Weight Loss: Starch And Trytophan Are What Are Stopping You

[YourUniverse]

I have had substantial weight loss.
I am Down 20lbs, muscle is way up, libido as well, fatigue is gone.
I am now a lean, muscular healthy individuals, without restrictive low carb/low fat/excessive excising.

Here's what I have found: It all comes down to hormones

1) All Tryptophan/Cysteine/Methanione and Insulin-Genic Starch are the culprits and disruptions of hormones.

2) Simply going "Low fat" messes with blood sugar swings, fat soul able vitamins, cholesterol production, and high circulating FFA(PUFA).

Diet:
Protein:
Full Fat Sheep and Goat Cheese= A2 Casein+Calcium+Fat
Homemade A2 milk Cottage Cheese
Gelatin/Collagen

This Keep Serotonin down and you will see a huge increase in mood/libido/testosterone

Carbs:
Apple Juice+Salt
Orange Juice+Sugar+Salt

Supplements:
Coffee
b2(strong serotonin antagonist)
vitamin e

You will become ravenously hungry and drop a ton of water weight in the first few days.

Take a gulp of milk/meat and the tryptophan methanione will bloat you up and slow everything down, you will realize the culperts all along.


Avoid:
Starchs=Insulin/Serotonin Producing
All Anti-Metabolic Amminos=Meat, Whey(milk)

Can you post a cronometer pic of an avg daily diet?

 

[tankasnowgod]

You should look at the ratio, not the absolute weight.

He was comparing the ratio. And whey has a higher percentage of tryptophan than almost any other protein out there, not counting isolated aminos. It's the reason milk is so high in tryptophan.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Too much protein taxes the kidneys.

This is only true in individuals with pre-existing kidney conditions. It has never been demonstrated that a high protein intake, around 1-1.5g of protein per pound of bodyweight, has any negative impact on kidney function in healthy individuals, either acute or chronically. In fact, the entire idea seems to be centered around the idea that urea is a toxic waste product. That idea certainly runs counter to the experiences that Dr. Danopoulos had treating patients with supplemental urea.

 

[Cirion]

You should look at the ratio, not the absolute weight.

I'd say a 0.5 to 0.6 (1:1 roughly) tryptophan to tyrosine is a very high (bad) ratio.

@LiveWire , whey is totally unnecessary for gaining muscle, as is the ridiculous protein suggestions by "experts". Most people can probably get by on 100-150 grams a day just fine even weightlifters, even heavy weightlifters at that. Carbohydrates are what you need en masse, not protein. You might need 200-300+ gram if you take steroids, because of how fast muscle mass is synthesized, but average joes? Nah. MAYBE someone who is anorexic and never touched a weight in their life and has zero muscles, but the average person who has average muscles... again, nope.

Why are you intaking 180 gram of whey?? Unless you're on the juice, there is literally no reason to be doing that.

 

[tankasnowgod]

@LiveWire , whey is totally unnecessary for gaining muscle, as is the ridiculous protein suggestions by "experts". Most people can probably get by on 100-150 grams a day just fine even weightlifters, even heavy weightlifters at that. Carbohydrates are what you need en masse, not protein. You might need 200-300+ gram if you take steroids, because of how fast muscle mass is synthesized, but average joes? Nah. MAYBE someone who is anorexic and never touched a weight in their life and has zero muscles, but the average person who has average muscles... again, nope.

Why are you intaking 180 gram of whey?? Unless you're on the juice, there is literally no reason to be doing that.

Haidut posted this study quite a while ago showing that 200+ grams of protein a day can increase muscle mass and lower fat mass. The extra protein was consumed at the expense of carbs, but with 35% of cals coming from carbs, it was in no way a low carb diet. Increasing Protein Intake Modulates Lipid Metabolism in Healthy Young Men and Women Consuming a High-Fat Hypercaloric Diet

The study does line up with my personal experiences, as when I have consumed around 180g of protein a day, I have had the most success with weight loss. After eating near 120g a day for quite a while, I upped it by about 60-70g a day the past week and half, and have felt radically better.

