Escaping Learned Helplessness

[CellularIconoclast]

In one of the studies in which rats had been taught learned helplessness so they would drown in five or six minutes, just being able to see another rat escape would let the informed rat go for days without drowning. Just the recognition that someone else did it can make all the difference.

transcribed from audio

 

[haidut]

In one of the studies in which rats had been taught learned helplessness so they would drown in five or six minutes, just being able to see another rat escape would let the informed rat go for days without drowning. Just the recognition that someone else did it can make all the difference.

transcribed from audio

Ondansetron is also very helpful. Human dosage of <4mg daily reversed learned helplessness in all animals models tried. Higher doses did not work though, so more is not better in this case.

 

[4peatssake]

In one of the studies in which rats had been taught learned helplessness so they would drown in five or six minutes, just being able to see another rat escape would let the informed rat go for days without drowning. Just the recognition that someone else did it can make all the difference.

transcribed from audio

Ondansetron is also very helpful. Human dosage of <4mg daily reversed learned helplessness in all animals models tried. Higher doses did not work though, so more is not better in this case.

Do you remember the time frame haidut?

 

[haidut]

In one of the studies in which rats had been taught learned helplessness so they would drown in five or six minutes, just being able to see another rat escape would let the informed rat go for days without drowning. Just the recognition that someone else did it can make all the difference.

transcribed from audio

Ondansetron is also very helpful. Human dosage of <4mg daily reversed learned helplessness in all animals models tried. Higher doses did not work though, so more is not better in this case.

Do you remember the time frame haidut?

I think it was over the course of 2 months. Here is the study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1532555

If you prefer the natural route, ginger has a number of compounds that are strong 5-HT3 antagonists and that is the presumed reason behind its effectiveness for nausea and vomiting.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced ... gDone=true
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2054863
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17511060
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21305447

I exchanged some emails years ago with an Iranian scientist working exclusively with ginger and he said the optimal daily dosage for ginger is 5g (teaspoon) of ginger juice or 20g of actual ginger root. It could be different for you but it is a good starting guideline.

 

[4peatssake]

In one of the studies in which rats had been taught learned helplessness so they would drown in five or six minutes, just being able to see another rat escape would let the informed rat go for days without drowning. Just the recognition that someone else did it can make all the difference.

transcribed from audio

Ondansetron is also very helpful. Human dosage of <4mg daily reversed learned helplessness in all animals models tried. Higher doses did not work though, so more is not better in this case.

Do you remember the time frame haidut?

I think it was over the course of 2 months. Here is the study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1532555

If you prefer the natural route, ginger has a number of compounds that are strong 5-HT3 antagonists and that is the presumed reason behind its effectiveness for nausea and vomiting.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced ... gDone=true
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2054863
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17511060
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21305447

I exchanged some emails years ago with an Iranian scientist working exclusively with ginger and he said the optimal daily dosage for ginger is 5g (teaspoon) of ginger juice or 20g of actual ginger root. It could be different for you but it is a good starting guideline.

Thanks a lot!

Going to try the ginger as I prefer natural where possible and thanks also for the Pau d'Arco recommendation.

 

[SQu]

Thanks for ginger info! I used to use it a lot, but then I also used liquorice root and other stuff so I stopped all that. But I'm going to revisit this one. Ginger has a nice sweetness and can be good grated and drunk as a tea/added to some teas.

 

[Peata]

on peatarian, there was talk of ginger as serotonin antagonist: http://www.peatarian.com/13050/ginger-a ... 050#q13050 also referencing a same study as Haidut listed.

 

[CellularIconoclast]

If you guys are looking for a way to experiment with ginger, some of the non-alcoholic 'ginger beer' at health food stores contains huge quantities of ginger.

Reed's Extra Ginger Brew for example has 26g of ginger per bottle, and I've had good luck with it to prevent motion sickness.

 

[SQu]

They mention motion sickness and serotonin and histamine. I've had it my whole life. Never outgrew it. Can't sit in back seat of car even for a few minutes. Buses uuurgh and boats forget about it! No wonder I always liked ginger. It's fun solving old health problems! Thanks!

 

[gummybear]

Very interesting thread, thanks. Is there any other ways to get out of learned helplessness? Is it just high serotonin that is the cause and the immidiate reaction is then to lower it?

