatable...

 

[tara]

However, these symptoms seem to be constant, while from my understanding of hypoglycemia they should get better after eating. It's like eating doesn't effect them at all.

I think low blood sugar and resulting stress hormones have caused some of my trouble over the years.
I have had a serious campaign to avoid it the last two years, and I think it makes a difference to s=many things (though not solved my key issue). I've tried before, but always had slip ups every few days at least when II was under-planned, under-provisioned, or caught by unscheduled events. This last while, I've erred on the side of over-eating to avoid it. (I don't think the over-eating itself is great - it has it's own problems.) The thing is, by the time I've noticed the symptoms, the train is on it's way, and just eating then is too late - I can't reverse it. I have to avoid getting the stress hit in the first place.

 

[Shrimp]

I think low blood sugar and resulting stress hormones have caused some of my trouble over the years.
I have had a serious campaign to avoid it the last two years, and I think it makes a difference to s=many things (though not solved my key issue). I've tried before, but always had slip ups every few days at least when II was under-planned, under-provisioned, or caught by unscheduled events. This last while, I've erred on the side of over-eating to avoid it. (I don't think the over-eating itself is great - it has it's own problems.) The thing is, by the time I've noticed the symptoms, the train is on it's way, and just eating then is too late - I can't reverse it. I have to avoid getting the stress hit in the first place.

Hi tara,
I agree that blood sugar stability is important, but there is the chicken-egg problem; are thyroid problems causing the instability? Also I work part-time but when I do work I don't usually have time for snacks as I am busy helping customers. I'd like to buy a meter and test my levels to see what's really going on but I have a vasovagal response from seeing blood and honestly don't think I could handle it haha. Maybe I'll try to make some gelatin snack I can slurp down at work..

---
I felt surprisingly well in the few days before my period this month, perhaps because I was consistent with getting ~30mg of Progest-E in days 14-28 this month. I was even able to go to a crowded mall on a Saturday night, which would have been impossible for me just a few weeks ago due to anxiety and disorientation. I still felt unwell at the mall but was able to focus on browsing and didn't have a panic attack, though I came close to one at the Disney Store due to the throngs of loud children and the fact that someone cranked the heat up.

Heat really seems to exacerbate my symptoms. I get so irritable and disoriented when I feel hot. I also feel hot when it isn't really "hot"! 75+ degrees inside and I start feeling it. I feel most comfortable around 72 deg, and only start feeling cold when it drops to like 66 inside. Starches still make me feel hot in an uncomfortable way. The heat intolerance coupled with breathlessness/anxiety really points to hyperthyroid, but I know I am not hyper as my temps and pulse are fine. I really have no idea what could be causing this. I just ate lunch and my core is sweating while my feet and calves are icy.

I really need to start my dairy-free experiment but I'm still stuck on what to replace the calories with. I'd need like 500 cals of something to replace the calories i get from dairy daily...I really don't want to eat more meat or potatoes. :/

 

[tara]

I really need to start my dairy-free experiment but I'm still stuck on what to replace the calories with. I'd need like 500 cals of something to replace the calories i get from dairy daily...I really don't want to eat more meat or potatoes. :/

Jelly? Gelatine + sucrose + fruit juice/stewed fruit + maybe extra fruit?

 

[tara]

The heat intolerance coupled with breathlessness/anxiety really points to hyperthyroid, but I know I am not hyper as my temps and pulse are fine.

Heat intolerance can go with low metabolism too. As can breathlessness. Breathlessness often arises from hyperventilation. Panic attacks often (always?) involve hyperventilation.

 

[Shrimp]

Jelly? Gelatine + sucrose + fruit juice/stewed fruit + maybe extra fruit?

I made some gelatin snacks for work but they weren't sweet enough. I'll change the recipe a bit and see how that goes. :)

Heat intolerance can go with low metabolism too. As can breathlessness. Breathlessness often arises from hyperventilation. Panic attacks often (always?) involve hyperventilation.

I don't think I have a low metabolism right now, though, as my temps and pulse seem pretty good (98.0-98.8, 80-90bpm), and my thyroid labs are excellent. I think something else is making me feel ill, be it digestion issues, undereating due to digestive issues, or an infection of some sort.

--

I felt pretty decent for most of the weekend. Was able to go to bf's apartment with no anxiety getting there (highway travel typically makes me feel anxious), and went out to eat/shopping. Did have bursts of anxiety, though that may have been to the bitter cold and the breathlessness it caused. Was disoriented and achy at work again yesterday; feel like I am returning to my baseline crappy feeling. Not sure what had caused my initial improvement or return to symptoms. Thought the preg or caprylic acid might be helping.

Also tried Cetaphil DailyAdvance moisturizer for my dry face but just two uses broke me out in deep acne around my chin so I stopped. Back to doing absolutely nothing topical for my skin except Neosporin on occasional cysts.

Tried Now brand enteric coated oregano oil cap before bed last night; woke up several hours later with a very sore abdomen and gas. Might try a different brand, but seems my body doesn't really like most of the herbal antibiotics/antifungals since cat's claw wrecked my gut in a similar fashion. Caprylic acid still seems ok.

Vitamin D3/K2 combo makes me completely exhausted. I wanted to take some to help my teeth but when I took 4,000IU this morning I was absolutely wiped out for most of the day.

