Low acetylcholine? Dysautonomia?

[mostlylurking]

Thanks for your detailed response @mostlylurking



I don't know. I suspect it may be from some supplement, but not sure.

Last year I was high in zinc but in range for copper. Four months ago I was low in copper but in range for zinc. (included the test result in the previous post) A mystery to me.

Have you been supplementing zinc? Do you do any metal work like welding? If you were in range for zing four months ago and now you are high then you probably are being exposed to it somehow. Do some detective work and try to find the source of the zinc.


This search provided the most pertinent results: "occupational sources for zinc overload".

Too much zinc: Symptoms, causes, and treatments

Too much zinc can be harmful and may result in symptoms such as nausea, diarrhea, and headaches. Learn about the causes, symptoms, and treatment of zinc toxicity here.

www.medicalnewstoday.com

also:

Zinc Toxicity - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

also:

Zinc Toxicity - PubMed

Zinc is a transition metal usually present in nature in its divalent state. It is considered an essential mineral as it is necessary for the production of hundreds of enzymes throughout the body. Daily recommended intake of zinc differs depending on the patient population, and the normal...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Thiamine is protective in many ways. One way is keeping the blood/brain barrier intact. Thiamine deficiency causes leaky gut and also leaky blood/brain barrier. Good thiamine status helps keep heavy metals, including iron out of the brain.

Does thiamine protect the brain from iron overload and alcohol-related dementia? - PubMed

Alcohol-related dementia (ARD) is a common and severe co-morbidity in alcohol use disorder (AUD). We propose brain iron overload (BIO) to be an important and previously neglected pathogenic process, accelerating cognitive decline in AUD. Furthermore, we suggest thiamine, which is frequently...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"Thiamine deficiency impairs the integrity of the blood-brain barrier, thereby enabling iron to pass through and accumulate in the brain."

 

[Perceiver]

Wow @redsun ! You seem to be very knowledgeable about this

A valid indicator of excess acetylcholine is frequently experiencing wild and vivid dreams.
Do you have that or do you dream very little if at all?

I dream almost every day, but not wild and very vivid dreams, not always remembering the gist of them

Indicators of low Ach would be fatigue especially upon exertion, memory problems, low muscle tone, poor word recall when speaking.

No specially fatigued upon normal exertion. Usually fatigued in the afternoon after work (I work as a software developer, not a demanding job)
Lately I have noticed some difficulty recalling words when speaking.

Urinary tests of neurotransmitters dont mean much unless it was a 24 hour urine catecholamine test.

The organic acids test was a 24h urine test
Values out of range were:
- Manganese: <0.1 ug/24 h [0.10 - 1.83]
- Chromium: <0.25 [1.00 - 10.70]
- Adrenaline: 18.51 ug/g creatinine [0.80 - 6.50]
- Noradrenaline/Adrenaline ratio: 2.27 [3.00 - 25.00]
- Homovanillic acid (HVA): 3.6 mg/g creatinine [1.8 - 3.0]
- 5-hydroxytryptophan (5HTP): 1.313 ug/g creatinine [2.200 - 8.000]
- Melatonin 6-sulfate (6-STM): 89.85 ug /g creatinine [1.70 - 40.90]
- Aspartic acid: 0.8 mg/g creatinine [1.6 - 4.5]
- Methionine: 1.6 mg/g creatinine [1.8 - 6.8]
- Cystathione: 13.3 mg/g creatinine [2.0 - 10.0]
- Cysteine: 60.2 mg/g creatinine [9.0 - 30.0]

Based on your diet you are definitely missing the choline component. You need choline and copper.
You should be reach at least 600mg of choline a day from food. Some people do better with 800mg. I would suggest you trial 600mg.
Do the math and figure out what you get daily from your diet and then use choline supplements to close the gap to 600mg. Reminder you need to supplement copper as well. 4mg of copper glycinate daily is a good start.

