Gi Issues, Chronic Bile reflux gastritis, bloating and Constipation.

[SamYo123]

Hi Hans! I just was accepted to the forum.. thank you, thank you, thank you to whomever was responsible. I didn't intend to write anything yet - but your post just popped up and I have to comment, because I share all of your issues (and more). I am 3 times your age, so feel bad that you are suffering at such a young age - I don't have any miracle cures, but I have a decade of life research, I can tell you what hasn't worked for me; and add my experiences with some of the suggestions you have already received here - maybe save you some money and time. Obviously, the root cause of your problem may be different from mine, and you should not dismiss anything because it did not work for me; however we do share some similarities and sometimes knowing you are not alone helps. My GI problems and related issues are what led me here, and I think/hope that some of Dr. Peats ideas will help me. Just FYI, my problem started immediately after I had my gallbladder removed. The constellation of symptoms you have is very common - and so you may have (or will likely eventually have) some of the other issues I have; as they seem to go together. I also have had a decade of talking with and reading hundreds of stories of people with similar problems, and there do seem to be some commonalities.

I think getting at the root cause is always best.. if possible; but sometimes it isn't possible right away. So, you peel away at the layers, deal with the symptoms, and try to avoid things that make things worse. What I've come to learn in general, is that the most important thing - is to "keep it moving'. i.e you don't have time to spend figuring out the problem or fixing your gut to resolve the constipation. Now - I am throwing out some of my philosophy and experience here (10 years) . In my case, and possibly yours, the constipation is not the CAUSE of the problems, BUT , it causes the other symptoms of the 'clogged up system' to occur, and so it has to be dealt with - with what I consider 'emergency measures.. i.e laxatives' - if that is what you need to do to get things moving. This might not be popular here, and again - is not meant to be your long term solution, but, IMO, if you let yourself go 2 or 3 days without going, and your get back up, everything else gets worse, and then you have to go through a lot of discomfort to "unclog" (I am using non-medical nomenclature :) ) .

I have had a lot of tests - and in my case, my small intestine is the problem - the transit is very slow, and I have inflammatory changes there. If things 'back up', then things will stay in your small intestine longer, and bacteria will start to grow there. Further down, or maybe even at the proximal part of the small intestine; and you develop a problem called SIBO, I have this that was diagnosed with an endoscopy. i.e. they cultured all kinds of unpleasant bacteria from my S. I. - when there should be none in there. They belong in your colon. They colonize b/c your food is sitting there long enough for them to take up residence. IMO, it has little to do with what you eat, or that you are eating sugar, or carbs, etc. It is because THINGS ARE NOT MOVING. Now, these nasty bacteria are eating your nutrients, and producing toxins, and gasses, making your bloated, and possibly giving you pain ( I have a lot). You are exhausted because you aren't getting your nutrition and fuel. All of this can contribute to the reflux as things further back up. And there are more negative results as this process continues on. SO - much can be helped by keeping it moving. See below.

1. How do you know it is bile that is refluxing? Have you had an endoscopy? They will take a sample and if there is bile in your stomach- it doesn't belong there; it is reflux. This can also lead to inflammation of the stomach. Do you have your gallbladder (I'm assuming you do). Keep it :)

2. Why are you eliminating fat from your diet? To help the constipation? Is it helping? It sounds like it might not be.. so you might want to think about that.

Now my summaries:

1. Have you considered your thyroid status? As low thyroid will slow down your transit, as well as decrease all of the stomach and digestive enzyme production from the small intestine. I only recently discovered RP and his writings on thyroid. I suspect I have been hypothyroid for at least 4 decades. I have just started cyanoplus (T3/T4) with extra T3 cynomel) hoping for more immediate relief of symptoms. Too soon to tell. It seems to me, you could consider your symptoms a sign of low thyroid, and try treating it as such - instead of adding digestive enzymes and other supplements, and even laxatives - maybe this could take care of all of those things. If I was starting from scratch.. this is where I would begin.

2. I have had the same experience with the gluten, carbs , sugar.. in my case dairy.. basically every thing that they tell you to not it. b/c in my humble opinion, my problem is not triggered by a specific food or food type. It is a MOTILITY problem. Because of the lack of motility, I won't tolerate some things now, and certain things need to be avoided.. i.e things that don't do well in dark , most environments.. like leafy greens.. salads.. raw vegetables, and SOLUBLE FIBER. In fact, I need to eat very little fiber right now. i.e - white everything. I realize my diet may not be ideal now, but can work toward perfecting it. I would not worry much about sugar and carbs that everyone will tell you are 'feeding bacteria and yeast'. What is more important is keeping things moving. I have observed people with digestive systems I envy who eat lots of sugar and carbs. I see no direct causative link. I do observe they poop regularly. So, go with what you experience. I do best with simple sugars and hi glycemic index carbs, as do most with SIBO, b/c you absorb these more quickly, so at least you are getting something. Anything that stays in your gut longer gives more for the bacteria and less for you, and avoid anything called a "prebioltic' at all costs.

