Vitamin A and T3 for testosterone - dosage

[charlie]

Yes, but vegans, ketos, fasters, carnivores, peaters, etc. all feel great at first until they don't.

And then they are on to the next fad diet that "works".

Grant Genereux has been on the diet almost 10 years and is about 70 years old....


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQmS5eyVT0w&feature=emb_title

 

[Peatress]

And there are MANY MANY MANY ex Petarians in the low vitamin A and low toxin groups digging themselves out of the hell that was inflicted on the by the Ray Peat dietary recommendations. And that's a fact!

You started the forum and called it the raypeatforum. Thank you for facilitating an environment for debate of all things Ray Peat and more. In light of your change of mind regarding Dr Peat’s dietary guidelines, it might be helpful if you could make an official statement to the forum to outline the future of the forum.

 

[charlie]

You started the forum and called it the raypeatforum. Thank you for facilitating an environment for debate of all things Ray Peat and more. In light of your change of mind regarding Dr Peat’s dietary guidelines, it might be helpful if you could make an official statement to the forum to outline the future of the forum.

The official statement is at the top of the forum, "Perceive, Think, Act". This is not a cult, if we get better information we will act on it. You cannot expect a man to be perfect, it is OK that Ray Peat was wrong about "vitamin A" and I am glad we are figuring it out so that our people can thrive and not be poisoned by this insidious so called vitamin.

 

[tallglass13]

You started the forum and called it the raypeatforum. Thank you for facilitating an environment for debate of all things Ray Peat and more. In light of your change of mind regarding Dr Peat’s dietary guidelines, it might be helpful if you could make an official statement to the forum to outline the future of the forum.

Why would he need to do that? That would be completely against Ray's philosophy. Even Ray was experimenting with Oats, Oat bran, vegetables, until the end.
Additionally, Like I said before, I still Love Ray. He taught me how to think "better". I still use Ray's rec's, however instead of OJ, I have grape juice or coconut water. Instead of milk , I just eat more Beef or chicken. Instead of Carrot salad, I have beans or activated charcoal.

 

[charlie]

He taught me how to think "better".

Exactly.

 

[Ras]

Every person about whom I've read that reports benefits from lowering their vitamin A, has done so by eating what they consider to be a low vitamin A diet. Therefore, because they changed more than their intake of vitamin A, it could be foolish to attribute their improvements only to the lowered intake of vitamin A. And for many of them, the majority of what they considered their vitamin A intake was in the form of carotenoids, which are not vitamin A. If you eat fewer vegetables, or less liver, you're consuming less of a lot of things.

Maybe vitamin A becomes an issue only when other deficiencies retard its metabolism or functions, similar to other nutrients. Riboflavin deficiency is common, and its adequacy is necessary for proper vitamin A metabolism. It seems odd to presume that the person reporting success from lowering their vitamin A was entirely healthy in every other way and replete in every other nutrient before consuming what they consider to be high amounts of vitamin A.

 

[ThinPicking]

Maybe vitamin A becomes an issue only when other deficiencies retard its metabolism or functions, similar to other nutrients.

Probably that in my opinion at least. It would seem strange to me that a substance that has precursors found so abundantly in nature could be "toxic" under "normal" conditions.

I didn't do well with a 10,000 IU Retinol supplement from Nature's Way around 2018. But thinking back on it. 1) I was just testing, there was no need for me to be taking that. 2) That's a massive dose of a very purified but not quite isolated form, completely unnatural really. And 3) I wasn't really controlling for other factors. Including the myriad other supplements I was toying with.

 

[Sumbody]

It would seem strange to me that a substance that has precursors found so abundantly in nature could be "toxic" under "normal" conditions.

This!

 

[charlie]

Riddle me this. Why do pillows turn yellow after quite some time? I will let you ponder on that. Why once you are well into the detox process and the liver starts purging "vitamin A" and all its glory does it turn the toilet bowl yellow with poo? Yes, bright neon yellow poo. Why on earth would the body be trying to purge this vitamin that many of you think is so awesome? Again, bright yellow neon colored poo when you are in the midst of a heavy detox wave. Would not the body be trying to hold on with everything it has because it can sense that "vitamin A" is on the downtrend instead of purging it with all its might? At the same time its purging through the bile dermatitis will flare up due to some of the "vitamin A" could not make it out the bile to the bowl so it leaked into the blood and oozed out the skin giving a nice face peel.

But alas, if I had not experienced it I probably would not believe it either. So I get it.

