Improving Liver Function Before Going Full Peat? Dealing With Abdominal Fat

[cantstoppeating]

And to return to the topic.

I have a similar concern and I've started to include caffeine, taurine, glycine and vitamin K2 to aid liver function before adding niacinamide and aspirin. Haidut has posted great info on this already, checkout his post history.

 

[charlie]

I've done the k2/caffeine combo for 2 weeks and I lost an inch for the first time in a year, and a year ago it was from severe calorie restriction.

I've started with 400mg caffeine and now can take 700-800mg per day. The caffeine naturally cut my calorie requirement from 3500-4000kcal to 2500-3000kcal I think because my liver is getting better and I can burn carbs instead of storing or wasting them.

I agree with Brian, you should only use K2 MK-4. I also had LE Super K but studies show too much K1 can be bad so I stopped.

I have been using peat ideas for a year and improved a few very important things in my health (temps, pulse and other stuff). I think the effects of k2/caffeine have been quick because I already felt better. It could take more time for someone who has just started.

nikotrope, are you still progressing with this combo?

 

[nikotrope]

I just moved from France to Japan so I was very busy and stressed and it was (and still is) difficult to be strict about diet. I don't have vitamin k2 anymore and have to order more. I still use caffeine but smaller doses because I have lots of things to do and forget to take it.

But to my surprise I eat lots of junk food and my weight stays the same. Normally I gain one or two pounds as soon as I eat this way and can't lose it afterwards. That's to be expected for someone with a liver able to detox efficiently junk food, so I think k2/caffeine made my liver better even if I am not taking them regularly anymore.

My wife is going to start working next week so she will not drag me to restaurants (I am weak when it comes to Japanese food!) and I will be able to resume my usual diet. I will report on my progress when I receive vitamin k2.

 

[charlie]

thanks nikotrope! Looking forward to trying it out myself.

 

[panda]

Well, the K2 is here (Carlson 5mg), so I took one around 1PM, was planning to take another one at night, but not sure if I should start easily with the K2 or if it doesn't matter if I start with 1,5,10,25 or 45mg?
I felt some fatigue after taking it, but of course I don't know if it's the K2, especially since I'm tapering benzodiazepines (clonazepam), and the fing withdrawal process of the benzos creates all kind of strange symptoms. I'm pretty sure the benzos are a big part of the problem, but I'm doing what I can at the same time, tapering (and getting rid of them eventually) while doing some other things with supplements/food to improve my health, seems like a good strategy. I know improving my sugar intake has helped a lot with my anxiety and stress levels.
I have been increasing my caffeine intake to near 400mg levels (but not coffee, is it the same as long as I increase caffeine?), and I feel better. My hope is that now with the K2, things will be even better, but I'll wait 2 weeks to report.
Any advise about the caffeine and K2 levels will be appreciated. Any other supplement/food that may help with this process?

Well, 2 weeks into the K2, I've taking 15mg (3 doses) most days, and 10mg some, mixed results so far. Nothing really interesting to talk about.

Probably I need to increase my caffeine intake, I bought some caffeine pills and I'm trying to take at least 2 200mg daily. The thing is, I have had some panic attacks this last week and also some fatigue, I don't know if the K2 or the caffeine has something to do with them.

Also, first I stopped the niacinamide, but because of the PA, I started to taking it again, since I think it helps with my anxiety and to be honest, it's not clear the niacinamide is causing me to increase weight/waist.

As I said in the post above, since I'm tapering clonazepam, this onset of panic attacks may be just for the tapering, but it's pretty hard to tell.

Some days have been bad, and some others really great, but the great days may have more to do with the windows one get when tapering and not because of the K2/caffeine.

On the weigh, waist issue, I went up to 234 lbs/43 in, and then down to 230/42 in, and I'm staying within that range.

So far I can't tell if the K2 is helping at all, maybe I need a bigger dose?

TBH, I'm struggling to do the same things day after day. I want to do it, but the PA are a game changer for me, and make me made all kind of changes to try to stop/minimize them.

Some things I'm kind of sure have helped:

1) I think I've solved my insomnia problems, I even made a blog (Spanish) about it, because I was too happy about it (http://vivirahora.com/creo-que-he-resue ... -insomnia/). Since I turned off the wifi and cellphones at home, I have been sleeping more than 7 hours a day consistently, before that I was sleeping less than 6 hours every day.

2) I'm discovering that a diet of a raw carrot plus cheese sticks (and probably eating less calories overall), it's pretty good for my stomach, and the days I've felt great, coincide with my stomach being pretty happy.