3. I think you can assume you have SIBO based on the pattern you are describing. This means NO bacteria for you - no fermented foods (which seem to be very hip and trendy now), no probiotics. ( *these are all my personal opinions obviously, so take with a grain of T3, lol). I think the probiotic industry is a big scam. We have 1000s of species in our colons and the idea that we are going to correct anything with a few strains in a pill makes no sense. The research is really limited and not good. There is no evidence that any of these supplements get to your colon and colonize there, and actually make a difference. Of course I have tried them and always felt worse.

4. One very wise practitioner told me, it is also ridiculous to think you are making an impact with one pill, or even with eating bacterial cultures, when you are swallowing way more constantly via your saliva. So - oral health is critical and some even theorize my be a causative agent. Look into this.

5. Taking digestive enzymes orally makes no sense to me (at least the intestinal ones) because you are not getting them where and likely when you need them. Again, I am not convinced they survive the pH of the stomach to arrive in the alkaline duodenum in the proper form, and at the right time to be of any use. Of course, being desperate I still tried them, and as expected, they were of no help. In fact, one that someone has recommended here - Enzymatica Gold I believe - made me horribly sick. I vomited about an hour after eating it, and continued to be sick for a day; with a fresh hell of symptoms. On the Amazon page selling this product - I noticed 7 people complaining of vomiting and/or cramps - awful GI reactions.

6. RP recommends Cascara Sagrada for a laxative; so I would consider that; and read his article if you haven't yet. Unfortunately it gives me horrible cramps and I don't tolerate the brands I've tried. I do see a company on this forum sells a powder form, so maybe I could try it in a smaller dose. Now I use Senna tea - a cup or 2 a night moves things along for me so I will have a bm in the am, although it will not always feel complete. If I feel too backed up, maybe 1-2 x /month, I will take 2 ducolax (biscodyl). This would not be recommended, they appear to be full of toxins, but after a night of suffering awful cramps, things will be emptied out. My goal is to prevent needing this.

7. You will note that I am using stimulant laxatives. In my experience, like many like me; the osmotic laxatives are of no use, and only make me worse i.e. Miralax, Psyllium husks, even too much Mg, or Vit C, prune juice, etc. etc. These work by drawing fluid into the colon, which is supposed to stimulate it to contract. This works for normal people. However, my colon is unresponsive to such stimuli, so using these things will cause it to expand and expand with water, BUT not move anything, so I will be in more pain and not be able to wear most clothing.

8. Related to the above - drinking more water, will not help; provided you are adequately hydrated. See above.

9. I have tried RPs carrot salad, and I think it is still too much fiber for me, so have stopped that. Although I could perhaps re-start with 1/4 carrot. I like the idea. I have found that sometimes it is not the actual food substance, but the amount that can make a difference. A good think to keep in mind in general.

10. What AB and antifungal did you try? I did the metronidazole, which also made me sick and didn't seem to help. I did a course of Xifaxin twice, which they push now, and it did nothing. I was supposed to take the met and that at once, but I was too sick. That is all any practitioner will do. I would like to try erythromycin if the thyroid doesn't fix me enough, and have ordered some. It was recommended a long time ago as a 'motility' agent; and as RP has said, has anti-inflammatory as well as the AB effects. No one wants to prescribe it b/c it is cheap, I presume; but makes some sense.

11. I also tried the new pricey 'motility' wonder drug Prucalopride, which did nothing but make a dent in my savings (I believe $500 for a month's supply).

12. I like Elliot Overton's videos, they are informative, and I tried the Thiamine approach with his supplement, and also with some plain old thiamine. It did not help. The plain thiamine gives me headaches and some nausea at the higher dose you need to get to. Could be the brand, etc. ; but I'm not going to explore this further as I think my problem is more than one single B vitamin.. I'm really hoping the thyroid will be part of the answer.

12. I did the enemas, a few times, but again, they don't really do much; and are way too messy and difficult for me for the lack of benefit.

