How Much/What Source Thiamine to Start Off With ??

[DMF]

For excess serotonin in the body, I don't know where to begin in terms of safe (minimal) effective dosage, what form (brand?)
Liquid - capsule - powder...??

 

[Blossom]

I’m going to tag @mostlylurking on this one for you.

 

[mostlylurking]

For excess serotonin in the body, I don't know where to begin in terms of safe (minimal) effective dosage, what form (brand?)
Liquid - capsule - powder...??

@Blossom (thanks for the tag)
@DMF My personal experience with thiamine supplementation was mainly with thiamine hcl. It seems to have the longest track record and is considered a "safe" supplement. It tastes terrible but you get used to it over time. I did try TTFD thiamine, but I reacted badly to it because I was deficient in glutathione so I went back to using thiamine hcl. I also tried the sublingual thiamine mononitrate but I didn't like how I reacted to it (worse short term memory); this could have been psychosomatic because of the "nitrate" part of the name. I'm very sensitive to nitrates. I've taken high dose thiamine hcl for almost 2 years and am very happy with the results.

I use the pure powder form of thiamine hcl (sold in bulk by bulksupplement.com, also available from purebulk.com); you can measure out exactly the amount your want so increasing your dose over a few weeks is pretty easy. Get a little digital scale so you can weigh out little doses; also get a set of tiny measuring spoons to make dosing fast/easy for daily use.

I was taking 100mg of thiamine hcl 2Xday for years, but I took it with orange juice which canceled out the thiamine's effect. When I found myself in serious trouble due to thiamine deficiency/functional blockage, I tried taking about 300mg of thiamine hcl with WATER and within 45 minutes, all my lactic acidosis inflammation pain disappeared and my body temp increased a full degree up to normal (98.6). This is how I discerned that I had a problem with thiamine deficiency/functional blockage. I spent the next 4 months slowly increasing my dose of thiamine hcl from 300mg 2Xday to 1 gram 2Xday. At first the next higher dose would resolve my symptoms but after 7-10 days, the dose would not work so well so I would increase it again. I relied on my own response to the vitamin. I also supplemented with magnesium glycinate and several other b vitamins (not high doses of the other b's). If you are deficient in magnesium you may have more trouble taking thiamine hcl. I was deficient in it and I still take a pretty high dose of magnesium glycinate today.

Thiamine hcl has to be taken in higher doses than some other forms of thiamine (TTFD) because it doesn't get through the gut barrier very efficiently. Dr. Costantini's website includes comparison information of oral thiamine hcl vs injection thiamine hcl. I found the information on his website very helpful and informative (therapy, FAQs, and patient videos).

I hope you find this helpful.

 

[mostlylurking]

For excess serotonin in the body, I don't know where to begin in terms of safe (minimal) effective dosage, what form (brand?)
Liquid - capsule - powder...??

I need to add something. There are several high serotonin foods that you will need to avoid, at least for a while. Bananas and pineapple are on the list to avoid. They used to really mess me up. Now I can eat bananas without any problems.

from 18 Foods That Contain Serotonin | Livestrong.com Ignore the hype about how great serotonin is but do pay attention to the list of foods:

• Bananas
• Kiwi
• Plantains
• Pineapple
• Passion fruit
• Pomegranate
• Strawberries
• Plums

also:

• Chicory
• Chinese cabbage
• Green onion
• Lettuce
• Peppers
• Potatoes
• Spinach
• Tomatoes
• Wild rice
• Hazelnuts

 

[DMF]

@Blossom (thanks for the tag)
@DMF My personal experience with thiamine supplementation was mainly with thiamine hcl. It seems to have the longest track record and is considered a "safe" supplement. It tastes terrible but you get used to it over time. I did try TTFD thiamine, but I reacted badly to it because I was deficient in glutathione so I went back to using thiamine hcl. I also tried the sublingual thiamine mononitrate but I didn't like how I reacted to it (worse short term memory); this could have been psychosomatic because of the "nitrate" part of the name. I'm very sensitive to nitrates. I've taken high dose thiamine hcl for almost 2 years and am very happy with the results.

I use the pure powder form of thiamine hcl (sold in bulk by bulksupplement.com, also available from purebulk.com); you can measure out exactly the amount your want so increasing your dose over a few weeks is pretty easy. Get a little digital scale so you can weigh out little doses; also get a set of tiny measuring spoons to make dosing fast/easy for daily use.

