Kocky777´s Insomnia thread - appreciate your help and wisdom

[youngsinatra]

Thank you so much for your reply and your tipps! :)
I´m a bit afraid of cutting out all my beloved supplements... :-/ I could imagine that, if one day most health issues are at bay. But you could be right about abstaining from supplements. Can you elaborate on your success story with cutting out the supps?
But I am definitely going to cut down my caffeine intake!

Well, when I first got into natural health, my overall wellbeing and health was pretty good, but I wanted more and optimize things. Then I took a lot of supplements, listened to bad advice (also on this forum) and caused myself way bigger problems than before. And today I can say that most of my own health problems of today were partially if not mostly caused by supplementation.

I developed (got a clinically diagnosed) chronic vitamin A toxicity, had zinc toxicity which led long-term copper deficiency and neurological problems, vitamin D messed with my magnesium/potassium status, made me feel extremely irratable, caused hypercalciura, I also hurt my thyroid with iodine supplements, messed up my metabolic rate with a few years of high-dose fish oil, felt sluggish from magnesium for months until I realized that not taking it made me feel way better, B vitamins and vitamin E made me feel depressed, sweaty and dizzy, and relatively high doses of B’s ruined my sleep. Also had a few months of B6 toxicity from a B complex that contained P5P in not so high doses. Calcium carbonate messed with my digestion….

The list could go on and on.

Taking no supplements was at first an occasional thing when I visited someone over a weekend or for vacation and on these days I usually felt much better, even though I thought I would not function with them.

But then I eliminated most of the supplements, most were not helpful anyway, but I continued with them „for their benefits“ regardless for so long.

I‘m not completely against all supplements, but it’s best to keep it minimalistic. I still take like 10mg of thiamine pyrophosphate per day and occasionally some folate, because my diet is literally white rice, meats, fruits, very few veggies and coffee, mineral water and really lacking those.

 

[Peatful]

Dear Peatful, thank you so much for your input!

- I put myself on four grains (maybe an idiot move, but I read here on the forum and on StoptheThyroidMadness that some people need way more than 2 grains of NDT and I didn´t feel that bad on 4 grains).
- I´ve struggled with hypothyroidism, occasional insomnia and chronic fatigue for approx. 7 years. I´ve been exposed to black mold and I also had lots of stress in my life (like many other people of course).
- I have to start tracking with cronometer, but will give an update on detailed daily calories ASAP. Regarding the macros: I drink a huge whey protein shake every day, so 80-100 grams of Protein are assured. Recently, I´ve been upping my protein because I´ve read here on the forum that some dude has successfully overcome his insomnia because he upped his protein to 200 grams a day. Also, I eat many carbs a day. But of course, I need to give you precise numbers, will do ASAP.
- My diet history is terrible: During university I delved into bodybuilding and idiotically had a low fat AND low carb diet. Later I used a keto diet.
- My waking temperature is 36,5/97,7, I have to check the temperature after a meal, but will provide the info ASAP.
- I am a teacher. I love my job and my students but due to flaws in the educational system and the workload it is sometimes very stressful. (Of course, other people have stressful jobs, too.)
- I work out once a week, full body training (deadlifts, benchpress, lat pulls, curls, shrugs, etc.) Sauna afterwards. I want to keep training to once a week to protect my body of too much stress.

Thank you and I´m looking forward to further advice!

The old cautionary tale of I read it on the RPF so therefore it must be OK
(As I ironically proceed to tell you what I would do in your situation)

With that - please know that I am no expert

I am just a person who was a bigger idiot than you with her health and now im well

Thank you for taking the time to answer each question thoroughly
I bet you’re a great teacher





I really have no bad news to tell you
Yours is a pretty common and clear-cut case of a crashed metabolism due to several factors
And I believe it’s easily fixable


Did you ever come across the guy on the forum Dave Clark?
He was the guy who couldn’t sleep
Proceeds to go to a McDonald’s one night
Gets a big Mac and a big Coke
And sleeps like a baby for the first time in years
So he proceeds to research as to why this happened and he stumbles upon Ray Peat

Spoiler
It was the sugar


Have you seen this?
It’s short


View: https://youtu.be/JO5uhV2KweY




When you started taking thyroid your body must’ve had some glycogen in the liver

Then you ramped up your metabolism unnaturally through four grains and you went through your liver and probably even muscle glycogen
Burning it up