 

[jyb]

Ondansetron is also very helpful. Human dosage of <4mg daily reversed learned helplessness in all animals models tried. Higher doses did not work though, so more is not better in this case.

Hum, interesting.

 

[tara]

I use ginger in my food in these ways:
- often cook a bit of ginger root along with veges in soup.
- occasionally snack on crystalised ginger
- recently baked biscuits with ginger powder (gluten-free/low starch)
- occasional ginger ale/beer
Would you expect the ginger in these forms to be a workable way to get anti-serotonin benefits, or would these kinds of processing be likely to reduce the effect? Anyone know?

 

[haidut]

I use ginger in my food in these ways:
- often cook a bit of ginger root along with veges in soup.
- occasionally snack on crystalised ginger
- recently baked biscuits with ginger powder (gluten-free/low starch)
- occasional ginger ale/beer
Would you expect the ginger in these forms to be a workable way to get anti-serotonin benefits, or would these kinds of processing be likely to reduce the effect? Anyone know?

The ginger compounds that have anti-serotonin effects are all pungent, so I'd expect that if the cooked ginger is still pungent then those compounds are still present and should have effects. I have not seen a study comparing cooked to raw ginger effects though.

 

[Xisca]

Very interesting thread, thanks. Is there any other ways to get out of learned helplessness? Is it just high serotonin that is the cause and the immidiate reaction is then to lower it?

Serotonine or any neurotransmetor seems to me a consequence more than a cause, a way to make the body react.

Lerned helplessness is when the 2 main reactions of the body to danger do not work. When you cannot flee or fight, then... So when it is repeted over time, you do not even try, you "know" it is useless. The reaction is just automatic.

Flee and fight are the 2 first Fs, but there is a third which is called Freeze. This is the possum reaction, the stress of death just makes him "fall like dead". He does not play it actually, this is an automatic autonomous response. This can be life saving! So this is not a useless reaction.

The problem seems the difficulty humans have to go out of the freeze response after a stress, small or big. Animals do it by shaking. Shaking is just a concentrate of back and forth movements, which are the useless flee and fight responses that were stuck in the body.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Shaking is just a concentrate of back and forth movements, which are the useless flee and fight responses that were stuck in the body.

Damn nice concept!

 

[pboy]

really the only way is to with your own eyes, and being, overcome something, or at least sense progress towards such. Often its a matter of timing, intent, 'luck' and other things but really you have to prep yourself, be ready, and continuously try to overcome what it is...without being stupid and banging head into wall. Be observant, come in at all angles, and right timing...for whatever the thing might be. Often times people need a total inner transformation to actually have the desire in the first place. You'll see, most people are FULL of negative stuff, 'oh they're just lucky, they were b orn into this or that family' 'I couldn't do that, im not that race' or you name it, I could name thouasands of things people are full of. 'oh im too old' 'its too late for me' 'I could never do THAT' ect ect. The th ing is, if any human being has done anything, another one...barring a few exceptions, can do it also. Psycho spiritual substances can help build a sense of connectedness to life, often times also if people change their diet or start moving and grovving lot in their life, in general their energy goes up and they see themselves as being much more capable and strong and with endurance, they'll have the confidence to try to do whatever thing they felt helpless to do. So yea, basically, increasing your health, and point of view, and spirit...and energy levels and openness to anything being possible, the more likely you'll be able to overcome disbelief about anything that's real and possible. I mean to be honest, this isn't a simple thing or something science can figure out, its not just a take a pill thing...we're talking re wiring your whole being through experience and feeling and then you have to add spirituality into it all, or just that whole thing...even re wiring memories from the past, seeing from their true perspective instead of what they were at the time, dropping a TON of grbage collected from society and school and other people, and parents...which is...even if you are 100% fully dedicated to this and have all the resources, the fact is you have to myellinate it all in its proper way through experience, so it takes many years at the fastest...to make big progress

 

[narouz]

pboy-
you're placing importance on action and spirit
over diet
to some degree
aren't you?

 

[tara]

The problem seems the difficulty humans have to go out of the freeze response after a stress, small or big. Animals do it by shaking.

Humans animals do it by shaking too, if they have not been forced/trained not to.
TRE seems to be one of the ways people are deliberately trying to free up this facility.