Protein has the highest thermic effect of food, is the only macro that contains nitrogen, and is also beneficial for stimulating albumin and urea. While 100-150g of Protein a day is certainly fine, maybe even ideal, for some, I think a lot of "average" guys could do well with higher protein intakes, maybe much higher.

 

[meatbag]

The dietary ratio of calcium:phosphorus affects the metabolism of tryptophan, whether it goes towards niacin or serotonin.

That is one of the big things about selection of protein sources; the calcium:phosphorus ratio.

The gelatin is added in addition to the proteins higher in try, met, cis, etc.

 

[meatbag]

Haidut posted this study quite a while ago showing that 200+ grams of protein a day can increase muscle mass and lower fat mass. The extra protein was consumed at the expense of carbs, but with 35% of cals coming from carbs, it was in no way a low carb diet. Increasing Protein Intake Modulates Lipid Metabolism in Healthy Young Men and Women Consuming a High-Fat Hypercaloric Diet

The study does line up with my personal experiences, as when I have consumed around 180g of protein a day, I have had the most success with weight loss. After eating near 120g a day for quite a while, I upped it by about 60-70g a day the past week and half, and have felt radically better.

Protein has the highest thermic effect of food, is the only macro that contains nitrogen, and is also beneficial for stimulating albumin and urea. While 100-150g of Protein a day is certainly fine, maybe even ideal, for some, I think a lot of "average" guys could do well with higher protein intakes, maybe much higher.

I agree, I tried a lower protein intake and feel way better when its higher

 

[YourUniverse]

Haidut posted this study quite a while ago showing that 200+ grams of protein a day can increase muscle mass and lower fat mass. The extra protein was consumed at the expense of carbs, but with 35% of cals coming from carbs, it was in no way a low carb diet. Increasing Protein Intake Modulates Lipid Metabolism in Healthy Young Men and Women Consuming a High-Fat Hypercaloric Diet

The study does line up with my personal experiences, as when I have consumed around 180g of protein a day, I have had the most success with weight loss. After eating near 120g a day for quite a while, I upped it by about 60-70g a day the past week and half, and have felt radically better.

Protein has the highest thermic effect of food, is the only macro that contains nitrogen, and is also beneficial for stimulating albumin and urea. While 100-150g of Protein a day is certainly fine, maybe even ideal, for some, I think a lot of "average" guys could do well with higher protein intakes, maybe much higher.

Agree

 

[Cirion]

Haidut posted this study quite a while ago showing that 200+ grams of protein a day can increase muscle mass and lower fat mass. The extra protein was consumed at the expense of carbs, but with 35% of cals coming from carbs, it was in no way a low carb diet. Increasing Protein Intake Modulates Lipid Metabolism in Healthy Young Men and Women Consuming a High-Fat Hypercaloric Diet

The study does line up with my personal experiences, as when I have consumed around 180g of protein a day, I have had the most success with weight loss. After eating near 120g a day for quite a while, I upped it by about 60-70g a day the past week and half, and have felt radically better.

Protein has the highest thermic effect of food, is the only macro that contains nitrogen, and is also beneficial for stimulating albumin and urea. While 100-150g of Protein a day is certainly fine, maybe even ideal, for some, I think a lot of "average" guys could do well with higher protein intakes, maybe much higher.

This hasn't been my experience. I gain weight with either high fat or high protein or both. Admittedly, it might be because when I'm higher protein, there's usually at least one offending food (high tryptophan) in the mix though. But whey, like I say, is high tryptophan, so eating 180g (!!!) of that a day is gonna kill you in tryptophan. I can gain 3 lbs overnight with just 20-30 gram of high tryptophan foods let alone 180. I'm even having issues with increasing protein too much via gelatin, let alone tryptophan. I am having issues too if I go from 8 to 16 oz of beef a day, which is not high in tryptophan.

The dietary ratio of calcium:phosphorus affects the metabolism of tryptophan, whether it goes towards niacin or serotonin.

That is one of the big things about selection of protein sources; the calcium:phosphorus ratio.

The gelatin is added in addition to the proteins higher in try, met, cis, etc.

