IP6 For Iron Chelation

[4peatssake]

Many of the criticisms of gbolduev are hard to refute.
But let me focus on why I kinda liked him.

I think he has some extreme passion for and intelligence about the world of health.
Sure, a surplus of ego.
A deficit of Peat reading (it would seem),
etc.
And, sure, we can mock the applicability of his credentials, stock trader, to health.

But...ask yourself...
why would a guy like gbolduev be pulled into intense debates
with our illustrious haidut
about the actions and effects of minerals at a cellular level?

I would note that haidut seemed to enjoy the exchange himself.

Seems to me both of those guys have a lot of passion
for a subject area that is extremely obscure for most of us.

gbolduev seemed absolutely convinced he knew what was right in that arena.
That, actually, was something that made me laugh at first
and distrust him.
But...after following him and haidut's talks a while,
I kinda went past the bluster and ego and overstatement
and said to myself:
you know...this guy really seems to have delved deeply into cellular mineral biochemistry.
He may be completely wrong,
but...he really seemed to me to have spent a long time studying his particular Eckian approach,
and, apparently, to have spent a long time looking at very specific Eckian labs
(and his own even more specific labs, like ABGs.)

I would like to have explored his ideas,
and how they might fit into Peat's ideas,
more carefully.

And it is interesting and maybe telling
that gbolduev was attracted to this Ray Peat forum
even though he strongly disagreed with a lot of Peat's ideas.
To my mind,
that shows a kind of unique potentiality for this forum:
it should be all about inquiry, questioning, breaking down barriers, making connections.
And Peat's ideas send out that kind of signal, that kind of allure--
of freedom, free inquiry, exploring new ideas, questioning accepted ideas--
even Peat's.

That is the potential of Peat and this forum.
I am sad that our forum could not find a way to be more relaxed toward and tolerant of
a somewhat difficult poster like gbolduev.
By making him feel unwelcome and pushing him out,
have we accomplished the moderator's goal--
"we endeavor here to have Peat's views clearly articulated and discussed"...?

I must confess, to my mind a rather uninspiring, timid mission statement.
Does "discussion" include real and vital challenges to Peat's ideas?
Or just promotion, clarification, and understanding?
Are we here simply to get Peat Programmed?

gbolduev was different.
I can't say we demonstrated much spunk or vision or daring
in how we deal with difference.

Wow, narouz. You spin a mighty fine yarn. Unfortunately, most of your tale is fiction.

Here are the facts:

gbolduev has never once been warned for any posts to the forum. You brought him into this. If I were him, I would have ignored the brief exchange I had with you on this thread. In my mind, it had absolutely nothing to do with him and it's unfortunate he didn't recognize that from the get go and avoided the argument.

If you want to point fingers at anyone for making him feel unwelcome, I suggest you look squarely at yourself. It is you who have insinuated that he may not be welcome here. I have never once said that nor has anyone on the moderating team.

It is you who used incendiary terms like the Peat Anti-Christ or Peat Infidel in reference to him. Among the members of the forum's moderating team that is not at all how he has been viewed. In fact, he's never been discussed among us insofar as him causing any sort of problem. Rather his contributions have inspired conversations and possibilities that the forum administration is currently exploring.

So the suggestion that the big bad authoritarian forum administration has succeeded in forcing him out, is false. If he chooses to leave over a personal quarrel you have with me, it will be too bad. But it's ultimately his choice.

I was already on record on another thread saying I had little issue with gboldeuv's posts and meant it.

When I did answer his post directly on this thread after he chose to comment, I mentioned the one thing he has said that caused me pause. The comment I was referring to was him saying that he didn't know how Ray "could sleep at night" giving people nutritional advice. I used his own words that he was "a stock trader (I said broker, my bad), not an MD" to illustrate the irony of him finding it OK for him to provide nutritional advice to others but questioned Peat for doing the same.

I stand by those remarks and was surprised by the emotional response it elicited from him as I expected a more measured response than to suddenly characterize the forum as "Zombie Peatland." :?

Both you and he took my remarks to mean I was criticizing his credentials which I would never do. I would never consider a person's "credentials" as the basis upon which to consider their level of intelligence or emotional maturity. It comes downs to what a person says and does. And I don't judge you or him either although I may disagree with your point of view. You are doing what you are doing and experiencing what you are experiencing, just as I am, just as he is - just as everyone here is.