 

[Sumbody]

Riddle me this. Why do pillows turn yellow after quite some time? I will let you ponder on that. Why once you are well into the detox process and the liver starts purging "vitamin A" and all its glory does it turn the toilet bowl yellow with poo? Yes, bright neon yellow poo. Why on earth would the body be trying to purge this vitamin that many of you think is so awesome? Again, bright yellow neon colored poo when you are in the midst of a heavy detox wave. Would not the body be trying to hold on with everything it has because it can sense that "vitamin A" is on the downtrend instead of purging it with all its might? At the same time its purging through the bile dermatitis will flare up due to some of the "vitamin A" could not make it out the bile to the bowl so it leaked into the blood and oozed out the skin giving a nice face peel.

But alas, if I had not experienced it I probably would not believe it either. So I get it.

Do you have any scientific documentation asserting any of that you can post here?

Pillows turning yellow because of vitamin A? And not dead skin cells, oils and or sweat?

Is there scientific analysis of yellow stained pillows going on that we are unaware of that backs up this theory?

 

[Ras]

Why do pillows turn yellow after quite some time?

Pillows made of what, slept on by whom, under what conditions, washed how, and washed with what?

Why once you are well into the detox process and the liver starts purging "vitamin A" and all its glory does it turn the toilet bowl yellow with poo?

There are so many variables that could cause something like this. You'd have to run several tests on several people. Has this yellow substance been tested by several labs?

when you are in the midst of a heavy detox wave

What are the incontrovertible proofs that it is a detox wave? What labs have determined this? What diagnostic tests have concluded this? How disputed are the results, by whom, and why? What is the sample size? Can the same effects be demonstrated in animals?

At the same time its purging through the bile dermatitis will flare up due to some of the "vitamin A" could not make it out the bile to the bowl so it leaked into the blood and oozed out the skin giving a nice face peel

Again, what are the incontrovertible proofs that retinoic acid is leaking through the skin and causing these effects? In how many people are these identical effects being observed? Have experiments been run to cause, then reverse, then re-cause these effects in a large sample of different people?

 

[Jennifer]

Riddle me this. Why do pillows turn yellow after quite some time? I will let you ponder on that. Why once you are well into the detox process and the liver starts purging "vitamin A" and all its glory does it turn the toilet bowl yellow with poo? Yes, bright neon yellow poo. Why on earth would the body be trying to purge this vitamin that many of you think is so awesome? Again, bright yellow neon colored poo when you are in the midst of a heavy detox wave. Would not the body be trying to hold on with everything it has because it can sense that "vitamin A" is on the downtrend instead of purging it with all its might? At the same time its purging through the bile dermatitis will flare up due to some of the "vitamin A" could not make it out the bile to the bowl so it leaked into the blood and oozed out the skin giving a nice face peel.

But alas, if I had not experienced it I probably would not believe it either. So I get it.

There can be multiple reasons for yellow stools that I listed a while back in this thread:

Is it normal to get very pale stools from drinking lots of milk?

I have consumed dairy regularly over the years, so it is nothing new for my body, but I never thought to ask if the pale stools were normal. I just assumed that it was, but so much is off about my digestion, so I figured I'd come here to ask. I get VERY pale stools from milk (whole or skim)...

raypeatforum.com

I used to experience frequent bright yellow diarrhea within minutes of consuming an irritating food, especially when I unknowingly had chronic SIBO-induced gastritis, and just like babies, I have yellow stools on a dairy-based diet and it was the same when consuming non-fat dairy as it is consuming full-fat dairy, and it turns brown with just a serving of meat.

If vitamin A is inherently toxic, why did I improve my bone density from a score of -6.7 to -3.6 within a year of Dr. Shanahan putting me on a WAPF inspired diet and supplement protocol (cod liver oil) high in vitamin A? And why, since greatly increasing my (preformed) vitamin A intake last year am I now off thyroid medication completely and received news at my annual doctor’s appointment this week that I gained back another inch in height and my bone density improved even more? Also, why did a split I had in my toenail that ran all the way down to the cuticle grow out completely while following WAPF, return after I removed all fat from my diet except for coconut and occasional olives and avocado, and then grow out again this past year? Lastly, why did baby Earl from the study below cure his rickets while consuming cod liver oil in milk if vitamin A is inherently toxic?

"Roentgenograms of the radial epiphyses of Earl H. (who at the beginning of his experimental period had active rickets) taken at the beginning and end of the six months period are shown in figures 11 and 12. As the monthly roentgenograms of the radial epiphyses of Abraham G. and Donald R. did not show deviations from the normal, they are not included in this article. In this connection it should be remembered that on account of his rickets Earl H. had cod liver oil and a milk (S.M.A.) containing cod liver oil served on his tray during the first months of the experiment and that he took voluntarily 47^ drachms (178 cc.) of the pure cod liver oil and 21^ drachms (80 cc.) of cod liver oil incorporated in S.M.A., a total of 68% drachms (258 cc.) in 101 days. About the time the blood calcium and phosphorus reached normal and the roentgenogram showed the rickets to be healed, he ceased to take any pure cod liver oil and after it had been left untouched on the tray for more than two weeks both it and the S.M.A. were no longer served. Earl H (who had rickets on admission) walked alone at 14 months"

http://www.med.mcgill.ca/epidemiology/hanley/reprints/ClaraDavis1928.pdf

 