My personal experience discounts this theory. I was drinking copious low-fat milk and having lots of serotonin-like symptoms. I no longer care about calcium, its relevance seems overstated, at least for me. Gelatin is important, but in my experience hasn't been enough to counteract the negative AA's.

You must keep in mind there's a massive difference between someone healthy and one not. I'm very overweight, so I have an over-reaction to things like tryptophan. So some of your points might apply to someone less overweight than me. I have an over-reaction to ANYTHING even remotely negative. The plus side of this - it's helping me refine and make a perfect diet, slowly but surely.

I believe it's a good metabolism that drives the niacin pathway. Calcium simply doesn't give you a good metabolism. If it did, I would be the healthiest man alive because I was doing close to a gallon of skim milk a day for awhile. Unless you're in optimal health, I think tryptophan foods are always going to convert to serotonin. Simply adding carbs to them , or calcium, or other hacks, are just not going to work for someone sick.

 

[Hans]

@Hans

So how am I supposed to build muscle after wourkout if not with whey? I understand insulogenic is what you want before and after workout.

I take shitload of it before and after, with even more dextrose, as not to slow down anything with things like fructose. I take 30 grams of whey with eirther 6 grams of glycine or 12 grams of collagen. Isn’t that enough to comepete with the trypto? I take it before, during and after workout, as well as morning and evening. That’s like 180 grams of whey on workout days and 60 on non-workout days. I’m still alive and haven’t killed anyone either, or whatever it is that trypto is supposed to be casuing.

I can’t say it works for muscle, but then again nothing ever works on me so that’s a whole another story.

There is no need to take a supplement if you can eat real food.
Milk powder is an alternative to whey.
I'm mainly saying that whey shouldn't be taken on its own, but a mix with another protein source as well as carbs will make it less harmful as well as increase the anabolic effect. For example, whole eggs are more anabolic than egg whites and whole milk is better than skim milk.

Research also show that in the long run hypertrophy is the same if whey or casein is supplemented.

Also, the minimal amount of protein should be 1.6g/kg/BW. Some people respond better to 2.2g/kg/BW and other to 2.6g+/kg/BW.

 

[Cirion]

There is no need to take a supplement if you can eat real food.
Milk powder is an alternative to whey.
I'm mainly saying that whey shouldn't be taken on its own, but a mix with another protein source as well as carbs will make it less harmful as well as increase the anabolic effect. For example, whole eggs are more anabolic than egg whites and whole milk is better than skim milk.

Research also show that in the long run hypertrophy is the same if whey or casein is supplemented.

Also, the minimal amount of protein should be 1.6g/kg/BW. Some people respond better to 2.2g/kg/BW and other to 2.6g+/kg/BW.

I can't handle tryptophan even in the presence of other foods (carbs). Of course, tryptophan alone with no carbs is absolutely devastating and you should definitely NEVER do that.

 

[tankasnowgod]

This hasn't been my experience. I gain weight with either high fat or high protein or both. Admittedly, it might be because when I'm higher protein, there's usually at least one offending food (high tryptophan) in the mix though. But whey, like I say, is high tryptophan, so eating 180g (!!!) of that a day is gonna kill you in tryptophan. I can gain 3 lbs overnight with just 20-30 gram of high tryptophan foods let alone 180. I'm even having issues with increasing protein too much via gelatin, let alone tryptophan. I am having issues too if I go from 8 to 16 oz of beef a day, which is not high in tryptophan.

What do you mean by "high fat or high protein?" It's usually fat and protein that substitute for each other. Most "High Protein" diets still are only 30% of cals from Protein, and that can include a caloric deficit and getting 1 g per pound of bodyweight. The only diet I have seen where protein is a significantly higher percentage is a "Protein Sparing Modified Fast," where people aim for 80% or more of protein along with super low calories. But, I don't think you are doing that.

As for tryptophan...... are you sure it's high tryptophan foods? Okay, ditch milk and whey, fine.... most other quality protein sources just don't have that much. I know you have claimed to be eating massive calories recently while basically being sedentary (in the area of 4,000-5,000, if I remember). I wouldn't doubt the serious caloric surplus and any digestive distress is the root cause of most of your issues.