I was taking 100mg of thiamine hcl 2Xday for years, but I took it with orange juice which canceled out the thiamine's effect. When I found myself in serious trouble due to thiamine deficiency/functional blockage, I tried taking about 300mg of thiamine hcl with WATER and within 45 minutes, all my lactic acidosis inflammation pain disappeared and my body temp increased a full degree up to normal (98.6). This is how I discerned that I had a problem with thiamine deficiency/functional blockage. I spent the next 4 months slowly increasing my dose of thiamine hcl from 300mg 2Xday to 1 gram 2Xday. At first the next higher dose would resolve my symptoms but after 7-10 days, the dose would not work so well so I would increase it again. I relied on my own response to the vitamin. I also supplemented with magnesium glycinate and several other b vitamins (not high doses of the other b's). If you are deficient in magnesium you may have more trouble taking thiamine hcl. I was deficient in it and I still take a pretty high dose of magnesium glycinate today.

Thiamine hcl has to be taken in higher doses than some other forms of thiamine (TTFD) because it doesn't get through the gut barrier very efficiently. Dr. Costantini's website includes comparison information of oral thiamine hcl vs injection thiamine hcl. I found the information on his website very helpful and informative (therapy, FAQs, and patient videos).

I hope you find this helpful.

Where to purchase/What Brand is good, reliable?- Whole Foods? Vitamin Mart?

 

[mostlylurking]

Where to purchase - Whole Foods? Vitamin Mart?

Bulksupplements.com, Purebulk.com.

 

[exile]

If you actually think it’s serotonin why not just take Cyproheptadine which is what Ray recommends as an anti-serotonin drug. I think it can bring down other stress hormones like cortisol as well.

 

[Puffyjacket]

@mostlylurking is B1 with OJ a problem? I seem to be getting good results with it. I just use a relatively unknown brand B1 capsule, which seem to boost my brain energy by a good margin.

 

[Nokoni]

It tastes terrible

Amen to that. I took the powder for years but eventually could no longer get it past my palate.

I switched to allithiamine. Only downside is it's more expensive. But if you figure the cost on a "per absorbed milligram" basis I'd bet it's not actually any more expensive (though I have not done the calculations).

Also if you want higher dosage, it may be that the HCL is ineffective. For many chemicals that are poorly absorbed, absorption percentage falls off with increasing dosage. As an extreme example if 10% is absorbed with a low dose, but only 5% is absorbed with twice that dose, you would not be getting any more by doubling the dose. Allithiamine absorbs well so I can get the carbonic anhydrase inhibitor effect at higher doses without resorting to injections, as would be necessary with HCL.

 

[mostlylurking]

Amen to that. I took the powder for years but eventually could no longer get it past my palate.

I switched to allithiamine. Only downside is it's more expensive. But if you figure the cost on a "per absorbed milligram" basis I'd bet it's not actually any more expensive (though I have not done the calculations).

Also if you want higher dosage, it may be that the HCL is ineffective. For many chemicals that are poorly absorbed, absorption percentage falls off with increasing dosage. As an extreme example if 10% is absorbed with a low dose, but only 5% is absorbed with twice that dose, you would not be getting any more by doubling the dose. Allithiamine absorbs well so I can get the carbonic anhydrase inhibitor effect at higher doses without resorting to injections, as would be necessary with HCL.

I agree that there are downsides to each type of thiamine that is available. I think it is important for people to learn about the different types and experiment to find what works for them.

TTFD is the synthetic counterpart of Allithiamine which occurs naturally in garlic:
Thiamine tetrahydrofurfuryl disulfide: a little known therapeutic agent - PubMed

Although I have not tried Allithiamine, (perhaps I should), I was unable to tolerate TTFD because I was deficient in glutathione because of the long term physical stress I've experienced from lead poisoning. TTFD (and perhaps also Allithiamine?) utilizes glutathione in its chemical process in the body. The thiamine hcl has been so effective counteracting my symptoms of lead poisoning that my glutathione status is now in the normal range (blood test). But the lead poisoning is still with me and would deplete my glutathione again (if I stop the thiamine hcl) so I'm hesitant to try a TTFD/Allithiamine type of thiamine which would also put a drain on what glutathione I have.

I'm a big fan of Dr. Costantini's work. He always used thiamine hcl for his Parkinson's Disease patients; some had taken it for more than 7 years without negative effects. Although Dr. Costantini passed away in 2020, the information about his work is still available on his website.

 

[Nokoni]

Allithiamine?) utilizes glutathione

I can't answer that, but clearly anyone with a known glutathione issue should probably research first. In your case it might very well be best to just stick with HCL. If it ain't broke...

 

[mostlylurking]

I can't answer that, but clearly anyone with a known glutathione issue should probably research first. In your case it might very well be best to just stick with HCL. If it ain't broke...

I've tried TTFD and also sublingual thiamine mononitrate and I keep coming back to the hcl variety. It does work for me. Not broke (thank goodness for that!).

 

[Vins7]

I've tried TTFD and also sublingual thiamine mononitrate and I keep coming back to the hcl variety. It does work for me. Not broke (thank goodness for that!).

Did you heal your gut issues and bloating with this treatment, right?

 

[mostlylurking]

Did you heal your gut issues and bloating with this treatment, right?