So, I'm still lost about how to solve the weight/waist increase riddle. It looks like I'm not gaining any more, so that's good.

I need to find a way to clearly monitor things, so I know what's helping and what it isn't. I'm going to continue with the K2/caffeine, especially with the caffeine, since I think it helps with the fatigue, probably with the caffeine/aspirin/niacinamide/b-complex combo for energy, some days I'll skip the aspirin to see if it makes a difference with the energy levels.

I will continue posting, thanks for reading.

 

[Blossom]

Thanks for the update panda.

 

[tara]

Hi panda,
Just wanted to comment on another factor, in case you are not already onto it (sorry if I've missed you posting on this).
Panic attacks often (maybe always?) involve lower than optimal CO2 levels. Acute hyperventilation can trigger panic attacks in susceptible people. Chronic unaware hyperventilation is common and can increase the risk of tipping over in to acute hyperventilation/panic attack.
Many of Peat's ideas involve raising cellular CO2 production, which is great.
But in the meantime, it may be possible to reduce susceptibility to panic attacks, and possibly interrupt them, by using reduced breathing exercises/bag-breathing/other tactics.
You can check for mouth and/or chest-breathing habits, and change them. I found this fairly easy using mechanical aids in the beginning.
You can practice bag-breathing and/or short breath holding a few times a day, and maybe even when you get a warning that a panic attack is beginning.
You can learn Buteyko or pranayama or some meditation style that encourages low, relaxed breathing.
For me, when I had incidences of my my breathing getting more out of control, I had to move to get it calm again - gentle walk/housework etc - I personally couldn't do it lying still in bed once it got bad.

For me, I also think increasing my intake of alkaline minerals helped. I'm guessing that's because I was partly hyperventilating as an alkalising protective tactic against an overly acidic state of my tissues. I expect you are probably already watching your mineral intake, so this may not apply to you. (Testing Uph with pH test strips is a fairly easy extra check on this factor.)

 

[panda]

I have being doing the bag breathing Tara. Thanks for reminding me about it, maybe I should start making a little experiment about bag breathing times per day vs panic attacks; it would be nice to find a correlation and possibly a way to prevent them.

For those of you who have read about bag breathing, how many times per day is too much?

 

[tara]

I have being doing the bag breathing Tara. Thanks for reminding me about it, maybe I should start making a little experiment about bag breathing times per day vs panic attacks; it would be nice to find a correlation and possibly a way to prevent them.

For those of you who have read about bag breathing, how many times per day is too much?

Sounds good.
I have not done the bag breathing much, but my understanding is you can do it until it starts to feel uncomfortable each time, and that you can do it many times a day it you have the time for it. Trying to push beyond comfort on any particular attempt might possibly provoke a panic attack by pushing CO2 up too fast in one go (this can apparently happen with Buteyko methods for people prone to panic attacks). Make sure you have fuel on board when you begin - it can make low blood sugar drop even more.

I'd also be interested in whether other members have hit limits on how often is useful.

For me, retraining mouth- and chest- breathing was the low-hanging fruit.

 

[4peatssake]

I think Peat says longer than 2 minutes can produce a stress response. I don't remember exactly as I use meditation rather than bag breathing but there are lots of threads discussing the benefits of bag breathing.

 

[nikotrope]

I need to find a way to clearly monitor things, so I know what's helping and what it isn't. I'm going to continue with the K2/caffeine, especially with the caffeine, since I think it helps with the fatigue, probably with the caffeine/aspirin/niacinamide/b-complex combo for energy, some days I'll skip the aspirin to see if it makes a difference with the energy levels.

What and how much do you eat each day? All the supplements you take will raise your metabolism and if you don't eat enough it will raise stress hormones and liver function will not improve.

If your sleep and energy continue to improve then you are on the right path. Tweaking everything to see what works or not is a long journey though.

 

[SQu]

I think RP answered a question on panic attacks in the 20 questions thread around December I think. I'll check.
Edit: yes he did and it is about carbon dioxide. It's '20 questions with ray peat ' question 2.

 

[charlie]

I can barely handle 100 mgs of caffeine spread through out the day right now. Might even have to drop it down a little more.

 

[4peatssake]

I can barely handle 100 mgs of caffeine spread through out the day right now. Might even have to drop it down a little more.

I think I'd die!