 

[Cirion]

What do you mean by "high fat or high protein?" It's usually fat and protein that substitute for each other. Most "High Protein" diets still are only 30% of cals from Protein, and that can include a caloric deficit and getting 1 g per pound of bodyweight. The only diet I have seen where protein is a significantly higher percentage is a "Protein Sparing Modified Fast," where people aim for 80% or more of protein along with super low calories. But, I don't think you are doing that.

As for tryptophan...... are you sure it's high tryptophan foods? Okay, ditch milk and whey, fine.... most other quality protein sources just don't have that much. I know you have claimed to be eating massive calories recently while basically being sedentary (in the area of 4,000-5,000, if I remember). I wouldn't doubt the serious caloric surplus and any digestive distress is the root cause of most of your issues.

High fat to me at this point is anything above 40 gram, high protein anything more than 150 gram. Why would they substitute for each other? I'm lowering both protein and fat and increasing carbs.

Yeah, it's high tryptophan foods. Like my most recent failed experiment was having processed bagels (I know I know, stupid me, mostly for convenience and because of the caloric density, easy to hit my carbs. Replacing them today with maltodextrin to get tryptophan and pufa free carbs). Previously, it was fat-free cheese killing me, and before that, de-fatted milk... Literally every time my protein has been high, my tryptophan has also been high. So perhaps, it is a little unfair to entirely blame protein directly.

I am in an extreme conundrum. If I eat too few calories, I lose. If I eat too many, I lose. If I eat a "moderate" amount... I lose. Basically I lose. No matter how few or many calories I eat, I feel bad. But I realize now, reducing calories just isn't the answer. All reducing calories does is alleviate the strain from "bad" foods like tryptophan heavy proteins and fats/pufas.

My goal has been and remains then - How does one eat a high calorie diet and not have problems? You must have a perfect diet, that's how. It is true that a high caloric intake WILL expose even the smallest mistake in your diet, so it's difficult to get right, but I'm slowly getting to the point of achieving it as I tweak things one by one. I have to eat high calorie, because it is the only way for me to A.) sleep through night without stress awakenings B.) not get hungry and C.) keep temps and pulses up (therefore, metabolism). Every time I try to even drop to "Moderate" level calories, my temps and pulses immediately go back to hypothyroid levels (97's in morning and 60 bpm pulse).

But you are right, digestive distress does cause weight gain. But calories do not. Calories is a simple-minded substitute for digestive distress, and doesn't have to be the case, if you eat easily digestible foods. Again, it is very difficult to eat high calories and not have problems, but that's like I say - because it merely exposes any mistakes you've made in your diet. I simply have to make it work - literally I have no choice. I briefly tried dropping my calories to "Moderate" 3000-3500 level and immediately my metabolism started to go full hypo (worse than it already is) again, with multiple up to 6 awakenings at night, horrible moods and energy etc. You simply cannot fix a bad diet by reducing calories. You're putting a bandage on a gunshot wound by doing so. You've reduced the bleeding (reduce weight gain) but haven't fixed the metabolism (removed the bullet).

Now, with ALL that said, it's very possible that once you finally have mostly corrected a metabolism when overweight, that the bodys' needs for calories probably decrease, to maintain a good metabolism. When I was healthy, I think I probably WAS eating roughly 3000-4000 calories a day, if I recall, not 4000-5000 like now. And, ray talks about this - That when he was hypo, he had to eat more and now he needs to eat less.

 

[Hans]

I can't handle tryptophan even in the presence of other foods (carbs). Of course, tryptophan alone with no carbs is absolutely devastating and you should definitely NEVER do that.

People will have to test their sensitivities so that they can know what to do best on. You are very sensitive to tryptophan atm, maybe that will change, but others are not as sensitive and might get away with a little whey, but 180g daily is very excessive :).

 

[Cirion]

People will have to test their sensitivities so that they can know what to do best on. You are very sensitive to tryptophan atm, maybe that will change, but others are not as sensitive and might get away with a little whey, but 180g daily is very excessive :).