13. For many reasons, I won't go into, I've found doing squatting as an exercise to be helpful. I read a book called Polarity therapy with suggests some exercises based on this. Too much to go into. There is a guy on you tube you has some good videos re: what he calls "Asian squats" and how to get your body into this position if you aren't used to it. Same thing really under many different names.

I'm sure I have a lot more.. this is already like a book. Let me know what you think and feel free to ask any questions. I'm sure there are typos in here, as I don't proofread, my apologies in advance. Also I am so grateful to be added to this forum and have learned so much from reading posts here.

Why is it some people eliminate quicker with fiber intake?

 

[kafkaz]

You may try Zinc Carnosine (Doctor`s Best PepZin GI or Pure Encapsulations Peptic-Care ZC).
D-Limonene is also very good, already mentioned here. You will know when to stop taking it.
And slippery elm powder.

 

[DrJ]

Hello my name is Hans and I am currently 20 years old.

I have been suffering from chronic gastritis which I believe to have come from bile reflux for the past year. Along with that I have been chronically constipated and have had to almost eliminate fat completely from my diet.

I was wondering if anyone is experiencing something similar and could maybe suggest a more permanent solution.

The things I have tried which haven't worked are:

Gluten free
Low carb (hard to maintain and causes more pain)
Antibiotics(have me a white tongue and had zero effect on the pain)
Antifungals (caused severe symptoms)

Things that have worked:

Low Histamine (has worked to some degree)
Low fermented foods(Has worked quite well)
Diary free
Very low fat(has had the most effect)
Very low fiber(has had the most effect but constipates the heck out of me)

It sounds like a form of cholestasis. Your stools are probably pale? Do you feel anxious often?

I would get some bile salts and take them on an empty stomach and see if you feel better or calmer in about an hour or so. If that works then start taking the bile salts with food and your digestion of food and in particular fats should improve dramatically. If you get diarrhea you are taking too much bile salts so back off the dose.

 

[Phosphor]

I see there is a lot written above, which I did not read.
However, if you had a strong reaction to antifungals, that was likely a Herksheimer reaction and you should pay attention to that, because it means you have a fungal problem. Antibiotics, which gave you white tongue, make fungus worse. I would suggest you look into whether you have a candida overgrowth, which is indicated by the white tongue and the fact that you reacted so strongly to the antifungals. Eating sugar or carbohydrates would worsen your symptoms. You might make some headway with caprylic acid and very low doses of Argentyn; with the Argentyn, what my MD did for people with candida (as well as the caprylic acid) was have them take two tablespoons of Argentyn in the mouth, swish for one minute, and spit out. Over time, this treatment changed their blood work results for candida from positive to negative. Best of luck and I'm sure you got other good advice above.

 

[OliviaD]

I'm glad you brought that up, Sam. That seems to be true for people with a HEALTHY GI tract. Or, healthy enough to be able to move the fiber along. It does seem to be the case for some people, like me; that my intestinal tract can not tolerate much fiber at all. I think it is very individual. My problem came on very acutely after a surgery - so a few doctors have speculated it is some type of "nerve damage', i.e it is a neuromuscular problem. In my case; it seems perhaps the nerves that stimulate peristalsis don't get the signal, or don't react properly to it. OR, the nerves that cause the smooth muscle to contract are not working.. or many it is a muscular defect. Perhaps this is an energetic defect.. of all of the above. I'm just starting to look at it this way.

I do eat some fiber, I'm not trying for any; just low enough to keep things moving and not create extreme pain. I do think RP is right, the insoluble fiber is much better. Right now, I go by my symptoms and what works for me. I believe a person with a healthy or strong small and large colon will be able to move the fiber along. For me, it creates a 'clog'. My hope is that if I can ever get my gut working better, I can increase the fiber some.

It's all very complicated, and I don't claim to have any answers; but I do find discussions like this to be so valuable. I have learned the most from others who have experienced/are experiencing these issues.

I am very exciting since discovering Dr. Peat's work, although sad it took so long. He sees to offer a lot of potential help for someone like me. I do think the PUFAs are also an interesting player.

I'm just trying to figure it all out, and get through the day right now :)

 

[OliviaD]

I'm not sure this would be a good strategy from him as he says he suspects he has gastritis from bile reflux (I'm not sure how he knows this). If his stomach lining is inflamed from bile (which is alkaline), then I think adding bile salts would only aggravate the issue.

Have you used this remedy? I'm trying to understand it, as I do hear many people recommending these bile salts; although I don't know anyone personally who uses them or has found them helpful (that doesn't mean anything!). I am hesitant about them, b/c they are naturally excreted into the duodenum; the proximal small intestine, in that alkaline environment. They aren't supposed to be in the stomach. I would think if you used them, you would also use them at the same time as you are eating fat. Otherwise I think they would irritate the mucous membranes, as they are here.