I healed my gut issues with thiamine hcl, plus a healthy diet made up principally of dairy, fruit, gelatin, cooked mushrooms, lots of cooked mushrooms. I think the magnesium glycinate helped too. The thiamine hcl massively improved my digestive tract, including my stomach acid and peristalsis.

 

[Vins7]

I healed my gut issues with thiamine hcl, plus a healthy diet made up principally of dairy, fruit, gelatin, cooked mushrooms, lots of cooked mushrooms. I think the magnesium glycinate helped too. The thiamine hcl massively improved my digestive tract, including my stomach acid and peristalsis.

Inspiring experience. So, do you eat a starch free diet?

 

[mostlylurking]

Inspiring experience. So, do you eat a starch free diet?

I'm gluten sensitive so I don't eat grains, maybe a little oatmeal once in a while. I do eat white potatoes 2-3 times a week. That's about it for starch. I take it back; I eat a little white rice once in a while, maybe 2Xmonth.

 

[Vins7]

I'm gluten sensitive so I don't eat grains, maybe a little oatmeal once in a while. I do eat white potatoes 2-3 times a week. That's about it for starch. I take it back; I eat a little white rice once in a while, maybe 2Xmonth.

Omg, I can't go without starch, I crave It 24/7.
I wonder if these cravings are due to the microbiota since they don't occur to me when I was younger, before I had taken four diferent rounds of antibiotics.

 

[mostlylurking]

Omg, I can't go without starch, I crave It 24/7.
I wonder if these cravings are due to the microbiota since they don't occur to me when I was younger, before I had taken four diferent rounds of antibiotics.

Maybe you're onto something.... My gut got really messed up after three rounds of various antibiotics summer of 2020 (bladder infection). The Bactrim antibiotic blocked my thiamine function; I was already low in it because of the heavy metal poisoning so I really got slammed by the bactrim. I was very sick for months. There are a lot of antibiotics that work by blocking thiamine function to kill the bacteria that need it to survive.

There's this:

SIBO, IBS, and Constipation: Unrecognized Thiamine Deficiency? - Hormones Matter

Is it possible that small intestinal bacterial overgrowth (SIBO) is simply a symptom of an underlying vitamin B1 or thiamine deficiency?

www.hormonesmatter.com

and this:

Thiamine and the Microbiome - Hormones Matter

Health depends on the 70-100 trillion single-celled organisms that live in our intestines.

www.hormonesmatter.com

I got well, including my gut function, when I high dosed thiamine hcl. For me that meant 1 gram of thiamine hcl 2Xday. I also take magnesium glycinate and I consume a pretty healthy diet that is not high in starch. It's more high in dairy and gelatin and mushrooms. I let the gut bacteria work it out for themselves. I think the high dose thiamine hcl improved the intestine environment and the healthy gut bacteria recolonized where they belong.

I did try the TTFD type of thiamine but I reacted badly to it because my glutathione was low due to the lead poisoning. So I stuck with thiamine hcl.

Please note that a big part of normalizing my gut function had to do with normalizing my stomach acid. Thiamine supplementation fixed my low stomach acid. When I got up to the 2 grams/day of thiamine hcl, suddenly I craved beef steak so I ate them maybe twice/week for several weeks. They were wonderful and I was able to digest the meat for the first time in decades.

 

[nobody]

I need to add something. There are several high serotonin foods that you will need to avoid, at least for a while. Bananas and pineapple are on the list to avoid. They used to really mess me up. Now I can eat bananas without any problems.

from 18 Foods That Contain Serotonin | Livestrong.com Ignore the hype about how great serotonin is but do pay attention to the list of foods:

• Bananas
• Kiwi
• Plantains
• Pineapple
• Passion fruit
• Pomegranate
• Strawberries
• Plums

also:

• Chicory
• Chinese cabbage
• Green onion
• Lettuce
• Peppers
• Potatoes
• Spinach
• Tomatoes
• Wild rice
• Hazelnuts

How did pineapple mess you up? I have been eating 1-3 whole ones each day. Maybe I am lacking the self awareness to notice the damage it's causing. I'm utterly addicted to these honeyglow pineapples... I wish I was kidding.

 

[mostlylurking]

How did pineapple mess you up? I have been eating 1-3 whole ones each day. Maybe I am lacking the self awareness to notice the damage it's causing. I'm utterly addicted to these honeyglow pineapples... I wish I was kidding.

It made me attach myself to the ceiling using my fingernails. I was keyed up, could not relax, could not sleep. High serotonin reaction.

Serotonin syndrome-Serotonin syndrome - Symptoms & causes - Mayo Clinic

Learn how certain drug interactions or an increase in the dose of certain drugs can cause serotonin levels to rise to potentially dangerous levels.

www.mayoclinic.org

If you don't have any symptoms, maybe you are clearing the serotonin OK. I wasn't able to clear it because I was thiamine deficient.