[Pete Rey]

This "get worse before you get better" detoxification business reminds me a lot of Andy Cutler's chelation protocols. It's actually a great logical trick. If you get better, then the protocol worked, and you get bonus brownie points for suffering through it. If you get worse and give up, then it's your fault. You just redeposited the heavy metals into different tissue; should have stuck it out. And woe unto you if you criticize the protocol to someone it "helped." You are basically attacking them because you are implying their suffering was irrelevant to their healing. Which is likely true. Fun fact, the surgical industry is almost entirely constructed on such logical fallacies:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzueFu1cq5U


Low fat, low sugar, high protein, high fiber, natural unprocessed foods. I humbly submit, despite all the whatabouts and citation wars, maybe there doesn't need to be a smoking gun. Maybe the issue is just plain old boring NAFLD and this is a great diet for reversing it.

 

[golder]

Every person about whom I've read that reports benefits from lowering their vitamin A, has done so by eating what they consider to be a low vitamin A diet. Therefore, because they changed more than their intake of vitamin A, it could be foolish to attribute their improvements only to the lowered intake of vitamin A. And for many of them, the majority of what they considered their vitamin A intake was in the form of carotenoids, which are not vitamin A. If you eat fewer vegetables, or less liver, you're consuming less of a lot of things.

Maybe vitamin A becomes an issue only when other deficiencies retard its metabolism or functions, similar to other nutrients. Riboflavin deficiency is common, and its adequacy is necessary for proper vitamin A metabolism. It seems odd to presume that the person reporting success from lowering their vitamin A was entirely healthy in every other way and replete in every other nutrient before consuming what they consider to be high amounts of vitamin A.

I’m glad people are starting to point out the obvious elephant in the room. This whole thread reminds me of the many years that I was inadvertently on a conquest to find the one thing that was going to complete my health puzzle (or in this case the one thing to remove). I remember how so many variables conveniently pointed back to the same thing when I had this philosophy.

 

[charlie]

There can be multiple reasons for yellow stools that I listed a while back in this thread:

There is a huge difference between pale stool and bright yellow neon stool. I have had both. I have not even gotten to the green copper colored poo yet. Its glorious!

This whole thread reminds me of the many years that I was inadvertently on a conquest to find the one thing that was going to complete my health puzzle (or in this case the one thing to remove).

This is not one thing. It is many things, toxins. Remove the toxins, replete the essential minerals and literally your body will start oozing out toxins and purging them anyway it can get them out. It is a true site to behold. One of my last sauna sessions I literally turned my white towels blueish green from all the copper that is leaving me.

If vitamin A is inherently toxic, why did I improve my bone density from a score of -6.7 to -3.6 within a year of Dr. Shanahan putting me on a WAPF inspired diet and supplement protocol (cod liver oil) high in vitamin A? And why, since greatly increasing my (preformed) vitamin A intake last year am I now off thyroid medication completely and received news at my annual doctor’s appointment this week that I gained back another inch in height and my bone density improved even more? Also, why did a split I had in my toenail that ran all the way down to the cuticle grow out completely while following WAPF, return after I removed all fat from my diet except for coconut and occasional olives and avocado, and then grow out again this past year? Lastly, why did baby Earl from the study below cure his rickets while consuming cod liver oil in milk if vitamin A is inherently toxic?

If I remember correctly you literally came off of a starvation diet. The increase in calories could easily explain this.

This "get worse before you get better" detoxification business reminds me a lot of Andy Cutler's chelation protocols.

Who said I was getting worse? I am getting better and better and literally am the strongest and have the most muscle I have ever had in my life. The waves of detox come and go and each time they go I level up and am stronger and more alive then I was before it.

 

[mosaic01]

bright yellow neon colored

I was wondering why my urine turned into this bright neon yellow color during the last weeks. Almost like when you take too much riboflavin. Never had this before in my life.

 

[charlie]

Why do teeth turn yellow? Ponder on this a while...... Why do people in the low A groups their teeth get whiter and whiter?

Why do people in the low A groups can eventually come off their thyroid supplement? It sure aint from starving themselves like many of you would like to think is happening. Its from toxic "vitamin A" not poisoning the liver and the liver which is the control center of the thyroid can do what it needs to do. It all starts in the liver, not the thyroid.

 

[GreekDemiGod]

I might actually try the diet for a couple of weeks/ months, since I’m stuck in a rut with my issues. Figured I got nothing to lose. I can always go back.