 

[pboy]

in terms of overcoming learned helplessness, yes...not over diet, just on equal terms. They actually go hand in hand, mental beliefs influence diet and vice verse, as well as sense of worthiness to actually succeed...all tied together. Its such a complex topic especially in our society, theres a lot of other factors like...the space you're in and people you're around, living with, how much freedom you have, and a lot of other things that can flip a switch from courage to and belief in doing something over doubt and fear about the thing . It all comes down to feelings of openness courage, grace, and support inside...spirit is large part of that, state of your conscience, and also people you're around and interact with, experiences you have or things youve witnessed. Diet is enormous because it can...keep you in a low state or cause this or that offense, and in such a state, unless you are already wired a certain way via a knowing of something better and certain experiences you've had, diet alone can keep someone down or from expanding and in a pessimistic negative state, out of touch with anything higher...within themselves and outside. And even once you are extremely well developed mentally, soulfully, experienced, your wiring is straight to know whats always going on within and outside and are able to be stable and confident, good diet makes everything 10x easier and you have more energy and feel more elated and connected most of the time, as well as sleep...sunlight, social interaction and other non diet essentials. Id almost say diet is the most important thing, but when I think about my journey...sure things really changed and took off when I started looking into health, food, chemicals, and changed all that about 6 years ago...like HUGE changes, but also...I was inspired in the first place to do that because of an internal insight and thought process and other situations in my life, synchronicities and just a knowing or longing...so those things came before the desire to consider health and my body and environment and all that as a main factor. Plus, because it came from a strong internal forcing almost, it allowed me to go through some extreme experiences, experiments, and have the fortitude to stand in that path despite many tugs and pulls and awkward situations to overcome. This came after time id been partying for a few years post high school and into college using substances and having years of late nights, adventures, crazy fun and ..all kinds of experiences. Id go in nature a lot also with friends and just by myself. Cannabis was enormous. So then that inspired me to change diet, I kinda was forced to make a change because of various circumstances and I refused to not believe in the highest possibilities, the harmony of life..id just seen too many things, had too many experiences, insights, being in nature, listening to soul, so then ...about a year later I became a vegan and sorta jumped all in, this was before things were popular as they were today on the internet...like I didn't even watch youtube then, so I was doing all what I was just from the heart and learning in real time, I basically felt 10x better than I ever had naturally, cause I was actually healthy with bloodflow and had ton of energy, I ended up going on the whole food journey and more for years, now I realize when I eat, or ate along the way, and just through all the experimentation, that food...diet, lifestyle like that, is so important ..hugely important for feelings of being able to break through things, change things, internal fortitude, inner trust, respect of life, and much more...yet somehow I kicked it all off...while still eating an avg diet and just coming off drinking a lot and other stuff. All related, and influence each other directly.
For me it was about higher exploration of life and my soul, so naturally diet had to line up with those values and fit into the beliefs, knowings really, that id experienced. Then diet became my main focus, health in general, when I realized how much of a huge factor it was, and for the sake of experiencing the most in life...being the most awake and sensitive, I desired nothing but the most promotional diet and lifestyle that never caused pain or feelings of holding me back

In fact in a lot of ways, this goes into the purpose of life itself. Theres a lot of things you can go all out in and play your hand perfectly, but just isn't going to happen, at that moment or whatever it is...its part of life, but really...the learned helplessness thing, in a lot of ways, is like trying to achieve liberation, the highest goal in eastern spirituality. Many people will say and write about how to interpret that and I think most people haven't come close and don't know what' they're talking about. If you are a slave to something, a book, a concept, wearing robes and reciting stuff, you're far from it...yet those are the people that talk about it like authorities! On my journey ive come to realize, its really liberation to give yourself 100% permission to be fully you, in every way conceivable, how you express yourself, how you want to behave, how you want to believe, where you want to be who you're around, and what you want to explore. When you are literally as free to be yourself as like a little kid, in terms of just expression and being, you're pretty happy no matter what, everything is an opportunity for fun. And in that state of mind, learning increases WAY fast because you're just more open, and you begin to understand life much more and have more appreciation for the magnitude of it all