Subsequently you are running strictly on stress hormones and adrenal function

These two things combined make it incredibly difficult to sleep


Am I recommending you eat a pound of sugar in three days?
Yes
I am



I am also strongly recommending that you start from a clean slate
No supplements for at least 21 days and then add them back in as needed judiciously

During this time take your temperatures try to eat enough and try to eat balanced macro meals
40% carbs 30% proteins and 30% fat
Why?
Because doing so allows your adrenals to calm down and your thyroid to kick in
Your adrenals are doing everything possible to keep that blood sugar up
It’s a workhorse to get glycogen to your brain


Ok
I think that’s it for now

No thyroid grains
No supplements
Eating well
Eating balanced
No restriction (pufa and shtt foods of course restrict)

Keto and paleo have made SO many people end up here


There are other suggestions here and there that I could add
Like less liquid more solid foods

But the over arching message is you need to replenish your liver glycogen and help kick on your thyroid naturally again

Taking your temperature is a great way to track progress and how a meal has affected you


Lmk if you need clarification on any of this
Im outta time….

 

[Peatful]

I forgot something


The gym and sauna

If you could….
Drop that for 21 plus days too

It will be two steps forward one step back doing that at the beginning

My opinion only!

Best

 

[Kocky777]

Well, when I first got into natural health, my overall wellbeing and health was pretty good, but I wanted more and optimize things. Then I took a lot of supplements, listened to bad advice (also on this forum) and caused myself way bigger problems than before. And today I can say that most of my own health problems of today were partially if not mostly caused by supplementation.

I developed (got a clinically diagnosed) chronic vitamin A toxicity, had zinc toxicity which led long-term copper deficiency and neurological problems, vitamin D messed with my magnesium/potassium status, made me feel extremely irratable, caused hypercalciura, I also hurt my thyroid with iodine supplements, messed up my metabolic rate with a few years of high-dose fish oil, felt sluggish from magnesium for months until I realized that not taking it made me feel way better, B vitamins and vitamin E made me feel depressed, sweaty and dizzy, and relatively high doses of B’s ruined my sleep. Also had a few months of B6 toxicity from a B complex that contained P5P in not so high doses. Calcium carbonate messed with my digestion….

The list could go on and on.

Taking no supplements was at first an occasional thing when I visited someone over a weekend or for vacation and on these days I usually felt much better, even though I thought I would not function with them.

But then I eliminated most of the supplements, most were not helpful anyway, but I continued with them „for their benefits“ regardless for so long.

I‘m not completely against all supplements, but it’s best to keep it minimalistic. I still take like 10mg of thiamine pyrophosphate per day and occasionally some folate, because my diet is literally white rice, meats, fruits, very few veggies and coffee, mineral water and really lacking those.

Dear youngsinatra,

thank you so much for your detailed answer! Yesterday, I looked through your Vit A-Deficiency thread and I saw from your picture of your blood panel that you are also from Germany? (Hallo, freue mich, Deine Bekanntschaft zu machen! )

Your report makes absolutely sense and I can understand why you abolished any supplements.
My situation is a bit different though only when I was encountering big problems due to chronic fatigue and other hypothyroid issues, I started to use supplements. I also used mega dose iodine (PLUS selenium, that is important) a la the Brownstein protocol (even had some minor successes) so I can relate.
Vit B Complex, high dose thiamine and Vitamin D for example makes me feel good.

Mega Dose Vitamin C a la Cathcart successfully fights off my colds/fevers in world record time. It really works that fantastic for me.

--> How to Determine Vitamin C Dosage
--> Why So Much Vitamin C?
--> DoctorYourself.com - Laryngitis


Right now, my supps are a crutch and my goal is to replenish health so that I can cut out my supplements, too, maybe except mega dose Vitamin C in case of a nasty cold or fever.