I will try choline and copper supplementation. It seems a sensible approach to start with.
Thanks


Sorry if I go too far, but I feel that giving more context can help to better understand my situation. This is the excerpt I sent to Ray (still waiting for his response):

I am a 47 years old male. I have three children, ages 6, 9 and 10. I work as a software engineer (sitting 8 hours a day). I am very lean (117 lbs, 5 feet 10 inches), eat a mediterranean omnivore diet - avoiding seed oils only. I have dry skin, intolerance to cold but also to hot weather.

It all started in february 2017 after a stressful period (three little kids, work and commuting stress, trying a vegan diet) when I started feeling bloated and with a swollen throat sensation after meals. (Swollen throat sensation has disappeared now but bloating still persists, specially after eating fruits, legumes or grains)
Few weeks later, I began experiencing episodes of fatigue mainly on weekday afternoons. (This fatigue still persists to this day. It is a strange painless fatigue in which I am feeling very tired and that can last from half an hour to 2 hours, usually in the afternoon. However the rest of the day I can perform normal activities and moderate exercise without much problem)
On summer 2020 I became aware of seeing afterimages of high contrast objects and also seeing trails of traffic signs and trees against the sky while driving. (This was recently diagnosed as palinopsia. No physical irregularities have been found in posterior ophtalmologic examinations nor in structural MRIs. Still occurring at the present time)
On december 2020, after a stressful period (COVID lockdown) I had various episodes of slight dizzines, some when changing posture but others even while sleeping. Doctors didn't find any irregularity
I hit rock bottom on january 2021 when I developed anxiety since I became worried about having a neurodegenerative disease given the strange symptoms I was experiencing. I was waking up in the middle of the night with palpitations and nervousness. (I am currently still waking up around 5 am with palpitations and buzzing body and experiencing mild anxiety, specially in the morning)
At that same time I began feeling tiredness under eyes shortly after meals, like in lack of sleep but without somnolence, and sometimes mild dark circles. (Still ocurring every day in some other meal)

I have been through many official doctors (generalists, gastroenterologists, neurologists, rheumatologist) and alternative ones who have considered the regular tests results as "normal" and haven't provided any clue about these disorders. Celiac disease, myasthenia gravis, mutiple sclerosis and Parkinson's disease have been discarded by tests (blood tests, colonoscopy and MRI). Some doctors suggested a nervous system "overactivation" problem and prescribed SSRIs and SNRIs which I declined to take.

Finally on march 2021 I found a "precision medicine" doctor which ordered comprehensive tests and found some irregularities. He said that I had mitochondrial hypoxia and low DHEA, low testosterone and low cortisol. He prescribed a cocktail of supplement complexes and hyperbaric treatment. While I was taking the supplements and following the treatment, my familiy doctor granted 4 months of sick leave (september 2021) and prescribed low dose SSRI (citalopram 10mg), which I took for only 3 months. During the last 3 months of my sick leave I was absolutely fatigue free, although some anxiety was still there. I suspect the SSRI or the sick leave itself had a role in the remission of fatigue. However a few weeks after returning to work (mid january 2022), having just passed COVID, fatigue came back.

Lastly, a few days ago, based on the results of the last blood test and on those of a cardiovascular and autonomic systems test (generated by a computerized system interpreting heart rate variability and bioelectrical impedance measures), the precision medicine doctor determined I had dysautonomia (low parasympathehic activity) with low acetylcholine and low DHEA.

 

[Perceiver]

I've read your other post and this one. If I were to focus on these symptoms alone, I don't think I would assume anything other than suboptimal thyroid levels and the adrenals kicking in more than they should. Apart from palinopsia, I have all of these, sometimes worse, sometimes milder, depending on my menstrual cycle and current stress. Orthostatic hypotension is worse if I get up fast or if there's too much heat like these days.