Muscles have felt weak again lately, esp. upper arms right above elbows. I noticed at work I was having some trouble reaching for and carrying things. I'm also having some weird trouble either hearing and/or registering what people say sometimes. I haven't done anything that could damage my hearing in the past few weeks, so I'm wondering if it is more of a difficulty focusing on what people are saying than anything. I noticed when I felt better, my senses felt clearer, and when I start feeling ill again it's like a fog sets in on everything, sight, sound, cognition etc.

Still waiting on the Igenex lyme testing I mailed out like a month ago...

 

[tara]

I made some gelatin snacks for work but they weren't sweet enough. I'll change the recipe a bit and see how that goes. :)

I usually calculate about 1 : 1 ratio of sugar : protein. Tastes OK to me, but you might want more or less.

 

[Shrimp]

I usually calculate about 1 : 1 ratio of sugar : protein. Tastes OK to me, but you might want more or less.

I'm still shaky about adding any white sugar to things right now since I am getting cavities at an alarming rate despite great dental hygiene, but I will keep that in mind, thanks! I think it will be ok if I don't add water to the juice like the recipe I used called for.

--
Finally got Igenex lyme results:

Still waiting on dr appt. to see what she has to say about these results. I've tested positive on band 58 on the regular WB, as well. From what I've read, lyme doctors tend to see IND bands as positive as they read them like a pregnancy test where you can't just be a little bit positive. I'm skeptical that IND bands mean anything. However, band 41 indicates the presence of spirochetes of some kind, so regardless of whether it is lyme, it appears I have some sort of bacterial infection. I keep reading that lyme is a clinical diagnosis, as well. Given that band 41 was both IgG and IgM positive across two tests it seems to me that antibiotics might be worth a shot to see if they help my symptoms at all.

I also finally received my Thyronorm T4 supplement I ordered. I am going to be replacing 1/4 grain of NDT with 1/4 of a 75 mcg pill, so my dose will go from 2.25 grains NDT (approx. 85mcg T4/20mcg T3 or 4:1 ratio) to 94mcg T4/18mcg T3 (approx. 5:1 ratio). I will carefully monitor my temps, pulse and symptoms to see how this effects me. If things move in the right direction in two weeks, I will try subbing out more NDT for T4. I am doing this because based on my labs with Free T3 at top of range and Free T4 mid-range 12 hours after medication, I feel that my Free T3 levels may be too high when I am taking medication throughout the day.

Additionally, going to try adding in D3/K2 combo again to try to help my teeth, as I am getting gumline cavities again due to gum recession around two molars. I really don't understand what is causing the problems as I don't drink soda and drink like one glass of OJ a day with a straw. I rinse my mouth after eating, brush 2x/day and floss once at night. I use a waterpik too! Guessing it has to do with hormones and fat soluble vitamin status. Will be taking 1000IU D3/200mcg K2 at night because it makes me sleepy during the day for some reason.

 

[Shrimp]

Been a few days since I switched up thyroid med; temps and pulse stable so far. Feel maybe a bit more foggy. Keep getting weird shaky episodes when I play video games online with friends at like 8-9pm; definitely some weird adrenaline thing because my hands and feet go cold. I don't feel anxious, though, just that spaced-out derealization feeling. Happened last night about an hour after I ate dinner so don't think it is a blood sugar thing. I notice it when talking to people too sometimes at work etc..

Started taking Super K for teeth. Every time I get blood drawn the phlebotomist remarks that it takes a while for me to stop bleeding after she removes the needle (fun stuff when you have a vasovagal response to blood/needles!), so coupled with my teeth issues I'm thinking I may need more Vit. K. Either that or phlebotomist is actually a butcher...

 

[charlie]

Either that or phlebotomist is actually a butcher...

 

[Shrimp]

She's a very nice woman, really, but doesn't exactly have a delicate touch.

--

The Super K seems to be doing good things for my teeth. No progress on the cavities but it has only been a few days. But my plaque has decreased significantly! However, my gums/teeth/jaw have felt weird, like tingly/throbbing at times. Not painful or anything, just...odd. Not sure what to make of it but figured it was worth noting. I also tested my saliva ph a few times and it seems to be slightly acidic, around 6.0-6.5. I get bad breath from post nasal drip and also some reflux, which come to think of it might actually be causing the post nasal drip problem. Gotta work on the reflux somehow. Been making sure to get some gelatin and hydrolzyed collagen.

 

[Blossom]

Have you seen this thread Shrimp?
Wider face after using vitamin k? | Ray Peat Forum

 

[Shrimp]

Have you seen this thread Shrimp?
Wider face after using vitamin k? | Ray Peat Forum

Hi Blossom!

That thread is interesting; thanks for the link! I didn't see anyone describing anything like the weird feelings I'm having, but I did think that maybe it could be a sign that things are shifting a bit in my mouth somehow. I'll be sure to post pics if I end up with a jaw like Xena: Warrior Princess in a few months.

 

[Blossom]

However, my gums/teeth/jaw have felt weird, like tingly/throbbing at times

Oh I thought maybe this could be your jaw getting stronger or something. Yes please do post pics if your face changes. I was able to stop wearing the retainer I'd worn for 10 years after taking vitamin k.