Bile emulsifies fat only so wouldn't have any affect on general digestion of food; but maybe there is a rationale I am missing; and if this has worked for you I am curious.. also about how bile salts have made you less anxious.

 

[Andy316]

@OliviaD Good post and you resonated many points which I found too through trial and error over last many years being on RP forum. Like Hans, I get constipated on low fiber diet but found that a little warm water helps to move things along.

If I may ask what's your typical daily diet like Olivia?

 

[OliviaD]

this is a mistake and I don't see a delete option :)

 

[Hans Noddeboe]

@OliviaD Good post and you resonated many points which I found too through trial and error over last many years being on RP forum. Like Hans, I get constipated on low fiber diet but found that a little warm water helps to move things along.

If I may ask what's your typical daily diet like Olivia?

Hi, yes
Right now all I eat is a glass of low fat milk w honey for breakfast. Apple sauce and chicken breast for lunch. For a snack I'll have milk/orange juice and mashed potatoes with low fat milk added. I also eat beef mince and butter but have had to limit due to pain and intolerance. I also have been trying to implement rays carrot salad into my diet but it gives me alot of pain unfortunately. Oat bran has seemed to be better(if well cooked with oats added) feel terrible when I eat it though.

 

[Hans Noddeboe]

It sounds like a form of cholestasis. Your stools are probably pale? Do you feel anxious often?

I would get some bile salts and take them on an empty stomach and see if you feel better or calmer in about an hour or so. If that works then start taking the bile salts with food and your digestion of food and in particular fats should improve dramatically. If you get diarrhea you are taking too much bile salts so back off the dose.

Would bile not make it worse since it could irritate the lining of the stomach ?

 

[DrJ]

Would bile not make it worse since it could irritate the lining of the stomach ?

I do not know of any evidence indicating that bile can irritate the lining of a healthy stomach.

 

[OliviaD]

Hi

Yes, alright those points do make alot of sense. The reason I believe the actual pain to be perhaps bile related, or maybe some sort of allergen or histamine intolerance is the fact that the day it hurt most was infact when I was taking the most acid reducing medication in the form of 2 famotidines AND 2 omeprazole. Which only seemed to make it worse as I had had kefir and it was just sitting in my stomach the whole day burning.

I saw a post on Reddit where a gastritis sufferer who had it for 5+ YEARS went on a diet of only chicken breast and apple sauce for a month. Aswell as some sort of white bread cracker and it seemed to completely heal them?

I was thinking of trying that because I do think it might be intestinal related such as sibo (like you said) and keto/carnivore isnt working so far?

Hi Hans - Hope you are hanging in there. I'm sorry it took me so long to reply. I do want to say, always take what I say with a grain of salt b/c I am talking about my experience, I do not know your case very well at all - all the details, and I am not a medical practitioner.

OK - well as I'm sure you know now - all these medications to reduce stomach acid are awful and cause problems in the long run; and shouldn't be used regularly, or at all as far as I'm concerned. I know famotidine seems to be popular now as it is on some big group's anti-covid protocol c/o of it's anti-histamine effects, but you don't need that. There are other antihistimines if you want one. I suspect it is rather simple.. if you had kefir - and blocked all your stomach acid, you couldn't begin to digest it in your stomach.. so it probably did feel like it was sitting there! In addition, if you have any degree of SIBO (and from what I read most people with 'back up systems" do, the addition of the bacteria from the kefir would also make you worse.

I don't think you even need to get as fancy as having an allergen or histamine intolerance.. I think you just messed up your system with these meds. I'm not sure this indicates any problem with your bile.

I think if people are having 'heartburn', or reflux, using something like TUMS, (which is calcium carbonate) is better, even though it has some toxic crap in it, if you only use once in a while, it's much better than those other things, and you're getting some calcium. Or baking soda, can often provide some immediate relief - like 1/4 tsp stirred in glass of water. (but not until about 2 hours after eating protein).

Well, I think only chicken breast , applesauce and soda crackers or saltines as we call them in the U.S. is a pretty restrictive diet for 5 years, I'm not sure you need to be that extreme and would worry about other problems from that! I think the 'ray peat type diet' could really help you - are you familiar with that? I'm assuming you are since you are on this forum! I think his diet principles might help you. How long have you had these problems? Did they start after the acid reducing meds? If that is the case and it has not been long, you may be able to resolve things by just stopping those meds and some time. They could cause all the symptoms you have.