I do agree with this. When I was healthy I did convert tryptophan to niacin. In fact I used to get over 50% of my calories from Whey+Maltodextrin shakes, and I literally never felt better in my entire life. However, I would not say that carbs or calcium was the result of my conversion to niacin - it was because my metabolism was ALREADY good going into it. So I am just saying, if you're even remotely un-well, much or even any tryptophan is likely not wise. That said, with my maltodextrin coming in the mail, I would be lying if I said I wasn't tempted to experiment with Whey+Maltodextrin shakes again lol.

 

[meatbag]

High fat to me at this point is anything above 40 gram, high protein anything more than 150 gram. Why would they substitute for each other? I'm lowering both protein and fat and increasing carbs.

Yeah, it's high tryptophan foods. Like my most recent failed experiment was having processed bagels (I know I know, stupid me, mostly for convenience and because of the caloric density, easy to hit my carbs. Replacing them today with maltodextrin to get tryptophan and pufa free carbs). Previously, it was fat-free cheese killing me, and before that, de-fatted milk... Literally every time my protein has been high, my tryptophan has also been high. So perhaps, it is a little unfair to entirely blame protein directly.

I am in an extreme conundrum. If I eat too few calories, I lose. If I eat too many, I lose. If I eat a "moderate" amount... I lose. Basically I lose. No matter how few or many calories I eat, I feel bad. But I realize now, reducing calories just isn't the answer. All reducing calories does is alleviate the strain from "bad" foods like tryptophan heavy proteins and fats/pufas.

My goal has been and remains then - How does one eat a high calorie diet and not have problems? You must have a perfect diet, that's how. It is true that a high caloric intake WILL expose even the smallest mistake in your diet, so it's difficult to get right, but I'm slowly getting to the point of achieving it as I tweak things one by one. I have to eat high calorie, because it is the only way for me to A.) sleep through night without stress awakenings B.) not get hungry and C.) keep temps and pulses up (therefore, metabolism). Every time I try to even drop to "Moderate" level calories, my temps and pulses immediately go back to hypothyroid levels (97's in morning and 60 bpm pulse).

But you are right, digestive distress does cause weight gain. But calories do not. Calories is a simple-minded substitute for digestive distress, and doesn't have to be the case, if you eat easily digestible foods. Again, it is very difficult to eat high calories and not have problems, but that's like I say - because it merely exposes any mistakes you've made in your diet. I simply have to make it work - literally I have no choice. I briefly tried dropping my calories to "Moderate" 3000-3500 level and immediately my metabolism started to go full hypo (worse than it already is) again, with multiple up to 6 awakenings at night, horrible moods and energy etc. You simply cannot fix a bad diet by reducing calories. You're putting a bandage on a gunshot wound by doing so. You've reduced the bleeding (reduce weight gain) but haven't fixed the metabolism (removed the bullet).

Now, with ALL that said, it's very possible that once you finally have mostly corrected a metabolism when overweight, that the bodys' needs for calories probably decrease, to maintain a good metabolism. When I was healthy, I think I probably WAS eating roughly 3000-4000 calories a day, if I recall, not 4000-5000 like now. And, ray talks about this - That when he was hypo, he had to eat more and now he needs to eat less.

Recall that Ray said before he started using thyroid he could eat like 4000+ calories a day and not gain weight and that when he started using thyroid he could go longer without eating not get a stress reaction. The point of having a high metabolism isn't consume a super high calorie diet, and a super high calorie diet doesn't necessarily improve metabolism.

If you tested your thyroid function; body temps and pulse before and after eating, Achilles reflex test, and fluid consumption: urine output and they are optimal, and your blood test for things like vitamin D and PTH look good, then it might be best to consider that there is some kind of bacterial issue causing the issues your having with food. If a persons thyroid function is terrible then even a perfect diet may find them wanting in the health department.

It seems like your focusing on body composition while there are more serious issues that it might be helpful to consider first. What kind of negative reactions are you getting from the food you're eating?

 

[Cirion]

Recall that Ray said before he started using thyroid he could eat like 4000+ calories a day and not gain weight and that when he started using thyroid he could go longer without eating not get a stress reaction. The point of having a high metabolism isn't consume a super high calorie diet, and a super high calorie diet doesn't necessarily improve metabolism.