How anyone responds to a situation is up to them. Knee jerk emotional reactions tell a story but developing an ability to ponder and explore one's inner terrain in emotional balance yields more fruitful results in my experience.

The truth of the matter and the issue all along is that the forum is not going to allow troublemakers or people who wish to disparage Ray Peat to dominate the conversations of the forum. The only person I am aware of to put bgoldeuv in that group - is you.

 

[narouz]

Unfortunately, most of your tale is fiction...If you want to point fingers at anyone for making him feel unwelcome, I suggest you look squarely at yourself. It is you who have insinuated that he may not be welcome here.

Since you bring up fiction...
you're seriously asserting I was the one who made gbolduev feel unwelcome?

 

[4peatssake]

Unfortunately, most of your tale is fiction...If you want to point fingers at anyone for making him feel unwelcome, I suggest you look squarely at yourself. It is you who have insinuated that he may not be welcome here.

Since you bring up fiction...
you're seriously asserting I was the one who made gbolduev feel unwelcome?

I suggested you look at yourself, yes.
I didn't call him the "Peat Anti-Christ" and"Peat Infidel".
The first time I mentioned him by name was to say I had very little problem with this posts. The only one's I have issue with are those that attack Ray Peat's character, not his viewpoint.

Rather, you suggested I'd have a coronary if he posted to this thread. I don't take kindly to such trolling, of me or any other forum member. I call this type of behavior instigating.

Here are further examples of you characterizing gboldeuv and his contributions to the forum

gbold has some stimulating, if distinctly "alternative," ideas there.
Ideally, maybe I should think about breaking this aspect of the thread off
and creating a new thread about gbolduevian labs, etc.
Of course, the forum would have to create a new department--
I kinda like the title
Peat Infidels and their Evil Ideas.
Charlie could maybe create a virtual stoning function.
Not stoning unto death.
Just a good thumping to beat the Peat back into the Infidels....

the gbolduev thing is a sticky wicket.

Many of the criticisms of gbolduev are hard to refute.
But let me focus on why I kinda liked him.

I think he has some extreme passion for and intelligence about the world of health.
Sure, a surplus of ego.
A deficit of Peat reading (it would seem),
etc.

And, sure, we can mock the applicability of his credentials, stock trader, to health.

Unfortunately, from all this mess, bgoldeuv appeared to consider himself part of a personal quarrel you have with me and the forum as a whole it now seems and got caught in the crossfire. I would suggest that if you have issues with the forum, you take them up with forum administration rather than complain and use incendiary terms to describe people and the motives you perceive in them.

I'm finished talking about this with you, narouz. I don't consider any common ground attainable and so there is no sense continuing a futile argument.

 

[narouz]

Rather, you suggested I'd have a coronary if he posted to this thread. I don't take kindly to such trolling, of me or any other forum member. I call this type of behavior instigating.

I replied to you about that a bit upthread,
but apparently you won't accept my explanation.

Such suggested gbolduev would be fun to get into the thread.
I agreed, but joked I wouldn't want to give you a coronary.
That's not "trolling."
That's joking around.
I respectfully suggest you have your moderator Troll-O-Meter set a bit too sensitively.

gbolduev makes statements about Peat you will not like, 4peats.
That seemed more than obvious just from his exchanges with haidut.
Indeed, you complained about some of his comments here already.
My joking around about giving you a coronary
and my joking around about creating a special quarantine area
called "Peat AntiChrists" or "Peat Infidels"
was an attempt to give you a heads-up about how to proceed.
I wanted to get gbolduev involved,
but I didn't want to get him banned or the thread locked down.
With you guys on DefCom5 apparently, nipping in the bud
these reputed anarchist, antiPeat vandal hordes
swarming over here and destroying this forum :)
like we hear tell happened over at peatarian,
I get the distinct feeling there is a hair-trigger about to snap.

I would move a thread with gbolduev to the Debate Forum,
but I heard that it had been removed a while back--
again, I guess as some kind of defensive maneuver against invasion.

At any rate then...how to proceed?
It would seem gbolduev is welcome as per the word of 4peats.
I will post something...