I think most of the time the restrictive diets like that work b/c the person has removed something that has been irritating them, and maybe they could increase to eating more things. The tricky thing is knowing what bothers you. Lots of people will argue about those things, but I know sometimes I have to eat less than perfect things b/c it seems to be the only thing I can eat. The saltines (white crackers) will not be popular here b/c they contain PUFAS (unless you can find a brand that doesn't) and the bad white enriched flour. I believe Ray Peat talks about the PUFA/sat fat ratio, so if you have to have some Pufas, at least you can offset with sat fat. I'm not sure why you need to decrease your fat in your diet.

I would avoid Kefir and any fermented foods, probiotics, until your symptoms are resolved. I realize many people here claim great help from probiotics.. I'm always curious to understand, and of course that is their experience. Many people speak highly of them. Have you tried any of the things people have recommended here, i.e. the enzymes?

I do not know of any evidence indicating that bile can irritate the lining of a healthy stomac

I do not know of any evidence indicating that bile can irritate the lining of a healthy stomach.

Oh - I can tell you first-hand that bile can not only irritate, but produce a nasty case of severe gastritis. The alkaline bile is like caustic lye to the acid loving stomach, and as my doctor described it - my stomach appears like it is 'rusting out' . And I'm not the only one who suffers this ill fate - it is not an uncommon among people with certain GI issues.

Bile is meant to be secreted into the duodenum, the proximal small intestine, which has an alkaline pH. It can reflux into the stomach - for a variety of; and in my case, probably a combination of problems creating a perfect storm. Not having a gallbladder makes me more susceptible to this, b/c my bile is not released in a nice controlled manner. Normally, it stores the bile and releases it in just the right amount in response to fat entering the duodenum. My bile duct drains directly into the the duodenum, and the bile just continuously drips out , as it is produced by the liver. So, often, it won't have anything to glom onto and emulsify - so it should keep going downstream. My small intestine scored in the bottom 4% of the motility scale (I realize these lab measure are prone to not always being exact - but I can verify that it does not do peristalsis well - if at all. Therefore, the bile doesn't get moved along. In addition I am hosting large colonies of bacteria in my small intestine - where they should not be. This adds to the already back up traffic and when things can't move forward, they move backwards.

On the other end of the spectrum, I can't put out a big bolus of bile in response to a high fat meal, or snack. Because all I can do is the same old, drip drip. So, I can get in trouble if I eat too much fat at once - which is easy to do. Then I (and people like me) have a situation of not being able to digest the fats well, causing further clogging up of the system :)

A normal person (with a gallbadder), will have their bile stored nicely in that organ when they are lying down to sleep, or just lying down to be lazy. The bile only squirts out when it is needed. People like me, we are drip, drip dripping all the time. So, people can help their acid reflux (into the esophagus) by not lying down after eating, by eating 2-3 hours before bed. I can't do anything to stop my bile being secreted, especially when I am sleeping, or trying to, and my intestines are trying to rest, this is prime time for it to flow up into my stomach. And, could be one of the reasons I wake up every morning in pain.

FYI - I have had this diagnosed via endoscopy - they can see the bile in the stomach, and also the nasty inflammation, also took biopsies of the lining and gastric tissue - which led them to conclude the bile was causing the damage to my stomach.

Prior to the illness that led to my gallbladder being removed (something I greatly regret) , I had no stomach issues, so I would say it was healthy. Bile is not meant to be in the stomach. It never made any sense to me to take bile salts as a supplement, because it needs to emulsify the fats in the small intestine - they wouldn't even work in the acidic stomach. And you'd have to time it right, with the right amount of fat.

Because I was desperate, I foolishly did try some some digestive enzymes with bile in them, and they made me vomit - which was one symptom I don't normally have. My stomach was not happy.

The one medication they try to this bile reflux problem is something that is supposed to coat the stomach and bind to the bile, kind of neutralizing it. It's like a liquid antacid - a thick liquid. So, when the goal is to keep bile out of the stomach and/or try to minimize the damage from what is already coming it - it does not seem wise to add more. And, as mentioned above - I don't think it would even work very well.

I do hear people say they take bile supplements and they help. I do hear people and some alternative type health care practitioners recommending them. Maybe they do help people who have healthy stomachs and GI tracts .. however, it one has those, why take bile supplements? But, everyone is different, and if they help people that's great.

But if I hear someone say they suspect bile reflux. the thought of taking a bile supplement into the stomach . makes me say : "ouch".