You could activate your parasympathetic system with any practice consisting of slow movement. I could refer you to one that's cheaper than a Porges therapist, but you could try some simple exercises on your own first and see what happens. I'm not sure supplements are the way to go if no one knows what is amiss. Your lifestyle will have to change, most likely.

Thanks @ivy
I started practicing yoga 4 months ago. I feel more physically flexible, but I think nothing else changed significantly
It is difficult to slow down with three kids.
Do you know of any effective exercises / practices?

 

[ivy]

Thanks @ivy
I started practicing yoga 4 months ago. I feel more physically flexible, but I think nothing else changed significantly
It is difficult to slow down with three kids.
Do you know of any effective exercises / practices?

I was just reading your post with the email you sent Ray. I'm very curious to see what he has to say, but I suspect the fundamental change will be environmental.

I practice and teach Biodanza. It's been the most helpful tool for reducing stress and consistently taming my IBS, while also providing a sense of being alive and rejuvenated even when I'm mentally or physically exhausted. The connections between my emotional landscape and symptoms became very, very clear with sustained practice... Like you, I spend a lot of my time with demanding laptop work (translations and revisions of texts ranging from art history to logical access management procedures!). My anxities do need a physical outlet and for a very long time I sought violent physical activity such as cycling or walking for hours. Biodanza, however, if properly taught, will only make moderate demands on your body while providing opportunities for you to move with your emotions involved, with a sense of purpose, and often in pair or group dances. Most importantly, the core section of the class involves slow motion exercises which precisely seek parasympathetic activation. Slow moving was key for me to understand, for instance, how contracted my bowels usually are and how they start to relax in the middle of particular exercises. You have a family and kids and they must be a joy to you, but I wouldn't discard the fact that you yourself seem to be affectively malnourished. Overthinking, overworrying about diseases can only change if you find new focal points and new/renewed sources of intellectual, emotional and physical nourishment. For me, all of that began to change with Biodanza. Not that I replaced my previous bonds with others, but I learned to seek and ask for tenderness, I've learned to work less, I'm much closer to my emotions than I was and I don't adjust to others as much if it harms me. Yoga is as lonely an activity as your work; but a relational, bodily practice might balance things out for you.

Are you in a major city? I could try and recommend a trusted group. You could previously talk to the teacher, let them know your current status, and they'd help you make the most of the class.

 

[Perceiver]

Have you been supplementing zinc? Do you do any metal work like welding? If you were in range for zing four months ago and now you are high then you probably are being exposed to it somehow. Do some detective work and try to find the source of the zinc.

Sorry for my poor wording.
My zinc has normalized while my copper has gotten low. In my last results (four months ago) zinc was in range but copper was low. Whereas a year ago, zinc was hight but copper was fine.

Good to know that thiamine is protective againt leaky blood-brain barrier

 

[Perceiver]

I suspect the fundamental change will be environmental.
...
You have a family and kids and they must be a joy to you, but I wouldn't discard the fact that you yourself seem to be affectively malnourished. Overthinking, overworrying about diseases can only change if you find new focal points and new/renewed sources of intellectual, emotional and physical nourishment.

You really have the ability to read between the lines!
Definitely there seems to be an emotional/behavioural aspect to all of this. Some alternative practitioners have suggested this to me. When it all began when I was feeling trapped by all the obligations that come with taking care of my three children, non-stop, no free time.
Moreover, I tend rationalize everything, having difficulties with letting myself go. I was already more health conscious than the average, but this got more obsessional after the mysterious episodes of fatigue started, trying to figure how to solve it.
Unfortunately here in Peatland few people seem to pay close attention to the role of emotions in health

I practice and teach Biodanza. It's been the most helpful tool for reducing stress and consistently taming my IBS, while also providing a sense of being alive and rejuvenated even when I'm mentally or physically exhausted. The connections between my emotional landscape and symptoms became very, very clear with sustained practice
...
Biodanza, however, if properly taught, will only make moderate demands on your body while providing opportunities for you to move with your emotions involved, with a sense of purpose, and often in pair or group dances. Most importantly, the core section of the class involves slow motion exercises which precisely seek parasympathetic activation. Slow moving was key for me to understand, for instance, how contracted my bowels usually are and how they start to relax in the middle of particular exercises. For me, all of that began to change with Biodanza. Not that I replaced my previous bonds with others, but I learned to seek and ask for tenderness, I've learned to work less, I'm much closer to my emotions than I was and I don't adjust to others as much if it harms me. Yoga is as lonely an activity as your work; but a relational, bodily practice might balance things out for you.