 

[narouz]

Hey gbolduev!
Come on back, man.
You will see that the moderator known as 4peatssake says you are welcome.
You certainly are for my part.
We enjoy your unique perspectives.

 

[4peatssake]

It is very difficult to converse with you amid all these assumptions.

apparently you won't accept my explanation

I respectfully suggest you have your moderator Troll-O-Meter set a bit too sensitively

gbolduev makes statements about Peat you will not like, 4peats

It would seem gbolduev is welcome as per the word of 4peats.

And this is taken completely out of context.

Indeed, you complained about some of his comments here already.

I spoke to him directly about a single, very specific concern I had about a comment he had made. I didn't just start complaining about him randomly.

And if you had genuine concerns about inviting him to participate on your thread, why not pm one of us, rather than operating from within a framework such as this?

I wanted to get gbolduev involved,
but I didn't want to get him banned or the thread locked down.
With you guys on DefCom5 apparently, nipping in the bud
these reputed anarchist, antiPeat vandal hordes
swarming over here and destroying this forum :)
like we hear tell happened over at peatarian,
I get the distinct feeling there is a hair-trigger about to snap.

I would move a thread with gbolduev to the Debate Forum,
but I heard that it had been removed a while back--
again, I guess as some kind of defensive maneuver against invasion.

This is how you characterize a small group of volunteers who are trying to keep the conversations here civil and within a particular context. We do our best despite people going off on us from time to time.

I'm not debating with you about the forum. I respectfully suggest rather that you contact admin with your ideas and contributions for how to make it better.

 

[4peatssake]

You will see that the moderator known as 4peatssake says you are welcome.

Now you present me as an authority.

I'm sure gboldeuv and others can determine for themselves what they think about the less than pleasant (at least for me) conversation we have had. Everyone will have a different point of view, depending on their individual make up.

That's part of what make us unique and interesting.

 

[narouz]

Now you present me as an authority.

Only in the obvious (to me) sense
that you are designated "Moderator"
and as such go about your business on the forum
ferreting out which posters are up to no good by
defaming Peat,
spreading disinformation,
intending to disrupt,
posting drivel,
instigating,
and so on...

Is this not the case? :)

 

[narouz]

I'm not debating with you about the forum. I respectfully suggest rather that you contact admin with your ideas and contributions for how to make it better.

Nor do I wish to debate you about The Debate Forum.
That would be silly.

 

[4peatssake]

 

[narouz]

I had been meaning to post this commentary about IP6
I came across in perusing the interwebs.
I copied it but didn't get the address--
I'll find that.
I don't know anything about the poster.
Just going on the content and manner of what he said.
But, I thought he/she had some interesting thoughts about IP6,
especially on:
-taking it on a very empty stomach
-dental sensitivities when taking too much
-(have to put this in the speculative category, but) iron in gut feeding cancer, bacteria, viruses and fungals
-taking IP6 with a good amount of non-mineralized water because the stomach acids and enzymes need to be
diluted so as not to compromise the IP6


"Sorry if I'm not addressing your question properly, but I've been taking IP6 for 6 months now to chelate excess iron and I have some input you may find interesting. I don't have a lot of knowledge regarding your specific query. Aside from the anti-cancer and immune supporting action of IP6 (boosting NK cells), IP6 is also effective at binding free iron (which feeds cancer, bacteria, viruses and fungals) when it is taken properly. Aside from these benefits, it also lowers inflammatory cytokines (TNF-a)! IP6 should always be taken on a very empty stomach (4 to 6 hours after meals and at least 30 minutes before eating) with a full glass of water to carry IP6 through your stomach and into your intestine swiftly for proper absorption. Any food at all present in your stomach will largely deactivate most of the benefit you might get from IP6. Similar problems will occur if you take it without adequate water to carry it swiftly through your stomach. Mucus, prostaglandins, acids and gastric secretions can damage IP6 if they are not diluted with water. When taken properly, you really only need one or possibly two 500mg doses of IP6 per day. I typically take it first thing in the morning or just before bed, and have noticed remarkable results at rather low doses. Regarding the dosage, I believe some are confusing IP6 with simple inositol as I have noticed some advising dosing IP6 at several grams a day, which is the standard dosage for simple inositol supplementation. Many cancer forums advise taking IP6 with additional inositol, and perhaps this is where the confusion occurs. If I take IP6 at levels higher than 500mg, twice per day (total 1000mg/day) I get dental sensitivities, which is the only side effect I've noticed from IP6. I have never taken more than this dosage and I believe it would be unwise to do so. Additional simple inositol may boost the effectiveness of IP6, but I have not yet tried this regime. I also take low dose magnesium (citrate 200mg) with lunch (at least 6 hours away from IP6), and low dose zinc (Tri-Zinc 50), also well away from when I take IP6 to reduce the possibility of a shortage of these vital minerals. Although studies have shown as long as IP6 is not taken with meals mineral depletion does not occur, it may be wise to "cycle off" of IP6 one week per month, or 3 days per week to allow your body to replenish trace minerals which could possibly become depleted with extended use of IP6. After 3 months continuous use of IP6, I am now cycling briefly off of it as I describe. There's a very good paper on IP6: "Effect of Inositol Hexaphosphate on Lipopolysaccharide-Stimulated Release of TNF-a from Human Mononuclear Cells" which contains a great deal of valuable information on IP6. I highly recommend giving it a look if you are interested in this remarkable supplement. There's an Abstract here: http://www.pjoes.com/abstracts/2008/Vol17/No02/14.html"