 

[Kocky777]

The old cautionary tale of I read it on the RPF so therefore it must be OK
(As I ironically proceed to tell you what I would do in your situation)

With that - please know that I am no expert

I am just a person who was a bigger idiot than you with her health and now im well

Thank you for taking the time to answer each question thoroughly
I bet you’re a great teacher





I really have no bad news to tell you
Yours is a pretty common and clear-cut case of a crashed metabolism due to several factors
And I believe it’s easily fixable


Did you ever come across the guy on the forum Dave Clark?
He was the guy who couldn’t sleep
Proceeds to go to a McDonald’s one night
Gets a big Mac and a big Coke
And sleeps like a baby for the first time in years
So he proceeds to research as to why this happened and he stumbles upon Ray Peat

Spoiler
It was the sugar


Have you seen this?
It’s short


View: https://youtu.be/JO5uhV2KweY




When you started taking thyroid your body must’ve had some glycogen in the liver

Then you ramped up your metabolism unnaturally through four grains and you went through your liver and probably even muscle glycogen
Burning it up

Subsequently you are running strictly on stress hormones and adrenal function

These two things combined make it incredibly difficult to sleep


Am I recommending you eat a pound of sugar in three days?
Yes
I am



I am also strongly recommending that you start from a clean slate
No supplements for at least 21 days and then add them back in as needed judiciously

During this time take your temperatures try to eat enough and try to eat balanced macro meals
40% carbs 30% proteins and 30% fat
Why?
Because doing so allows your adrenals to calm down and your thyroid to kick in
Your adrenals are doing everything possible to keep that blood sugar up
It’s a workhorse to get glycogen to your brain


Ok
I think that’s it for now

No thyroid grains
No supplements
Eating well
Eating balanced
No restriction (pufa and shtt foods of course restrict)

Keto and paleo have made SO many people end up here


There are other suggestions here and there that I could add
Like less liquid more solid foods

But the over arching message is you need to replenish your liver glycogen and help kick on your thyroid naturally again

Taking your temperature is a great way to track progress and how a meal has affected you


Lmk if you need clarification on any of this
Im outta time….

Dear Peatful, thank you for your detailed and eloquently written rationale! THIS REALLY HIT HOME!
Thanks to your explanations and tipps I ate approximately 200 grams of honey yesterday spread over the afternoon and the evening and I´m sure that the honey (maybe together with my 800mg of Phosphatidylserine spread over the day) was the reason that I SLEPT REALLY DEEP AND SOUND yesterday!!! THANK YOU!!!

Fingers crossed that 200 grams of honey (and maybe the PS) will continue working! I definitley am in sleep debt.


Thank you for the compliment that I was a great teacher, you´re too kind! I try every day, sometimes my students hate me, sometimes they are content with me.

Anyways,
I´ll definitely have to check out forum user Dave Clark and his content. The Ray Peat video that you posted also really hit home! Insanely interesting how a good blood sugar level cranks up the immune system and obliterates stress hormones!

I really believe that you are right with your assumption that the 4 grains of NDT have cranked up my metabolism unhealthily and that my liver glycogen has been burned up and that I´m running on stress hormones.

However I am too afraid of giving up all supplemens and NDT NOW, I want to decrease NDT slowly (and I want to wait for the thyroid blood panel in approx. 2 weeks) but I will definitely use your "Eat 1 Pound of sugar in three days" approach and continue gulping down my honey jar. But of course the goal is to be able to function without supplements and without thyroid supplementation. A doctor made an ultrasound of my thyroid and it turned out that my thyroid volume was very small (9 millileter) even though they never found Hashimoto antibodies. So that is a reason why I think that I will maybe need thyroid hormone supplementation for a longer time. But there are also reports of doctors that thyroid have grown back to normal size after supplementation with NDT. I need to do a new thyroid ultrasound since the other one is from 3 or 4 years ago...

Now, dear Peatful, I have some more questions, if you don´t mind:

1) You wrote that you are "well now". --> So you managed to get your thyroid and liver glycogen back online? Are you free of health issues? Were you able to drop thryoid hormone supplementation?
2) What do you in order to keep things healthy and well for you? --> "Eat 1 pound of sugar in three days" or is that only a short-term measure?
3) For how long would I have to eat 1 pound of sugar in three days? Forever or 21 days as you wrote?

 

[Kocky777]

I've been big on digestion lately, but at the end of the day (no pun intended) you need to experiment and see what makes you relax. Stretching, walking and some light abdominal massage might be helpful. Ideally you'd want optimal co2 levels to make moving your body a relaxing activity. Let's say you have some energetic blockage, not enough nutrients like sugar and salt - OR enough nutrients but irritated intestines, movement of any kind can easily become stressful.