You made me interested in the possibilities of biodanza.
However I live in a small city in Spain, and I am afraid that there is not much offer here. I'll see if I find something.
I see that one of the strengths of biodanza may be that it is a relational activity, practiced in pairs or groups, but can I learn some basic techniques by myself?
Do you know other disciplines / practices that could offer possibilities similar to biodanza?

 

[Bart1]

I think too low acetylcholine

Dysautonomia and underactive parasympathetic system are basically the same thing (I think). These are indicative of thiamine deficiency. I've been through it. I take high dose thiamine hcl for it.

links:

How Can Something As Simple as Thiamine Cause So Many Problems? - Hormones Matter

Is thiamine deficiency too simple to explain the devastating nature of the systemic adverse reactions to some vaccines and medications?

www.hormonesmatter.com

Dr. Lonsdale has written a great book about it.

Thiamine Deficiency Disease, Dysautonomia, and High Calorie Malnutrition

Thiamine Deficiency Disease, Dysautonomia, and High Calorie Malnutrition explores thiamine and how its deficiency affects the functions of the brainst...

www.sciencedirect.com

Thiamine helps normalize acetylcholine levels (I think). Impairment of behavior and acetylcholine metabolism in thiamine deficiency. This involves a cycle/"metabolism" that involve acetylcholine and acetyl co-enzyme A

Acetylcholine - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics

www.sciencedirect.com

quote:
"Acetylcholine is an important neurotransmitter in the central nervous system, in the somatic nervous system, where it is released at the neuromuscular junction, and in the autonomic nervous system. It is released from preganglionic nerves as well as from postganglionic parasympathetic nerves and also from some postganglionic sympathetic nerves. Acetylcholine is the endogenous agonist at muscarinic and nicotinic cholinergic receptors.

Acetylcholine is synthesized from choline and acetyl Co-enzyme A by the enzyme, choline acetyltransferase. The rate-limiting step in the synthesis of acetylcholine is transport of choline into the nerve terminal via the high-affinity choline transporter."

Ray Peat says that the safest way to normalize DHEA level is to take pregnenalone. I am 72. I take pregnenalone and my DHEA level is at the healthy level. If you take DHEA itself and get a little too much, it can convert to estrogen.

I think that Ray Peat was focused on acetylcholine getting too high (not good) whereas Dr. Lonsdale is focused on acetylcholine being too low (not good either).

Dr. Costantini successfully treated thousands of Parkinson's disease patients with high dose thiamine hcl. The fast improvement is quite remarkable. I found his website very helpful: HDT Therapy His patients' before/after videos are available here: Videos Parkinson's Patients before and after treatment - Ultima Edizione.Eu Although these short clips are in Italian, most have English subtitles.

High lactate points to a thiamine deficiency or thiamine functional blockage. Oxidative metabolism requires thiamine; without it, the process can't work and the end product is lactic acid instead of carbon dioxide. Elliot Overton has some good videos about thiamine and how it works:

View: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZPlb2-Xf5TzYhS2h-bXD4q8TBWRjub-D


Click on the link (red, italic, small font) above to go to the list of videos on thiamine.

I think zinc blocks copper?