 

[narouz]

I came across what seems to be an article written by the same guy
who wrote the blog entry in my previous post.

It is longer and contains more information.
Here is one bit I found interesting...

"The graphs in the study may appear misleading as they show TNF-a rising at high doses of IP6, but if you look closely you'll see this rise occurred with large doses
and there is a "sweet spot" at lower doses that substantially lowered TNF-a.
I've found only one IP6 per day (500mg) taken on a very empty stomach with a full glass of water is all it takes to keep my PE away, and at this low dose mineral deficiencies should not be a problem."

...He is referring to the study he links to in the article--
the same one listed in my last post.

Here is the link to the article:
http://www.mdjunction.com/forums/ci...-binds-iron-and-lowers-inflammatory-cytokines

Oh, and here's another thing I found clarifying,
if the author's info is correct...

"If taken on an empty stomach with a full glass of water, IP6 enters the blood intact, "looking" for minerals to bind and from what I have found, will quickly snap-up any unbound serum iron (the most dangerous kind!) in blood plasma."

I had been wondering how the IP6 works--
I mean, if it goes down into the bowels and binds to iron there
and carries it out...
how would that effect blood serum iron levels?
Well, I guess the blood serum iron comes from the excess iron in the gut. Duh.

(edit: well, thinking on it, maybe not.
Maybe the IP6 goes down into the intestines,
is absorbed into the bloodstream from there,
and floats around in the blood
binding to unbound iron there...?)

The other thing I think about is:
this must be a circular, "vicious circle" (as Peat would say) kind of thing.
Iron is a result of inflammation, right?
I think Peat (for one) says this.
But then...it must also turn around and cause inflammation...?

 

[narouz]

Becoming pretty clear to me now
that I do experience the tooth sensitivity oft reported as common
with too-high doses of IP6.

As the writer in my previous two posts immediately upthread noted,
it is probably only necessary for most
to take no more than 500mg per day
if the dosing is done to his standard--
on a very empty stomach.
Well, I think he says maybe two doses for some individuals.

I've been taking IP6 + Inositol (both at 500mg) for a couple/few weeks now
and have noticed a correlation between pronounced tooth-acheyness
and doses of IP6+Inositol exceeding the one dose of both at 500mg.

I had a tooth extracted and a root canal in the same quadrant about half a year ago.
When I take too much IP6+Inositol I get some pretty intense aching in those areas.
I wonder why the acheyness goes there?

Also been having some what-might-be-called peripheral neuropathy
in my right foot,
sometimes slight, sometimes pretty pronounced.
I don't think it is correlated with the high doses of IP6...but haven't ruled it out.

Also, the author of the article in my previous post
is using, I think, only IP6.
So that may be less potent than the mixture I'm using.