 

[messtafarian]

Charlie I can't handle near as much caffeine either so I switched to this stuff called teecino. I really like it. It doesn't taste "just like coffee" but it is the closest I have ever tried and it's much tastier than decaf. I switched instead of giving up on the coffee ritual since the cup, with sugar and milk and glycine, is such a nice carrier for the other ingredients :).

http://teeccino.com/about/35/Teeccino's ... ients.html

 

[Brian]

I've been taking two doses per day of 400mg of caffeine after meals for over a week. The first day only I felt a little jitter. Once I took the caffeine a couple hours after a meal and felt a little stressed. But other than that I really don't feel anything at all, maybe a little more alert (I was already feeling fine in that regard). I think I notice a little more saliva production too.

I have never been a regular caffeine consumer before this. Is this normal to not really feel an effect? Or does this say something positive or negative about the state of my liver and other organs?

 

[charlie]

messtafarian, i am actually using caffeine powder for now but plan on trying again coffee later in the future. I will check out the teecino, thank you.

Yesterday I did 65 mgs of caffeine spread throughout the day and that seems about the limit for me right now.

 

[panda]

What and how much do you eat each day? All the supplements you take will raise your metabolism and if you don't eat enough it will raise stress hormones and liver function will not improve.

If your sleep and energy continue to improve then you are on the right path. Tweaking everything to see what works or not is a long journey though.

Of course I like eating, but for some reason I don't feel that great after eating. One of the things I liked about intermittent fasting was the fact that I felt good after fasting for a while.

It's something like this: I'm hungry, so I eat, after eating I don't feel that good so I fast, after fasting I feel great, and the great feeling makes me hungry, so I eat, and repeat.

Of course, I don't always feel bad after eating, so I guess, I should be very aware about what kind of food made me feel bad.

Yesterday I didn't take any Vitamin K (just to see if I felt different) and I felt great, this morning I took some K (Super K) and now I feel some fatigue. Both days I took aspirin (325mg), niacinamide(500mg) and caffeine (200mg) in the morning with orange juice, salt, milk and a banana. So, the only difference was the Super K.

I also did the bag breathing 3 times yesterday, haven't done it today, but I'm planning on doing it 3 times today too.

I understand that if you don't eat enough you'll raise your stress hormones. But at the same time, I'm guessing carrying a lot of extra weight must be stressful to the body, am I wrong?

Probably the problem is what's "enough", I'm trying to eat every time I'm hungry, but sometimes my brain send the signal to keep eating even when I may be already full. How do you guys deal with this?

 

[Peata]

Now that i've increased my caffeine, I'm "afraid" not to eat regularly, and i make sure i have food in my stomach before the caffeine, whether the caffeine is from the morning latte or caffeine pills. I'm up to about 500 mg. caffeine total each day now.

i've also determined what was causing those weird feelings related to eating sometimes. it has to do with not taking in enough calories -not just daily total calories, but let's say i go til noon on only a few hundred. then, when i eat, i will get those weird feelings - weakness, lightheaded, stronger faster pulse, and an uncomfortable, strange feeling inside that's hard to describe. it just sucks. Anyway, i've noticed since i started the caffeine experiment and have been careful to keep up with eating, i no longer get any of that. But yesterday i accidently went too long on too little calories, and sure enough, the annoying crappy feeling came back. this feeling was the same i felt when i took pregnenolone btw, only it was a lot worse then. I figure something to do with cortisol. metabolism.

Back to the caffeine, when I take a pill (i'm up to 175 mg. in a dose, by spilling out some of the powder in 200 mg capsule first) i feel the effect in 45 min to one hour. Between that first and second hour, i'm probably feeling some anxiety in my chest, even a little panic. Despite food. By the third hour, i'm OK. But today i took 1 g. Taurine with the caffeine and the anxiety feeling in the chest is much lessened. i pretty much just feel energy. i'm also keeping up food as i feel i need it. i really don't want to harm myself with raising stress hormones, hence the food with the caffeine and gradual raising of caffeine levels.

i feel good though.

 

[thebigpeatowski]

WOW! I find this thread fascinating, we are all so different in regards to our food/supplement tolerance. It certainly highlights the need to be cautious when making blanket statements and recommendations.

CRON-0 tells me that I'm ingesting on average over 500 mg. of caffeine (from coffee) every day. When I first started Peating I had constant liver pain, major digestive issues and massive weight gain. All of that is gone now, thank goodness, but it took a full year...so certainly not a quick fix. Perhaps if I had improved my liver function PRIOR to going full Peat, I might have escaped the weight gain and digestive duress, who knows?

This winter I have been eating waaaay more food than I ever could before and I'm not gaining. Also, haven't experienced my usual winter blues.

As far as my own experiment goes, RP has been correct about everything.