Inhibition of copper absorption by zinc. Effect of histidine - PubMed

Copper and zinc interact at the intestinal mucosal level, affecting copper absorption. Amino acids, such as histidine, may affect the absorption of these two elements by chelating these cations. The two mechanisms could have additive potential. This possibility was investigated using a...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I've been in a similar situation. I recovered via high dose thiamine hcl; I followed Dr. Costantini's protocol. I did try to use TTFD thiamine but I couldn't tolerate it, probably because I was low in glutathione. Taking thiamine hcl has corrected my low glutathione so I suppose I could try the TTFD again but I've gotten such great results from taking the thiamine hcl that I'm happy just sticking with taking it. I have been taking 1 gram of thiamine hcl 2Xday for the past 18 months.

additional links:

Impairment of behavior and acetylcholine metabolism in thiamine deficiency - PubMed

After only 1 day of treatment with a thiamine-deficient diet and pyrithiamine, a centrally and peripherally acting thiamine antagonist, 37.5% of rats performed poorly on a standardized string test. By day 12, 89.6% of the pyrithiamine-treated rats, but only 8.1% of the pair-fed controls, had...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Vitamin B1 (thiamine) and dementia - PubMed

The earliest and perhaps best example of an interaction between nutrition and dementia is related to thiamine (vitamin B1). Throughout the last century, research showed that thiamine deficiency is associated with neurological problems, including cognitive deficits and encephalopathy. Multiple...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Protection of Cholinergic Neurons against Zinc Toxicity by Glial Cells in Thiamine-Deficient Media - PubMed

Brain pathologies evoked by thiamine deficiency can be aggravated by mild zinc excess. Cholinergic neurons are the most susceptible to such cytotoxic signals. Sub-toxic zinc excess aggravates the injury of neuronal SN56 cholinergic cells under mild thiamine deficiency. The excessive cell loss is...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

@mostlylurking Great post! btw, do you know if Benfothiamin also depletes glutathione ? I had the same issue with TTFD, but I get a better response from Benfo, but still seem to have a lot of "refeeding" type symptoms. Going high on HCL drops my blood sugar like crazy, I don't have that with Benfo

 

[mostlylurking]

I think too low acetylcholine

@mostlylurking Great post! btw, do you know if Benfothiamin also depletes glutathione ? I had the same issue with TTFD, but I get a better response from Benfo, but still seem to have a lot of "refeeding" type symptoms. Going high on HCL drops my blood sugar like crazy, I don't have that with Benfo

I don't know about Benfothiamin. The TTFD doesn't work the same as regular thiamine; it is supposed to get into the cells without help? Anyhow, it requires glutathione to work and so it tends to lower the supply.

Thiamine is helps the body burn sugar as fuel. Burning sugar lowers the sugar level in the blood. So it is helpful to supply more via a healthy diet and try to keep the blood sugar level stable. I usually get hungry about an hour or so after taking thiamine hcl, so I eat a meal, usually milk with gelatin and a tablespoon of sugar and some fruit.

What do you mean by "refeeding" type symptoms?

I've never tried benfothiamin; I've only tried TTFD, then stuck with thiamine hcl.

 

[Bart1]

I don't know about Benfothiamin. The TTFD doesn't work the same as regular thiamine; it is supposed to get into the cells without help? Anyhow, it requires glutathione to work and so it tends to lower the supply.

Thiamine is helps the body burn sugar as fuel. Burning sugar lowers the sugar level in the blood. So it is helpful to supply more via a healthy diet and try to keep the blood sugar level stable. I usually get hungry about an hour or so after taking thiamine hcl, so I eat a meal, usually milk with gelatin and a tablespoon of sugar and some fruit.

What do you mean by "refeeding" type symptoms?

I've never tried benfothiamin; I've only tried TTFD, then stuck with thiamine hcl.