I'm not a fan of prolonged use of laxatives but as a diagnostic it can be helpful just to see how you feel from it. Also trying to be mindful of how you feel after eating certain foods, which is kind of hard with a varied diet and lots of supplements.

Dear Jonk,
thank you for your reply!
Digestion and gut health is absolutely vital and important for overall health and sleep.
Gut health is also top priority for me!

 

[Kocky777]

I forgot something


The gym and sauna

If you could….
Drop that for 21 plus days too

It will be two steps forward one step back doing that at the beginning

My opinion only!

Best

With all due respect, dear Peatful.
I will try only "eat 1 pound of sugar in three days" first and if not successful will certainly drop gym, sauna and supplements.
But I want to exert "the less drastic measures" first. Will keep you updated.

And thank you so much again!!!

 

[Peatful]

With all due respect, dear Peatful.
I will try only "eat 1 pound of sugar in three days" first and if not successful will certainly drop gym, sauna and supplements.
But I want to exert "the less drastic measures" first. Will keep you updated.

And thank you so much again!!!

Sure
It’s all about experimentation
Figuring things out for yourself
Definitely don’t take my advice as any type of authority

I see you use the word “afraid” above
Sometimes it’s best to put aside the feeling and to really hone in on logic

If I had let afraid talk to me during my healing I would’ve never of healed


I personally would have expected your thyroid to be shriveled up since it was not being fed in simplest of terms

——————————————————

Your questions:

1-correct. Im well. Weak digestion still- but honestly getting better week after week month after month. No thyroid needed. I was “diagnosed” as hypothyroid and Hashimotos btw. Ha.

2- this is a good and somewhat complicated question for me.
For yourself - listen to what ray says in context above. I personally would say you only do it once.
Then logically reassess.
Being on that other drug only stalls true healing.

3-listen to Ray again.
Just once. Then reassess.
Put the supplements aside. Let yout body find balance without “chemicals”. Your body is miraculous. It wants to heal. Giving it other things at this stage muddies the water.
->Food is a powerful metabolic and hormonal messenger.
Think of how Ray addresses complex issues with something as simple as “have you tried the carrot salad?”


Does that help?
I hope so

Im no authority

You are your authority over your body
And your body is on your side
Fighting for you


Keep being logical

Im here at anytime btw


Best

 

[Deadpool]

I am having the same problem. Id definitely lower the thyroid or drop it completely if you don’t need it. For me it revvs me up a lot.

Also Id cut the b vitamins. Whenever I introduce b, especially anything to do with methylation like b2, my insomnia gets much much worse, sometimes not sleeping 2 days in a row

 

[Peatress]

140 is low normal for a man so I'm usually ok unless I give blood or do something unusual e.g. I had a very cinnamon heavy banana bread recently and that dropped me to 136 I assume because of the coumarin in cinnamon. Then on another occasion I got bitten by several horseflys and that dropped me to 126, most likely the immune response. Hemoglobin meters are cheap and it's interesting to monitor.

My Haemoglobin tends to be on the low side - currently 116g/L ( Normal Range: 115 - 155).

 

[maillol]

My Haemoglobin tends to be on the low side - currently 116g/L ( Normal Range: 115 - 155).

From my research it seems common causes of persistently low hemoglobin are things that cause chronic oxidative stress or things that stimulate an immune response.

 

[Peatress]

From my research it seems common causes of persistently low hemoglobin are things that cause chronic oxidative stress or things that stimulate an immune response.

Like vaccines?

I've been wondering if I might be reacting to dairy.

 

[maillol]

Like vaccines?

I've been wondering if I might be reacting to dairy.

I wasn't thinking of vaccines but possibly. Corticosteroids are the standard treatment for hemolytic anemia because they dampen the immune system. If you're allergic to dairy and it triggers an immune response that's possible. It would be interesting if dropping it helps.

 

[AinmAnseo]

I am having the same problem. Id definitely lower the thyroid or drop it completely if you don’t need it. For me it revvs me up a lot.

Also Id cut the b vitamins. Whenever I introduce b, especially anything to do with methylation like b2, my insomnia gets much much worse, sometimes not sleeping 2 days in a row

Deadpool,
Do you mean "b12", where you say "methylation like b2" ?