 

[OliviaD]

Would bile not make it worse since it could irritate the lining of the stomach ?

Yes. I would think so, and certainly if you are suspecting you are refluxing bile already (and it is already causing you pain). I know people claim they take bile supplements and they help them. And practitioners suggest them. I don't understand as it doesn't seem like a good idea 1. because bile is irritating to the stomach and enough over time can be damaging 2. bile is meant to emulsify fats in the duodenum. for it to be effective, it would have to make it through the acidic stomach to the nice alkaline small intestine, where it can work - AND at the same time your fats arrive. I'm not sure this happens, I've never seen any evidence it does. This doesn't mean there isn't any, just that I haven't seen it.

I'm not sure I mentioned this Hans, but I did have an endoscopy and they could visually see and measure bile in my stomach, and also see my 'inflamed, 'rusty' stomach , and with biopsies see the tissue damage and conclude it was the bile causing it. I did try some bile supplements for a few times, and they did make my stomach hurt. Then I tried a supplement with a bunch of enzymes and bile, and I threw up several times :) I would say they irritating my stomach :)

 

[A.R]

I never liked HCL - did not help me. Love your lemon water and enzymes. Keep doing them. I took for a long time and they gradually helped me so much, I did not need them. Now I use only occasionally. Things that helped me over time:

1) reducing PUFAS - Peat inspired eating BUT with food - not just juice and milk.
2) homemade food - rarely eating out and fresh foods not not canned or prepared foods - make from scratch.
3) d-limonene: this one: AWESOME for reflux!! I took everyday for a few months. Really helpful. I always have one box on me.

Nature's Way Heartburn Free w/ROH10® Lasting Relief, 10 Softgels https://a.co/d/ap5xnmS

4) Worked on my liver - coffee, aspirin (not everyday).
5) I drink about one pint of whole organic nonhomoginized milk daily - sometimes closer to a quart. Low and nonfat did not suit me.
6) Inner Defense from young living has also helped. I take/took maybe 2-3 times a week with my breakfast.

Really happy for you that you managed to fix your issues!

With the d limonene, did you always take it on a empty stomach? Also what type of symptoms did you get to realise you could start to taper off it?

 

[A.R]

Hi Hans - Hope you are hanging in there. I'm sorry it took me so long to reply. I do want to say, always take what I say with a grain of salt b/c I am talking about my experience, I do not know your case very well at all - all the details, and I am not a medical practitioner.

OK - well as I'm sure you know now - all these medications to reduce stomach acid are awful and cause problems in the long run; and shouldn't be used regularly, or at all as far as I'm concerned. I know famotidine seems to be popular now as it is on some big group's anti-covid protocol c/o of it's anti-histamine effects, but you don't need that. There are other antihistimines if you want one. I suspect it is rather simple.. if you had kefir - and blocked all your stomach acid, you couldn't begin to digest it in your stomach.. so it probably did feel like it was sitting there! In addition, if you have any degree of SIBO (and from what I read most people with 'back up systems" do, the addition of the bacteria from the kefir would also make you worse.

I don't think you even need to get as fancy as having an allergen or histamine intolerance.. I think you just messed up your system with these meds. I'm not sure this indicates any problem with your bile.

I think if people are having 'heartburn', or reflux, using something like TUMS, (which is calcium carbonate) is better, even though it has some toxic crap in it, if you only use once in a while, it's much better than those other things, and you're getting some calcium. Or baking soda, can often provide some immediate relief - like 1/4 tsp stirred in glass of water. (but not until about 2 hours after eating protein).

Well, I think only chicken breast , applesauce and soda crackers or saltines as we call them in the U.S. is a pretty restrictive diet for 5 years, I'm not sure you need to be that extreme and would worry about other problems from that! I think the 'ray peat type diet' could really help you - are you familiar with that? I'm assuming you are since you are on this forum! I think his diet principles might help you. How long have you had these problems? Did they start after the acid reducing meds? If that is the case and it has not been long, you may be able to resolve things by just stopping those meds and some time. They could cause all the symptoms you have.

I think most of the time the restrictive diets like that work b/c the person has removed something that has been irritating them, and maybe they could increase to eating more things. The tricky thing is knowing what bothers you. Lots of people will argue about those things, but I know sometimes I have to eat less than perfect things b/c it seems to be the only thing I can eat. The saltines (white crackers) will not be popular here b/c they contain PUFAS (unless you can find a brand that doesn't) and the bad white enriched flour. I believe Ray Peat talks about the PUFA/sat fat ratio, so if you have to have some Pufas, at least you can offset with sat fat. I'm not sure why you need to decrease your fat in your diet.