Yes I know about TTFD causing (temporarily) depletion of glutathione, but dunno if it also applies to benfo, but my experience/suspicion is that it’s less of an issue

HCL immediately lowers my blood sugar and on an empty stomach causing a stress response for me. I do have to say I tried 100mg, so maybe that’s too much and I should try it more gradually. Taking it with a meal don’t seem to cause the issue but then I worry about how much is absorbed

Paradoxical reactions like a worsening of symptoms caused by deficiency state

Benfo seems to be more powerful then plain hcl.

 

[mostlylurking]

Yes I know about TTFD causing (temporarily) depletion of glutathione, but dunno if it also applies to benfo, but my experience/suspicion is that it’s less of an issue

HCL immediately lowers my blood sugar and on an empty stomach causing a stress response for me. I do have to say I tried 100mg, so maybe that’s too much and I should try it more gradually. Taking it with a meal don’t seem to cause the issue but then I worry about how much is absorbed

Paradoxical reactions like a worsening of symptoms caused by deficiency state

Benfo seems to be more powerful then plain hcl.

I was low in glutathione for years, probably due to my heavy metals load. Thiamine hcl raised my glutathione back to the normal range. It corrected my cerebral symptoms too. So I'm a fan of the hcl type of thiamine (high dose).

Dr. Costantini wasn't a fan of benfotiamine. There's a study (somewhere) that "proves" benfotiamine doesn't get past the blood/brain barrier. Dr. Costantini said thiamine hcl gets through just fine as long as the body is flooded with it (high doses). Elliot Overton has said that if you can't tolerate the TTFD type of thiamine then benfotiamine is the next best thing. So obviously there are conflicting opinions about it. I simply don't know who's right about this.

There seem to be a lot of positive articles on pubmed about benfotiamine and the brain: benfotiamine and the brain - Search Results - PubMed

Maybe Dr. Costantini was just personally partial to thiamine hcl because that's what worked on his Parkinson's Disease patients? I don't know.

 

[mostlylurking]

HCL immediately lowers my blood sugar and on an empty stomach causing a stress response for me.

I think it would be a good idea to eat a meal first, wait 30 minutes (at least), then take the thiamine. Then wait at least 30 minutes before eating again.

 

[Bart1]

I was low in glutathione for years, probably due to my heavy metals load. Thiamine hcl raised my glutathione back to the normal range. It corrected my cerebral symptoms too. So I'm a fan of the hcl type of thiamine (high dose).

Dr. Costantini wasn't a fan of benfotiamine. There's a study (somewhere) that "proves" benfotiamine doesn't get past the blood/brain barrier. Dr. Costantini said thiamine hcl gets through just fine as long as the body is flooded with it (high doses). Elliot Overton has said that if you can't tolerate the TTFD type of thiamine then benfotiamine is the next best thing. So obviously there are conflicting opinions about it. I simply don't know who's right about this.

There seem to be a lot of positive articles on pubmed about benfotiamine and the brain: benfotiamine and the brain - Search Results - PubMed

Maybe Dr. Costantini was just personally partial to thiamine hcl because that's what worked on his Parkinson's Disease patients? I don't know.

Yeah, I also heard dr Chandler Marrs (co-author of Lonsdale's Thiamin deficiency disease, disautonomia...") talk positive about bento reaching the brain since it has been used positively in studies for Alzheimers.

Yeah 30 minutes after a meal could be a good one for thiamin HCL

 

[mostlylurking]

Yeah, I also heard dr Chandler Marrs (co-author of Lonsdale's Thiamin deficiency disease, disautonomia...") talk positive about bento reaching the brain since it has been used positively in studies for Alzheimers.

Yeah 30 minutes after a meal could be a good one for thiamin HCL

30 minutes after a meal would be the minimum amount of time to wait. I think maybe an hour would be better. You want all the sugar in the meal to be absorbed via the intestine before taking the thiamine.