This obviously differs from a rat drowning, and if a human finds themselves in situation of say a famine or something where theres like no quick answer, its sort of futile to assume you can overcome the helpless feeling immediately, like you keep working towards it rhythmically and gracefully, and decisively, but sometimes you cant have it right away...that kinda thing. You cant take a pill to end the famine right away, or to make things magically appear or happen. But if you have a deeper faith and keep acting in the best manner with a fun spirit and a knowing inside, you'll not only suffer less during it but will be more likely to come out of it. Its like why people drink or smoke..during such situations that require patience or some kind of endurance or something, and joke and tell stories and talk to other people, some situations cant be overcome right away but if you maintain good spirit and fully express yourself in an even foolish matter just for the fun of it, its not that bad. Its why little kids are never depressed or unhappy even while being dragged around by parents or in places they don't like or with no possessions or entertainement devices, theyre just fully free within, they don't even know what not being that is. And they always have an inkling inside, a knowing, that even if a certain situation isn't the best, its naturally going to get better tomorrow, or the next day, and they fully let opportunities for happiness that well within no matter what the belief or spontaneous expression or action is, they do it just for the fun of it..to feel good and free and alive and happy, without thinking about it or defining it

Basically, you can work on within 100% and execute in life, outside curcumstances are often unavoidable or just not ideal, but if you're really good within, diet wise, and spirit wise, you're pretty good anyways and can even just have fun or make fun with lifes stuff, and its all good. Just don't ever choke yourself up with any guilt fear or doubt of being judged or failure, let yourself fully be, do it for the fun, do it so you'll really know, do it cause you want to, it would make you feel doped and explorative and happy, and that's the kinda beliefs you need to overcome stuff, and rewire and purge your mind from all the non real garbage or fears or doubts or guilts or other peoples voices and garbage or whatever it is. Leave nothing on the table that's like well I could have done this or that, or it would have been awesome or fun if I did this or that or to have done this or that, so even if you are in one of those situations of things externally not being optimum, you are still present and know its simply an outside circumstance, not something within

theres a large momentum factor also, the more you courage out of the helpless negative state, the more you believe you can do it more and again. The more you sink back, the more its just habit to do that...but every time you do that, it eats you up inside and ultimately youll never be satisfied, build regret and have tension and even bitterness

I don't have all the answers, but I know how to never have myself be to blame for not having gone all out, for being and trusting within all out, and for not feeling bad about anything I did, or anything I didn't try to do...then from there, whatever happens is just how it is. If it turns out life itself is a hopeless arena of inevitable suffering at least on occasion or in some fashion, at least I will know its not me, its just life

a large part of learned helpless...that whole retreat or just...tense choking up in life thing, is mostly because of lack of human, social, love and understanding. We are in a situation now where a social animal that used to have to rely on each other, work together, to survive as its only goal, it was us against nature...well, in harmony of nature, but against starving and freezing or being eaten basically, or poisoned, into a situation where its human vs human, in a subtle but obvious to our subconscious way...everything as simple as a commercial on TV is really an attack on one human from another over resources or just for greed and isn't love or authenticity at all. So basically the fact we feel inside, that we aren't genuinely part of a tribe...or that all the people around us are fully on the same team, fully honest about our situation as human beings...souls in a body, here, with all the things about life, is a huge constant stress that plays and messes with subconscious in a huge way...the fact people starve while others rich, people lie, people scheme, no one cares that much, ect..is a horrible deep knowing that most people ultimately know but it isn't in the surface of their thoughts. So to really be a real human...wow man, it takes a special level of, many would say craziness, but its just dedication to being real and to really be the most of what you are, you basically have to not play the game of society, play the real game of you , us, humans, here, no idea whats going on, this is the situation, be real, express feelings totally honestly, ect....like why do people were uncomfortable suits as an obligatory thing? we all know we all function better and want to wear light loose things...theres some kind of posturing, rank, human against human threatening vibe, so people just do it and don't san anything. Real humans, non helpless humans, never have to distort or twist of candy coat what they say (lie)..., or posture up some image mask persona to others, so to totally be free and non helpless in feel, you often have to be very...bold, and almost not care what happens, beacsue that's just how the situation is, and that's how we were designed to be

 

[Xisca]

The problem seems the difficulty humans have to go out of the freeze response after a stress, small or big. Animals do it by shaking.

Humans animals do it by shaking too, if they have not been forced/trained not to.
TRE seems to be one of the ways people are deliberately trying to free up this facility.

Yes, I also know TRE and this is efficient. It is less specific than SE but both work on the same basis. And TRE can be done alone.

I did not write properly what I meant. Right, we can shake too.
Unlike animals, we have a mind that judges it quite often, as you mention, some people suppress it.

When we do not suppress it, well usually we do not put our attention on it, and the process would be easier by doing so. The discharge of the NS can then be fuller.