I would avoid Kefir and any fermented foods, probiotics, until your symptoms are resolved. I realize many people here claim great help from probiotics.. I'm always curious to understand, and of course that is their experience. Many people speak highly of them. Have you tried any of the things people have recommended here, i.e. the enzymes?



Oh - I can tell you first-hand that bile can not only irritate, but produce a nasty case of severe gastritis. The alkaline bile is like caustic lye to the acid loving stomach, and as my doctor described it - my stomach appears like it is 'rusting out' . And I'm not the only one who suffers this ill fate - it is not an uncommon among people with certain GI issues.

Bile is meant to be secreted into the duodenum, the proximal small intestine, which has an alkaline pH. It can reflux into the stomach - for a variety of; and in my case, probably a combination of problems creating a perfect storm. Not having a gallbladder makes me more susceptible to this, b/c my bile is not released in a nice controlled manner. Normally, it stores the bile and releases it in just the right amount in response to fat entering the duodenum. My bile duct drains directly into the the duodenum, and the bile just continuously drips out , as it is produced by the liver. So, often, it won't have anything to glom onto and emulsify - so it should keep going downstream. My small intestine scored in the bottom 4% of the motility scale (I realize these lab measure are prone to not always being exact - but I can verify that it does not do peristalsis well - if at all. Therefore, the bile doesn't get moved along. In addition I am hosting large colonies of bacteria in my small intestine - where they should not be. This adds to the already back up traffic and when things can't move forward, they move backwards.

On the other end of the spectrum, I can't put out a big bolus of bile in response to a high fat meal, or snack. Because all I can do is the same old, drip drip. So, I can get in trouble if I eat too much fat at once - which is easy to do. Then I (and people like me) have a situation of not being able to digest the fats well, causing further clogging up of the system :)

A normal person (with a gallbadder), will have their bile stored nicely in that organ when they are lying down to sleep, or just lying down to be lazy. The bile only squirts out when it is needed. People like me, we are drip, drip dripping all the time. So, people can help their acid reflux (into the esophagus) by not lying down after eating, by eating 2-3 hours before bed. I can't do anything to stop my bile being secreted, especially when I am sleeping, or trying to, and my intestines are trying to rest, this is prime time for it to flow up into my stomach. And, could be one of the reasons I wake up every morning in pain.

FYI - I have had this diagnosed via endoscopy - they can see the bile in the stomach, and also the nasty inflammation, also took biopsies of the lining and gastric tissue - which led them to conclude the bile was causing the damage to my stomach.

Prior to the illness that led to my gallbladder being removed (something I greatly regret) , I had no stomach issues, so I would say it was healthy. Bile is not meant to be in the stomach. It never made any sense to me to take bile salts as a supplement, because it needs to emulsify the fats in the small intestine - they wouldn't even work in the acidic stomach. And you'd have to time it right, with the right amount of fat.

Because I was desperate, I foolishly did try some some digestive enzymes with bile in them, and they made me vomit - which was one symptom I don't normally have. My stomach was not happy.

The one medication they try to this bile reflux problem is something that is supposed to coat the stomach and bind to the bile, kind of neutralizing it. It's like a liquid antacid - a thick liquid. So, when the goal is to keep bile out of the stomach and/or try to minimize the damage from what is already coming it - it does not seem wise to add more. And, as mentioned above - I don't think it would even work very well.

I do hear people say they take bile supplements and they help. I do hear people and some alternative type health care practitioners recommending them. Maybe they do help people who have healthy stomachs and GI tracts .. however, it one has those, why take bile supplements? But, everyone is different, and if they help people that's great.

But if I hear someone say they suspect bile reflux. the thought of taking a bile supplement into the stomach . makes me say : "ouch".

I feel really bad for you. What type of symptoms were you getting at the time that the doctors decided to remove your gallbladder?

 

[A.R]

Hello my name is Hans and I am currently 20 years old.

I have been suffering from chronic gastritis which I believe to have come from bile reflux for the past year. Along with that I have been chronically constipated and have had to almost eliminate fat completely from my diet.

I was wondering if anyone is experiencing something similar and could maybe suggest a more permanent solution.

The things I have tried which haven't worked are:

Gluten free
Low carb (hard to maintain and causes more pain)
Antibiotics(have me a white tongue and had zero effect on the pain)
Antifungals (caused severe symptoms)

Things that have worked:

Low Histamine (has worked to some degree)
Low fermented foods(Has worked quite well)
Diary free
Very low fat(has had the most effect)
Very low fiber(has had the most effect but constipates the heck out of me)

Hope everything gets better for you.