 

[ivy]

You really have the ability to read between the lines!
Definitely there seems to be an emotional/behavioural aspect to all of this. Some alternative practitioners have suggested this to me. When it all began when I was feeling trapped by all the obligations that come with taking care of my three children, non-stop, no free time.
Moreover, I tend rationalize everything, having difficulties with letting myself go. I was already more health conscious than the average, but this got more obsessional after the mysterious episodes of fatigue started, trying to figure how to solve it.
Unfortunately here in Peatland few people seem to pay close attention to the role of emotions in health



You made me interested in the possibilities of biodanza.
However I live in a small city in Spain, and I am afraid that there is not much offer here. I'll see if I find something.
I see that one of the strengths of biodanza may be that it is a relational activity, practiced in pairs or groups, but can I learn some basic techniques by myself?
Do you know other disciplines / practices that could offer possibilities similar to biodanza?

Sorry, I don't know of any similar practices. And I don't think any kind of solipsistic activity will help you much. Even yoga, if you are invited to observe yourself, might increase your anxiety. If you want my honest opinion, you need to exit mental exertion and experience sensation and embodiment on their own, with no additional observation of yourself. Bathing in the sea, walking barefoot in the woods, spending time around animals might be helpful. But a bigger change is necessary...

 

[Bart1]

@mostlylurking would love your experience on this: Elliot Overton, Lonsdale, Marrs are proponents of Keto next to thiamin repletion for overcoming thiamin defiency syndrome. I remember reading a post from Lonsdale saying to someone he could never recover unless he stopped the sugar. It was regarding cyclic vomiting so I guess temporarily stopping could help.

I hope and believe that carbs (not refined carbs or pure sugar) can be used next to taking thiamin and recover.

I mean for instance TTFD was designed in Japan and helped the beri beri pandemic of people eating too much white rice.

I cannot do Keto and I don’t think it’s healthy but I do feel that when I start increasing my carbs my symptoms of thiamin defiency become worse. Maybe I should increase thiamin first and when I get more hungry slowly add in more carbs

Were you be able to recover even with carbs/sugar? Does Constatini say anything about the subject?

 

[mostlylurking]

@mostlylurking would love your experience on this: Elliot Overton, Lonsdale, Marrs are proponents of Keto next to thiamin repletion for overcoming thiamin defiency syndrome. I remember reading a post from Lonsdale saying to someone he could never recover unless he stopped the sugar. It was regarding cyclic vomiting so I guess temporarily stopping could help.

I hope and believe that carbs (not refined carbs or pure sugar) can be used next to taking thiamin and recover.

I mean for instance TTFD was designed in Japan and helped the beri beri pandemic of people eating too much white rice.

I cannot do Keto and I don’t think it’s healthy but I do feel that when I start increasing my carbs my symptoms of thiamin defiency become worse. Maybe I should increase thiamin first and when I get more hungry slowly add in more carbs

Were you be able to recover even with carbs/sugar? Does Constatini say anything about the subject?

Hi @Bart1, Yes, I was able to recover while still drinking my orange juice but I did cut out all other sugars and starches for a while (except for milk sugar as I have a high dairy diet). If you study Dr. Lonsdale's work, he says he has no problem with people eating fruit, but fruit juice has too much sugar in relation to the amount of fiber. So I don't think that Dr. Lonsdale is as rabidly against healthy sugars as Dr. Chandler Marrs seems to be. Dr. Costantini told patients to just eat a "healthy diet" and to limit wine (he treated patients in Italy) to one glass a day and coffee to one cup a day.

The timing is also important. Dr. Costantini made a point about never taking thiamine with anything sweet, to just use water when taking thiamine. He also said to space carbs/sweets and also the single cup of coffee and that wine away from the time you take the thiamine. I space sweets/carbs (mainly OJ) at least 30 minutes before and also after taking thiamine. I gave up alcohol and also coffee & tea completely.

I don't think that keto is healthy either. My theory is that the amount of carbs you eat needs to be in sync with the amount you are able to deal with via your thiamine intake. I believe the point of taking thiamine is to help you be able to metabolize sugar/healthy carbs in a healthy manner.