There was a debate in the Carnivore spaces last few years how/ whether liver is needed on the diet. And how those who ate liver had failed on the diet. Paul Saladino including.

 

[mosaic01]

Why would a toxin be needed for steroid production (according to Peat)? I mean, that is such an embarassing mistake on his part, it would potentially make me question everything he's ever said.

Or is that Grant is actually right and wrong? He's right about the vitamin A overload concept, but he's wrong about it not being a vitamin. It is a vitamin, and needed by the body in very small amounts (for steroid production and everything else that vitamin A is needed for), but, as humans, we age through dietary intake or these toxins (PUFA, vitamin A, iron overload, copper overload, heavy metal toxicity, etc).

There's no evidence it's absoutely essential for steroid production. The problem is that there's no reliable empirical data on vitamin A, because no one has seriously looked into what happens on a reasonable A-free diet long-term. Due to the difficulty in depleting people of retinol and carotenes, studies are not easy. So we are looking at a substance that has not been studied appropriately in the real world. Scientists can discover anything in the lab when there's no good real-world foundation.

The question whether vitamin A is a vitamin only starts to matter once your blood retinol level falls below 20mcg/ml. Almost no one has that low levels and it takes years to deplete.

The facts for vitamin A were all there, if Peat had looked. No one who looks at it open minded can recommend people to increase their vitamin A intake, considering the liver biopsy and toxicity studies. The concept of high vitamin doses looks promising when you compare it to using toxic medication, but it's still a very allopathic thing. Peat got many things wrong because he started with his own experiences and then looked for facts to confirm them. So when he had to take 100k IU of vitamin A to control his acne, he overlooked the fact that it's a bit more complex than just vA deficiency.

The fact that he started losing his teeth when he stopped drinking milk for a week should already make you question him. Not everything he ever said, but some of the practical applications he promoted.

We have to look at it through a historical perspective. With the "chemical revolution", companies started to produce synthetic chemicals promoted for health. This was the point when the collective health started to break down.

Every symptom was suppressed with a chemical, and then new symptoms appeared for which new chemicals were invented. But since all chronic disease symptoms are just a sign of chronic toxicity (with the exception of nutrient deficiencies, lack of hygiene and structural abnormalities), humanity has just gotten more toxic. This process has been going on for centuries. The earliest forms of medicine used extreme toxins like mercury.

Suppressing symptoms means suppressing detoxification. The topic goes very deep. These toxins create a false sense of self, and then people are struggling with themselves, thinking they need to confront their dark side, dissolve their ego, etc. It's all just toxicity.

Slowly going back to a normal life without toxicity is a spiritual process. The bible was written for that purpose, as a guide to prevent people from making themselves toxic = unclean, but due to the cultural and languages changes throughout history, the essence has been lost. The bible talks about health issues and mold, about non-toxic foods, etc.

The big problem is that vA interacts with EMF. So starting with the mass use of smartphones, 5G, starlink, etc., everyone got even sicker. 2013 after the introduction of smartphones was a big shift in health, especially mental health. Peat himself said that vA acts like an antenna for EMF... now think about what that means in our world today... Mold, EMF, vitamin A, those are the big issues, but it's fascinating that many who have tried to avoid mold only got sicker, but eliminating vitamin A made them resistant to it's negative effects. Then there's vaccines that act like a trigger to make the ticking vA time bomb explode.

If enough people wake up to this topic and start detoxing, we have the opportunity, collectively, to start living according to our true purpose.

Ever since the 1960s, people have tried to "detox", and have done all kinds of things, but nothing really worked fundamentally, we all got more toxic. Now the true cause of toxicity has been found. VA is like pulling the plug in a bathtub, when you remove the plug, the water (toxins) can be eliminated. You will have a hard time emptying the bathtub if you don't pull the plug, especially if new water comes in faster than you can empty it.

And obviously some people have a perfect liver and will be more resistant to vitamin A and can take in a lot without becoming toxic, and for some the issue is more related to heavy metals, or pesticides. There's never some specific approach that works for 100% of people all the time, but chronic toxicity itself as the cause of modern disease is universal, and vA is the biggest culprit. As long as the toxins are safely stored away in a well-functioning liver and fat tissues, one can feel perfectly healthy. But often a trigger is enough (infection, extreme stress, mold, etc.) to make the body break down, when the toxins start flowing everywhere. And fiber, binders and a low vA, low toxin diet seems to be a reasonable solution. How this looks in practice is debatable.

 

[GreekDemiGod]

And there are MANY MANY MANY ex Petarians in the low vitamin A and low toxin groups digging themselves out of the hell that was inflicted on the by the Ray Peat dietary recommendations. And that's a fact!

Can I ask what are the name of those groups?
I only know of Discussion
And found A FB group called Vitamin A Toxicity, but it’s not very active.