 

[pboy]

I'm gonna bump this thread just to ask a question, cause I forgot where I saw Haidut talking about milk and iron somewhere. Could excessive milk consumption over time without really any iron rich food possible lead to an enlarged spleen? And if so, I forgot what you guys were talking about...that perhaps the iron is there but just sequestered in a way? I find this interesting, I'm starting to wonder what my iron status is because for like a year and a half now I haven't actually been eating that much iron at all, a handful of times here and there id have mulberries or figs or some other fruit relatively high but that's kinda it. I breath fine and all, my endurance is decent, but I'm starting to feel like...for a minute now, like below my left rib cage it seems a lil swoll or somethin somethin, no pain but it feels almost like I got some food when I dont

 

[narouz]

...but I'm starting to feel like...for a minute now, like below my left rib cage it seems a lil swoll or somethin somethin, no pain but it feels almost like I got some food when I dont

Some mystery does surround the sensation you describe, p.
I mean, in my mind.
I've felt a similar thing sometimes,
and others have reported it too.

Seems like it could be several things:
1. ascending/transverse colon
2. liver
3. gallbladder
4. kidney

I don't know about the spleen thing.
To tell you the truth I'd have to check to see where it's located.

We have some posters here,
like thebigpeatowski,
who experienced pain in the right side of the abdomen
upon eating certain things.
And she could repeatedly get rid of the pain by taking Nystatin, an antifungal.

I think Jennifer experiences something like that too maybe, after eating starch or fiber.

And I have had aches in that right side--usually in the upper quadrant like you describe.
Sometimes more broadly, like where the ascending colon is.
Never come to a conclusion.

We might rule out kidney,
because typically that aches, I think, in the back.

Tell you the truth,
I've never really zoomed in on gallbladder and studied whether I could have a problem there.

I know that I tend to have too much iron.
So...makes me wonder if iron in my liver could cause an ache there in upper right quadrant.
I'm kinda focusing there, investigating that now.

But as I said I've also felt the ache a little more broadly on the right side--not just up high there.
And when that is the case,
I think I've noticed a little distension visible just looking at my abdomen.
That made me think ascending colon.

I did make some pretty big changes about 3 or 4 months back
which did help that distension, achey-ness,
and mainly my butthole where I think I had, essentially, internal hemorrhoids
and little bumps
and diarrhea.
All that went away when I changed some dietary things and added/discontinued some supps.
Maybe you've read about that in my posts so I won't go into that here.

So I'm looking into the liver/iron thing.
I guess I'll have to get off the sauce.
I don't think it's connected,
because I go through phases where I don't drink at all,
then sometimes I drink too much beer.
But when my health went downhill about a year+ ago
I hadn't been drinking at all for about a year.
But...alcohol is known to contribute to iron in the liver, so...ain't helpin' I reckon,
if I have too much iron there.

I don't think you'll be keen to do a lot of tests, from what I know about you.
But for free you could go donate blood
at a place where they do a simple finger prick iron test.
Mine is always high.
It's not a very sophisticated test,
but it might give you a clue about your iron levels...

But..."don't trip on it, man"!

 

[cantstoppeating]

I respectfully suggest you have your moderator Troll-O-Meter set a bit too sensitively

I thinks it's absolutely fine and absolutely accurate; you're very fond of trolling, narouz.


Anyway, please continue this discussion on IP6 for iron chelation.

 

[narouz]

Haidut posted this iron-related thread here:

http://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=75&p=95510#p95329

"Biomarker for liver iron overload"

 

[narouz]

All but certain now
that IP6 (+Inositol) in high doses causes me to have
what I'll call "peripheral neuropathy" in my right foot--
numby feelings, somewhat of a burny sensation...unpleasant.
Makes me want to take my shoe off, which feels good.

By "high doses" I mean in excess of about 500mg of IP6 and 500mg of Inositol per day.
And that is on a very empty stomach--
4-6 hours after eating/drinking and at least half an hour before eating.

Now, I've had aches in that foot, seemingly radiating from my lower back ache, before.
So the IP6 seems to re-activate a previously painful nerve pathway.

(Upthread I note how IP6 in high doses also causes tooth pain;
there too, those teeth have had problems/pain in the past;
interesting how the IP6 causes pain in previously challenged areas/nerve pathways....)

 

[narouz]

I thinks it's absolutely fine and absolutely accurate; you're very fond of trolling, narouz.

A petty obsession with "trolling" is the hobgoblin of authoritarian minds.

 

[Such_Saturation]

A petty obsession with "trolling" is the hobgoblin of authoritarian minds.

If men define situations as real, they are real in their consequences.