If you tested your thyroid function; body temps and pulse before and after eating, Achilles reflex test, and fluid consumption: urine output and they are optimal, and your blood test for things like vitamin D and PTH look good, then it might be best to consider that there is some kind of bacterial issue causing the issues your having with food. If a persons thyroid function is terrible then even a perfect diet may find them wanting in the health department.

It seems like your focusing on body composition while there are more serious issues that it might be helpful to consider first. What kind of negative reactions are you getting from the food you're eating?

Like I said, without high calorie intake my temps and pulses are s***, especially waking temps and pulses (97's temp, 60, sometimes even high 50 pulse). With high calorie intake I can usually get 98+ waking temp and 70 or even 80+ waking pulses which is pretty much in line with Ray's recommendation for temps and pulses. I briefly played with T3 but didn't like it. It was like caffeine, gave me a bit of a boost but then crash hard. Plus like I said, with anything other than high calorie, I have constant stress responses pertaining to running out of glucose (Frequent nightly awakenings to urinate and insomnia).

I'm really not focusing on body composition at all, especially considering I am basically morbidly obese at this point and eating high calorie. I am just using the weight on the scale as another metric for comparison (Since your weight should not be going up 1-3 lb a day, and it often does if I eat the wrong things like cheese or whey). And I blame high tryptophan and high fat intake for the weight gain, not the calories. I go back to my previous example - I can gain three pounds in one day with merely 100-200 calories of no-fat cheese. You can't gain 3 lbs of fat with 100-200 excess calories. So it's a stress response, not an excess-calorie response.

 

[meatbag]

Like I said, without high calorie intake my temps and pulses are s***, especially waking temps and pulses (97's temp, 60, sometimes even high 50 pulse). With high calorie intake I can usually get 98+ waking temp and 70 or even 80+ waking pulses which is pretty much in line with Ray's recommendation for temps and pulses. I briefly played with T3 but didn't like it. It was like caffeine, gave me a bit of a boost but then crash hard. Plus like I said, with anything other than high calorie, I have constant stress responses pertaining to running out of glucose (Frequent nightly awakenings to urinate and insomnia).

I'm really not focusing on body composition at all, especially considering I am basically morbidly obese at this point and eating high calorie. I am just using the weight on the scale as another metric for comparison (Since your weight should not be going up 1-3 lb a day, and it often does if I eat the wrong things like cheese or whey). And I blame high tryptophan and high fat intake for the weight gain, not the calories. I go back to my previous example - I can gain three pounds in one day with merely 100-200 calories of no-fat cheese. You can't gain 3 lbs of fat with 100-200 excess calories. So it's a stress response, not an excess-calorie response.

Have you tested for NAFLD?

What brand and dosage of t3 did you try?

 

[Cirion]

Have you tested for NAFLD?

What brand and dosage of t3 did you try?

I haven't, but I can probably bet I have it (NAFLD).

I tried Haidut's T3 Tyronene. At first I tried low "normal" doses, 1-2 drops a day and felt literally nothing at all good or bad. Then I tried high dosages, and started to notice things, but at the high dosages it was just like intaking a bunch of caffeine (like I said). I would feel really good briefly and then like crap soon after.

I read in another thread that even with pure T3, you can increase the rT3 in your body as well. I suspect that's what happened to me, and why I crashed. My body likely ramped up rT3 production in response to the increased T3.

 

[meatbag]

I haven't, but I can probably bet I have it (NAFLD).

I tried Haidut's T3 Tyronene. At first I tried low "normal" doses, 1-2 drops a day and felt literally nothing at all good or bad. Then I tried high dosages, and started to notice things, but at the high dosages it was just like intaking a bunch of caffeine (like I said). I would feel really good briefly and then like crap soon after.

I read in another thread that even with pure T3, you can increase the rT3 in your body as well. I suspect that's what happened to me, and why I crashed. My body likely ramped up rT3 production in response to the increased T3.

It's possible to use too much t3. I think Ray recommended like 4 mcg at a time. If your eating sufficient Protein and Carbohydrate and your getting stress reactions like your describing I think you might want to consider the liver. Consuming sufficient protein and liver had been recommended for improving liver health and making sure the vitamin d level is close to 50 ng/dl.