 

[Bart1]

Hi @Bart1, Yes, I was able to recover while still drinking my orange juice but I did cut out all other sugars and starches for a while (except for milk sugar as I have a high dairy diet). If you study Dr. Lonsdale's work, he says he has no problem with people eating fruit, but fruit juice has too much sugar in relation to the amount of fiber. So I don't think that Dr. Lonsdale is as rabidly against healthy sugars as Dr. Chandler Marrs seems to be. Dr. Costantini told patients to just eat a "healthy diet" and to limit wine (he treated patients in Italy) to one glass a day and coffee to one cup a day.

The timing is also important. Dr. Costantini made a point about never taking thiamine with anything sweet, to just use water when taking thiamine. He also said to space carbs/sweets and also the single cup of coffee and that wine away from the time you take the thiamine. I space sweets/carbs (mainly OJ) at least 30 minutes before and also after taking thiamine. I gave up alcohol and also coffee & tea completely.

I don't think that keto is healthy either. My theory is that the amount of carbs you eat needs to be in sync with the amount you are able to deal with via your thiamine intake. I believe the point of taking thiamine is to help you be able to metabolize sugar/healthy carbs in a healthy manner.

Thanks that's good to hear. Yeah I don't do well with fruit juice. I immediately get dizzy. Actually OJ is one of the few I can somewhat tolerate. Do you think Thiamin increase the need for carbs/calories or is it the other way around? I feel for me it's the other way around. As soon as I start to eat more, I get symptoms of thiamin defiency. I'm in a tough spot, trying to raise metabolism and support it with more nutrients but somehow I react poorly to more carbs especially, I don't want to eat more fat I think 75 grams is enough and protein is about 130-140 grams so I think the main increase in calories in my diet need to come from carbohydrates.

 

[mostlylurking]

Thanks that's good to hear. Yeah I don't do well with fruit juice. I immediately get dizzy. Actually OJ is one of the few I can somewhat tolerate. Do you think Thiamin increase the need for carbs/calories or is it the other way around? I feel for me it's the other way around. As soon as I start to eat more, I get symptoms of thiamin defiency. I'm in a tough spot, trying to raise metabolism and support it with more nutrients but somehow I react poorly to more carbs especially, I don't want to eat more fat I think 75 grams is enough and protein is about 130-140 grams so I think the main increase in calories in my diet need to come from carbohydrates.

Carbs increase the need for thiamine and high dose thiamine makes you hungry because thiamine helps in the utilization of glucose as fuel so it will lower your blood sugar which will make you feel hungry. I try to eat something like 16 - 20 oz. of milk with gelatin and a tablespoon of sugar in it (add some vanilla and you've got melted vanilla ice cream). That has 27-31 grams of protein in it and it's voluminous so it works pretty well. If I feel hungry again, I'll eat again.

If you react negatively to carbs then focus on dairy, eggs, some OJ; maybe all three together blended into a shake. I think you might be reacting negatively to the carbs because you might not be taking enough thiamine? You might need to test higher doses and learn how you respond.

 

[mostlylurking]

I react poorly to more carbs especially, I don't want to eat more fat I think 75 grams is enough and protein is about 130-140 grams so I think the main increase in calories in my diet need to come from carbohydrates.

Although those numbers sound good, you may need to increase them for a short time to get to a better spot. If your body is reacting badly to carbs and you're hungry, I think that more milk/dairy is a good way to go. Listen to your body.

 

[Bart1]

Although those numbers sound good, you may need to increase them for a short time to get to a better spot. If your body is reacting badly to carbs and you're hungry, I think that more milk/dairy is a good way to go. Listen to your body.

Awesome thank you! I think so too I will increase my milk. I’m at 200mg of Benfothiamine and 100mg of TTFD. I think I will to to 300mg of Benfothiamine and maybe start experimenting again with thiaminHCL as an addition, like you said at least 30min after a meal. Or I will raise TTFD further..