Have you tried the d limonene yet?

 

[Lollipop2]

Really happy for you that you managed to fix your issues!

With the d limonene, did you always take it on a empty stomach? Also what type of symptoms did you get to realise you could start to taper off it?

Thank you! Yes I always took d-limonene on an empty stomach. The symptoms? Well, I stopped having them: pain in upper stomach, reflux, etc.

 

[A.R]

Thank you! Yes I always took d-limonene on an empty stomach. The symptoms? Well, I stopped having them: pain in upper stomach, reflux, etc.

Thank you for sharing your experience. I’ve seen elsewhere on the forum other people have also shared their positive experiences in regards to d limonene.

 

[Lollipop2]

Thank you for sharing your experience. I’ve seen elsewhere on the forum other people have also shared their positive experiences in regards to d limonene.

I honestly think it is a pretty remarkable substance. Helps bile and gallbladder and liver and reflux and Bacterial infections in upper GI etc. etc.

 

[OliviaD]

I feel really bad for you. What type of symptoms were you getting at the time that the doctors decided to remove your gallbladder?

Oh, thank you; you are sweet. Of course I'm not trying to gain sympathy - but I do share what I've experienced and learned to help others. I would not have so easily had an organ removed if I was here now, or had the ability to talk with someone like me now - who knows, maybe I would have anyway, but I would have tried a lot of things first.

I am in the U.S. and I also was part of the 'medical-scientific' cartel while this was happening - I didn't question them at all. I was working on my PhD at a medical school, fully indoctrinated :) (see there is hope for anyone). I was always very healthy and was very active at the time; which perhaps was part of my problem - eventually. I ran, up to 1/2 marathons, did longer distance biking events, and mini triathlons. I didn't really train very hard for any of this, but did enjoy it - I got outside and I was in great shape - I looked great. I started having episodes of nausea and vomiting, and some R upper quadrant and upper back pain; that now, seems like nothing. They would last a couple of days and go away. After 6 months or so, I had longer episode, and would not be able to eat much except saltines for a week. This prompted a visit to a walk in clinic, as I didn't even have a regular MD. B/c of the tenderness and upper back pain (which is supposedly typical of GB problems), they did an U.S., and said I had polyps. I never head of GB polyps. I wasn't keen on having surgery, so I decided to do nothing.

I continued to have the same problems, and after ~ 6 more months my internal med doctor sent me to a surgeon who said "just take the thing out, it's easy - and your troubles will be over. No one ever questioned my horrific diet and extreme level of stress, and I had no real work up or lab tests for anything else. The surgeon thought the polyps could be acting like a stone and blocking the duct. Another physician later told me that the symptoms I was having weren't typical of a GB stones/blockage. While it is easy to blame the MDs, ultimately I realize I really can only blame myself for trusting the system without question and for not taking charge of my own healthcare. I think I had that sense of invincibility that comes with being young - I had never been sick, and had been abusing my body most of my adult life. We get away with it when we are young.

There weren't online forums (that I knew of) and all the resources available now. As much as I curse the internet at times - it is wonderful to see so many young people here, (and all ages) , talking about these things.

Within days after the surgery I developed really bad mid and lower abdomen pain. It was constant, and really bad, I would be on the floor curled up in a fetal position. My nausea and vomiting did disappear :), although that didn't seem so bad! 4 months later. I was having black tarry stools (upper GI bleeding sign) but the internist told me I was constipated. 8 months later I had a GI referral, who did a hemacult , test for blood in stool, which was positive, so I had an emergency colonoscopy and endoscopy to find the source of bleeding. They didn't seem to. I asked this foreign speaking doctor why I, a healthy woman, would suddenly be bleeding from somewhere in my upper GI tract, and where was the source? He didn't seem to know, but told me a proton pump inhibitor would now cure the problem. You can imagine how that worked out :)

I can only assume that something was damaged during that surgery, maybe they cut the small intestine, that's what I think. And apparently surgeries are often how bacteria are introduced into the small intestine. I don't know - I'll never know, and I have not been able to get one doctor to agree to what I think is obvious - that something happened with the surgery. I imagine they were/are afraid I would sue the surgeon. I think these laparascopic surgeries are sometimes worse than open ones. It looks good on the outside - but inside they are shoving tubes inside and moving them around and I don't think they can see a lot of what they are doing. I don't know if it matters any more, but I just want to feel better :)