 

[Kocky777]

Late update:
So, I've been working on my metabolism and sleep/fighting against terrible insomnia. Many thanks for everyone who contributed, special thanx to @Peatful

What I did:

- I decreased my NDT (brand/product "Allergy Research Thyroid") from 280mg to 120mg.
- I upped calories, especially carbs and proteins. Thanks to Peatful again! :)
Sadly, I have gained lots of weight. I have read here on the forum
- I introduced Pregnenolone 100mg and DHEA 10mg daily (both seem to help my adrenals/fights anxiety).
- I introduced 500mg Aspirine with baking soda, vitamin C, glycine twice a day (1 Gram of Aspirine per day)
- tried the Richfield Temperature Reset Protocol for 3 days, but aborted due to job duties, will try again in Summer '24.

At the moment, I'm sleeping pretty well. I hope it stays that way. (I have had many phases of Insomnia followed by times when I could sleep).

Right now, I'm hoping to raise my temperatures to 98,6 Fahrenheit or 37 Celsius. I hope that the Aspirine is going to help with that. Still fighting the good fight.

Question to y'all:

Has anybody COMPLETELY HEALED their thyroid/metabolism successfully?

How exactly did you it?

Thank you so much, all you wonderful people!!!

 

[Peatful]

This may interest you:

Weight gain when trying to heal. Is it what you think?

Edited for clarity: “Stress hormones will desensitize the insulin receptor. From birth to now, most of us have had some sort of stress that has shaped our experience of our health. With chronic stress comes many things, all of which desensitizes the insulin receptor.” “…when you...

raypeatforum.com

 

[Peatful]

Best to you @Kocky777

 

[Kocky777]

This may interest you:

Weight gain when trying to heal. Is it what you think?

Edited for clarity: “Stress hormones will desensitize the insulin receptor. From birth to now, most of us have had some sort of stress that has shaped our experience of our health. With chronic stress comes many things, all of which desensitizes the insulin receptor.” “…when you...

raypeatforum.com

Thank you so much, dear @Peatful
The thread that you linked is really interesting, I already stumbled upon that and read most of the thread.

The theory that weight gain is only temporary when you refeed and break the vicious cycle of undereating and the resulting low thyroid/low metabolism until your body trusts you again that "famine" / undereating is over and that it does not need to store fat in order to "survive the famine" is VERY interesting.

Have you @Peatful successfully restored thyroid/metabolism and good temperatures (98,6 Fahrenheit and upwards) with refeeding? I think I remember from all your very enlightening posts that you did , but that you're still struggling with digestion (I can recommend TUDCA for digestion/liver/gallbladder).

Did you gain lots of weight during refeeding? Did you lose the extra weight after you have restored thyroid function/metabolism?
Regarding Refeeding and (temporary) resulting overweight, I also read everything by user Chiron, but he sadly isn't active here anymore.

Thank you so so much!!! By the way: I have followed your profile since you so wonderfully gave me helpful advice in this thread.
All the best for you, too, dear @Peatful and many greetings from central Europe over the great pond to the USA (you are American, right?)

 

[Peatful]

Have you @Peatful successfully restored thyroid/metabolism and good temperatures (98,6 Fahrenheit and upwards) with refeeding?

A resounding yes

Did you gain lots of weight during refeeding?

A resounding yes
Lol

Did you lose the extra weight after you have restored thyroid function/metabolism?

Yes
Pretty effortlessly
Of course I was eating less than I ate my first six months nourishing myself
But
I never had to restrict
It simply came off
Slowly I will add
Which to me is an indicator of healthy weight loss

you are American, right?

Yes
Hugs from across the pond

 

[Kocky777]

A resounding yes


A resounding yes
Lol


Yes
Pretty effortlessly
Of course I was eating less than I ate my first six months nourishing myself
But
I never had to restrict
It simply came off
Slowly I will add
Which to me is an indicator of healthy weight loss


Yes
Hugs from across the pond

Thank you, your answers give me lots of hope! Very much appreciated!

Do you remember, how long it took you to restore thyroid/metabolism/good temperatures?

Do you remember how long it took you to lose the extra weight from the refeeding phase?

Have you restored your "ideal" weight/a weight that you are satisfied with or are still "overweight" because of refeeding?

I love the national variety on this forum and I love many things about the USA and your free way of life, although Orwellian threats to freedom and democracy also exist in your country (like in Europe). Can't wait for 2024 and (hopefully) the return of reason, truth, freedom and democracy in the US and world-wide. ;-)